Torch place because of guerillas --> uncomfortable 'nam parralels

So Vader's total lack of compassion and the level of hate in him is not and indication of the Empire's cruelty? How about how Tarkin was going to blow up a planet that was inhabited just to show the power of their new weapon? Citizen's rights, food, water and property being taken away for the Empire? Those that speak out against the Empire are arrested and/or executed? Whole races attacked and pushed to extinction?

All of this happened before a strong resistance was even formed. So yes, the Empire is driven by the Sith Lords who follow the Dark Side that encourages inhuman acts and oppression.

I think Vulf's...um..essay...was a little tongue in cheek.

Not sure where you are getting a "bunch of Jedi". There is one former padawan who is trying to teach a new padawan. Not like there is a lot of them.

You say cookie cutter characters, but I see the beginning of characters with depth. I've read the prequel to Rebels and read the Kannan comic and he's pretty interesting. I don't see him as being cookie cutter. I don't see Hera as being cookie cutter. The big guy can be pretty cookie cutter, as can the orphan. I think you are judging it too harshly.

When I first started with Clone Wars, there are some exact cookie cutter situations going on there. The thing is, they improved as the show went on. Maybe you should go back and re-watch Season 1 of TCW again?

As for one planet, there were a few episodes they didn't state what planet they were on. The one with the Imperial training school was unknown. They had adventures in random space, but they didn't go to another planet. They were a local cell, though. Local....as in...around one spot?

Still, you seem to have made up your mind and anything I say won't matter.

Wow, what a lame statement to end on, amigo...

Look, I've got "Rebels" on the DVR, and I'll watch it when I can (usually the next day). Because it's Star Wars! But, yeah, the series drives me nuts.

According to "Star Wars," [the Jedi's] fire has gone out of the universe. Vader is the last of their "ancient religion." Luke and Leia? They're the last hope.

So here we have a padawan who not only survived but is using his lightsaber and training another Force-sensitive student ... who happens to (very quickly, mind you!) build his own lightsaber-stunblast-gun. And they're both tracked down by .... NOT Vader. But one of what we assume to be many "inquisitors." And this inquisitor carries a lightsaber, which also happens to spin around a little disc and can form two blades with 'whirling cyclone action.' TM

Anyway, Ezra's being set up to be 'a very big deal.' And in the SW universe I grew up with? There are no 'big deals' other than Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, and the Skywalker family.

These two Jedi also happen to be on a ship with a bunch of other people/things/beings, not one of which we know a **** thing about. Are they friends? Escaped prisoners? Tied together through families? Who knows? The writers don't seem to think we mind. (We do.) Do they at least have interesting personalities? Well, we have (a) annoying hotshot kid ... with a destiny! (b) tortured bad*ss 'cowboy Jedi,' (c ) a pilot, (d) a person who likes graffiti, (e) Grumpy Cat, and (f) quirky droid who's basically just R2-D2 ... with more slapstick potential. (And, boy, does this show love its slapstick!) That's it.

Their ship? Well, it's okay, I guess. Oh wait... There's a little fighter ship that can pop out the back and fly around and waste TIE Fighters, reminiscent of the fighter that came out of the back of the Phoenix in "Battle of the Planets" (or "Gatchaman"). Except that was action-packed, way-over-the-top anime. And this is from the franchise that brought us the Hoth battle and Order 66.

Finally, this group of ciphers may call themselves a 'cell.' But they don't even know what they're attached to until the end of the first season (beginning of the second season). So there's literally no reason to hang around one planet ... just because Hera has a 'contact.' The far superior (IMHO) Clone Wars series took us all over the SW galaxy almost immediately. Because, you know, that's part of what's cool about Star Wars - the different planets and settings AND SPACE.

I've already gone over why I LOATHE the incidental music. So no need to rehash that. (But this might just be the thing that leaves the biggest stain on the OT.)

In the end, this show has been a tremendous disappointment. Not one individual show has had me hooked. And all of the annoyances I've already listed have just served to turn boring scripts into infuriating on-screen episodes.

Yet I keep crossing my fingers that it will all get better. I mean, Ahsoka is back, and we've gotten hints we'll see Hondo and Rex. So who knows? Maybe Filoni was under some Disney edict to make "Rebels"' first season as kid-friendly and as simplistic as possible so as not to confuse new - and presumably younger - viewers. "Plus, can you make some cool toy-riffic lightsabers with 'whirling cyclone action' TM and 'super-stun sensational' TM blaster add-ons?" Haha. (Yes, I'm amusing myself...)

I keep reading that some of you thought "Clone Wars" was trifling, while "Rebels"' plotlines have got you salivating for more. I just don't see it, as "political machinations, struggles of morality, and huge epic battles amidst awe-inspiring locales" seems a LOT better than "snarky banter while flying around a planet making the Imperial occupation force look like Keystone Cops."

But, hey, different strokes for different folks.

PS - A viewer should NEVER be expected to have read a comic or novel to get the complete story of a television series or film. A TV show or film should always be able to stand on its own.

I think Vulf's...um..essay...was a little tongue in cheek.

According to "Star Wars," [the Jedi's] fire has gone out of the universe. Vader is the last of their "ancient religion." Luke and Leia? They're the last hope.

The last of their religion thing was something Tarkin said to Vader. Honestly, what does he know? He thought they were extinct yet two of the most famous and most prominent on the Jedi Council of old survived Order 66. He was making a bold statement due to the fact that those two are presumed dead and honestly, in front of others, why would he ever claim there were Jedi still alive? They brought hope to people, something The Empire does a lot to eradicate.

Finally, this group of ciphers may call themselves a 'cell.'

I was pretty sure they never referred to themselves as a cell until the reveal of Fulcrom and that there were other Rebels. I'm sure Hera had an idea but the rest didn't know anything.

The far superior (IMHO) Clone Wars series took us all over the SW galaxy almost immediately. Because, you know, that's part of what's cool abut Star Wars - the different planets and settings AND SPACE.

Right. They brought us to a couple new planets thank goodness. Could you imagine if they only had the characters on the same 11 planets from the movies? That would stink. Goodness, now that I think about it, they spent 6 movies on only 11 planets. Some of those planets are only shown for a few minutes like Fellucia. There are other planets that are mentioned (Dantooine, Ord Mantell) and there are ones that are only shown from space (Alderaan). Technically, out of those 11 planets in the movies, only 9 are planets. One is a forest moon of Endor, the other is the fourth moon of Yavin.

So yeah, 9 planets.

"snarky banter while flying around a planet making the Imperial occupation force look like Keystone Cops."

This is basically a description of the OT. Just replace planet with Galaxy.

PS - A viewer should NEVER be expected to have read a comic or novel to get the complete story of a television series or film. A TV show or film should always be able to stand on its own.

So I guess the movies should be able to stand on their own, without the need of The Clone Wars filling in one of the most interesting and often referred to times in the Star Wars timeline? I mean basically what you're saying here is the EU shouldn't exist and only the movies should be a thing. We would know so little of the Star Wars universe to this day if there was no EU.

Opinions noted.

I have yet to see what these Imperial atrocities are outside of Extended Universe. Watching the Clone Wars it seems the Republic was the one oppressing planets that wanted to secede.

Palpatine was democratically elected and given emergency powers. The Jedi council tried to assassinate him in the third of the prequels. This in fact makes the Jedis traitors. The younglings that Darth Vader mercy killed had already been brainwashed into religious extremist zealots after being taken away from their families. If there was any chance to redeem them, they would have made excellent Royal Guardsmen, but the Jedi indoctrination through mental abuse and trauma is too strong.

The destruction of Alderan was a swift action of mercy as well. How many lives would be needlessly spent in the horror of a prolonged planetary invasion? If the Rebellion hadn't been successful in their terrorist actions at Yavin, the war would have been ended and peace would have been restored.

OK, uncle Owen and aunt Peru were disintegrated by Storm Troopers. But they did aid and abet a known traitor, Obiwan Kenobi. Also we never see them killed. We have no idea if they turned violent and provoked the Storm Troopers into defending themselves. Living so close to wild tribes of Tusken Raiders, they doubtlessly had weapons and knew how to use them. In fact, apart from the circumstantial evidence of Obiwan claiming that Storm Troopers attacked the Jawas (are Storm Troopers ever shown as precise shots on screen?) we have no way of knowing who killed Luke's guardians.

Rebels. The corny intro guy on Clone Wars made me want to flip tables. I understand it's a war, but the stories were too spread out and random. It felt like a cop out. Rebels genuinely feels like it is being established as canon.

I have yet to see what these Imperial atrocities are outside of Extended Universe. Watching the Clone Wars it seems the Republic was the one oppressing planets that wanted to secede.

Palpatine was democratically elected and given emergency powers. The Jedi council tried to assassinate him in the third of the prequels. This in fact makes the Jedis traitors. The younglings that Darth Vader mercy killed had already been brainwashed into religious extremist zealots after being taken away from their families. If there was any chance to redeem them, they would have made excellent Royal Guardsmen, but the Jedi indoctrination through mental abuse and trauma is too strong.

The destruction of Alderan was a swift action of mercy as well. How many lives would be needlessly spent in the horror of a prolonged planetary invasion? If the Rebellion hadn't been successful in their terrorist actions at Yavin, the war would have been ended and peace would have been restored.

OK, uncle Owen and aunt Peru were disintegrated by Storm Troopers. But they did aid and abet a known traitor, Obiwan Kenobi. Also we never see them killed. We have no idea if they turned violent and provoked the Storm Troopers into defending themselves. Living so close to wild tribes of Tusken Raiders, they doubtlessly had weapons and knew how to use them. In fact, apart from the circumstantial evidence of Obiwan claiming that Storm Troopers attacked the Jawas (are Storm Troopers ever shown as precise shots on screen?) we have no way of knowing who killed Luke's guardians.

Palpatine was indeed democratically elected (through careful - and eeeevil - manipulation) ... 20 years before the original "Star Wars!" Staying in power that long and changing your title to 'Emperor?' And using your army as an occupation force across the galaxy to inspire fear and obedience? Yeah, not cool.

And you're actually defending the instantaneous deaths of more than a billion people?!? Most, if not all, of them civilians and 'peaceniks?' C'mon, man. That's just ridiculous.

The incineration of Owen and Beru was also uncalled for. Especially considering we know that stormtroopers' blaster rifles have a stun setting.

I have no idea why you're trying to glamorize the Empire, but just know your arguments are faulty.

...except for those regarding the Jedi and Republic before and during the Clone Wars. Yeah, according to both the prequels and Clone Wars series, the "good guys" were, perhaps, not exactly handling things the best way possible. And they had clearly let a lot of tradition and apathy get in the way of maintaining a pulse on the galaxy at large.

But, again, these are subjects that are clearly discussed in both the films and television series. Nothing new here.

Rebels, because it's not The Prequel Era.

Don't get me wrong. A little part of me loves the prequels and what they have to offer.

But I had to sit through "JEDI JEDI JEDI CLONE WARS CLONE WARS CLONE WARS SITH SITH SITH" for like, over a decade. I like it well enough but I'm tired of it.

I loved the Clone Wars. Have only seen the intro episode to Rebels. Rebels looks decent enough, but I really got into Clone Wars when that was airing. I loved seeing all this EU stuff being incorporated into the TV show. The Mandalore episodes were some of my favorites. I also really enjoyed those little moments where Anakin's darker side came out.

I wish Rebels would be put on StarWars.com like Clone Wars was. I'll see it eventually, and I suspect I'll like both series equally well.

I loved the Clone Wars. Have only seen the intro episode to Rebels. Rebels looks decent enough, but I really got into Clone Wars when that was airing. I loved seeing all this EU stuff being incorporated into the TV show. The Mandalore episodes were some of my favorites. I also really enjoyed those little moments where Anakin's darker side came out.

I wish Rebels would be put on StarWars.com like Clone Wars was. I'll see it eventually, and I suspect I'll like both series equally well.

Star Wars.com did have Rebels episodes for a while when it was first starting. You can get them on Amazon / iTunes as well. Also - the Blu-Ray dropped today I think.

Personally I think rebels is a huge disappointment.

The entire show can be categorized in 1 word: Gimmick.

If it wasn't star wars, I doubt any of you would care about it. Its nothing more then a 5 yr old Disney cartoon with a star wars paint job slapped on top.

I loved the Clone Wars. Have only seen the intro episode to Rebels. Rebels looks decent enough, but I really got into Clone Wars when that was airing. I loved seeing all this EU stuff being incorporated into the TV show. The Mandalore episodes were some of my favorites. I also really enjoyed those little moments where Anakin's darker side came out.

I wish Rebels would be put on StarWars.com like Clone Wars was. I'll see it eventually, and I suspect I'll like both series equally well.

Star Wars.com did have Rebels episodes for a while when it was first starting. You can get them on Amazon / iTunes as well. Also - the Blu-Ray dropped today I think.

Yeah. Evidently they played the whole series online during Star Wars Celebration VII. For better or worse, I was at the convention instead of at home watching TV shows online. At least I got cool pictures like this (I'm the Jedi):

PS - A viewer should NEVER be expected to have read a comic or novel to get the complete story of a television series or film. A TV show or film should always be able to stand on its own.

This is actually counter to how LucasFilm Story Group is operating now - one story in different media - cohesive, managed, and organized. And yes, the story stands on it's own. You don't need to read the New Dawn book or the Kanan comic to get that background - but it's there if you want it and it will be consistent with the show (ie - there should be no more conflicts between books / movies / shows / games)

Rebels is great. You'll like it or you won't. In my opinion - most people that don't suffer from 'good old days syndrome' and aren't able to see the originals for what they really were as well. What back story did you get with Tarkin in EIV? None. He was an archetype. This entire story is archetype - (ie: Cookie cutter)

Once CW hit its stride it was really great. While I love Rebels, it needs to do the same; they need to stop focusing so much on Ezra (and fix his goat face) and get a real storyline going. At this point, I'm more interested in the rest of the crew's backstories. TBH, Ezra comes off to me as stilted and kinda boring.

I can't imagine the kind of person who's taste would cause them to pick Rebels over Clone Wars at this point.

Rebels because of the characters, but I'd be lying if I said I've seen much Clone Wars.

Everyone that is in love with Clone Wars (I don't hate it) but hates Rebels understands it is run and basically created by the same guys that did Clone Wars right? All the new characters, the bones of the story, all from the same people (even Kevin Kiner - same composer). Season 2 connects it even more with CW. There has to be a defined arc for it since they have established where it is in the timeline. By the time it is done I expect many naysayers will be saying similar (Season 1 - meh but it became great).

And, the 'skin' is inspired by Ralph McQuarrie. I can't imagine the kind of person whos joy in the Star Wars universe would get checked at the door for this show that is more true to the spirit of the original Star Wars material than anything post 1983.

Maybe folks that don't understand the musical nuance of what Kiner is doing with Williams' score don't appreciate the brilliance of what he is doing with Rebels. Maybe if you've never really looked at McQuarrie's original concepts for Chewbacca you can't appreciate what a love letter the design of Zeb actually is. How they integrated a Kenner Star Wars toy that was never in the original films into the show making it a canon vehicle and again showing the love for the past. Is the show dark and tormented and brooding? No - but when has that ever been what Star Wars is about. It is space opera fantasy. For me - Season 2 can't get here soon enough.

(shrug - different strokes for different folks)

I just can't understand how people can love the Clone Wars and yet hate Rebels. Rebels is far, far more Star Wars than Clone Wars. I question why people got into this fandom in the first place.

I think a substantial portion of the bitterness comes from the fact that the clone wars had really hit a full stride when it was canned. They see Rebels not as a cool new thing but as the death of the cool old thing.

Everyone that is in love with Clone Wars (I don't hate it) but hates Rebels understands it is run and basically created by the same guys that did Clone Wars right?

So what?

The guy who made Babylon 5 is the same guy that made the One More Day storyline in Spider-man. One one of the best sci-fi TV series ever made. The other is one of the worst Spider-man stories ever written.

Just because it's the same people doesn't mean they're equally as good.

Clone Wars was very hit or miss and burdened with all the flaws inherent in the prequel trilogy's subject matter, but it actually managed to pull some decent stuff at times.

Rebels has the advantage of not being set during the prequels but still manages to completely fumble it most of the time. It's watchable, but it feels like it is aimed directly at children and frequently manages to be extraordinarily cringe-inducing. The main characters are so improbably skilled and arrogantly self-confident in all but the most dangerous situations, and combined with the frustratingly bumbling manner in which the Imperials are portrayed it makes most of the conflicts lack any sense of tension or believability. Some of the characters are okay enough, but Ezra and Sabine in particular do not feel like they belong in the star wars universe. The way they behave, talk, carry themselves, etc. feels way too much like people from our own society and culture rather than that of Star Wars.

Clone Wars was very inconsistent in tone, but Rebels is extremely biased toward being a kids show rather than "all-ages" entertainment. Personally, I found clone wars much more tolerable.

The main characters are so improbably skilled and arrogantly self-confident in all but the most dangerous situations, and combined with the frustratingly bumbling manner in which the Imperials are portrayed it makes most of the conflicts lack any sense of tension or believability.

I think you need to re-familiarize yourself with the source material.