I think 60% unique is excellent for game flavor.

I'm having a hard time siding with you Stags. I think maintaining a strict gold curve which guarantees a high-card flop is an obvious part of the game. If the decks have a high number of low cost cards, few with the limited keyword, then you should be able to reliably flop 5 cards unless your deck is an army deck or some other theme that really depends on high cost cards.

If the real complaint is that people are building decks that get higher flops than yours I'd say that you should be looking to your gold curve for characters and locations. Please understand I'm not trying to tell you how to play or build, just pointing out that deck that is composed of 60% unique characters and still getting out 5 card flops contradicts (at least to me) the idea that the deck is full of generic no names. If a swarm or weenie deck is any deck which effectively uses weenies as cannon fodder and foot soldiers to supplement the cavalry and officers, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree. That is how armies are fielded for a reason. It wins military battles. It is efficient, gets the job done, and lets the specialized units do what they need to do while the grunts keep everyone else busy, and yes, pay the cost when necessary.

It is no different in power struggles or intrigue gambits. The major conspirators define the strategy, and direct their subordinates, minions, and unwilling or unknowing accomplices do all the grunt work and get the axe when caught.

I don't think a weenie reset plot will have the effect you think it will if these are the types of decks you are facing.

A swarm/weenie deck to me pretty much always relies on the lowest cost characters possible, especially the ones with stealth or deadly, and flooding the board. Forcing the reset as early as possible and re-flooding the board and just opposing every challenge when possible and sending more characters at them than they can manage. You may have 4 or 5 characters in a 35-40 character with a cost of 3-5 depending on their abilities and whether they can act like a hammer when the little guys can't get the job done. About the only thing that really stops this kind of deck from a plot perspective is multiple resets. What they are is of little importance, it is just keeping the numbers down to manageable levels as often as possible. Multi-claim plots, strong ability to defend, ways of grabbing and protecting your power, are the best ways of getting through a swarm deck when backed up by multiple resets... though I suspect you know all of that.

The problem is First Snow never hurt my weenie decks. No single reset ever does. What it did was destroy my decks that depended on utilitarian low strength characters to fill a hole in my regular decks. My various maesters in Martell, my holy crested characters in Greyjoy, etc. where the ones getting wiped out, meaning my draw was crippled, or a sudden loss of my intrigue icons.

Stag Lord said:

I think his point is that if weenie rush is what is comprising a large amount of the decks up your way, then two guys with intimidate with a Support between them should be getting 3 unopposed challenges pretty much every turn with an Assertion of Might and dominance I'm guessing they are wrapping up games in 4 turns pretty reliably. If they aren't why not? Greyjoy should have the saves to prevent the loss of Military challenges being an issue, aren't horribly reliant on keeping cards in hand so minimizes Intrigue, and should be getting off their challenges first and more often against a weenie deck. Even one running negative attachments shouldn't be able to slow them down much. Unless of course they really aren't weenie decks and have a fair amount of stronger guys or other major components that keep the scales balanced.

I'm flopping five or six cards consistently just as much as the next guy. Both Targ and Bara have a plethora of low cost utiltiy characters that you can get way wiht running 3 x of. I'll play the popular and winning strategies right along with the pack - i'm not too principled to not copy a winning tactic.

I don't like them though. That's my issue. I have disliked swarm decks since white weenie was the rage in MtG. And whenever the metagame has titled towards this build in this game, I have been the first guy to pick up the pitchfork and the torch.

i do think it stagnates the game, both in strategic deck building and in tactical play. I'm with you on not specifically calling for FS to be repinted (as much as I LOVED hte Plot) becuase of the power creep it leads/led to in design space. But i think the game would see more variety and different designs if there were a clear drawback to the swarm strategy in the card pool. One Plot that swept aside all these little generics ALONG with Valar would go a long way to achieving this end.

It doesn't have to be about resets though, there are other means you can control Swarm.

I don't remember the new name, but they just printed a new only 1 attacker only 1 defender plot, and it's 4 gold I think so that could be used for anti-swarm, assuming that you'll have someone bigger to win that is. Vs Greyjoy swarm with those dang longships this would probably just blow up in your face.

There's also Herding the Masses. It may not help defend against a swarm deck, but if you get to go on the offensive vs a swarm deck odds are you'll hurt them very badly and most challenges will probably be unopposed.

Noose and Swordpoint might also make a swarm deck think carefully before heavily commiting during challenges if the opponent knows most of his swarm won't stand up again. (Not effective vs Shadow Tunnels swarm)

Personally I think what I'd like to see more than a specific reset would be a plot that was something like "When revealed kneel all characters 2 str (or cost - either printed or not either would be good) or lower.

Or maybe a Marshalling control plot.... Say "Players may not play non-unique characters during Marshalling." Or players may not play more than 2 or 3 characters during marshalling.

The point is I agree I'd maybe like to see some more swarm type control plots or effects, but I'd prefer to see non reset ones, if only for the sake of having more options and variety.

Concerning the large flops and swarming: am I the only one, or does anybody else feel like the refugees haven't really been that good for the game? I would say their existence in the environment leads to having to build them into your deck, and they simply make weenie swarming and making huge flops too easy. And they are the chief card that feels like generic weenie X, since they don't even have any house flavor. I would be much more okay if the weenies were at least 1 gold characters with 1/2 icons and the house keyword (or some other house flavor). But these guys just feel... boring. And take away from the general feel of the game.

Just a thought.

* Raises hand in agreement *

I don't love them, but I don't have a problem with them. I think they get soaked up so quickly to claim or dominance that they usually aren't much of a factor compared to any other bit of cannon-fodder.

WWDrakey said:

I thought they complemented both sides quite well (weenie and (big) meenie) because it makes it's easier to have some claim soak when you have to shell out for your bigger characters.

If they ahd the limited keyword though they would be abit more balanced.

desolate passage is a favored plot around here. herding the masses used to see some play too. plus, isn't there a plot that says somethign like characters with 2 str or less cannot stand in the standing phase? seems like a good weenie control plot to me....

I agree that First snow does not need to come back.