The commentators say Davy has explicitly said hand measuring is not allowed, but is it actually in the core or tournament rules at this time? (Maybe I missed it..Not saying it should be allowed, just wondering)

any sort of pre measuring is not allowed, regardless if it is a template or fingers. That is stated in the rules of Tournament play. It falls along the lines of if you place the template for a boost or BR you must do it if you fit.

What about mental premeasuring?

" *suppressed smile* I'm sorry but you missed your opportunity."

Some people get angry but that's because they aren't flying casual.

Maybe you're not as good at suppressing that smirk as you think you are.

Hah, yes. Smirk is a better word.

The rules don't tell us we can't pre measure. They tell us what we must do (estimate in our heads) but do not tell us what we can't do. Except use the maneuver templates to pre-measure.

They also don't tell us that we can't take a hammer, smash all your opponent's ships and declare a win. By your twisted logic that would be legal.

Well, I don't know the rules 100%, there's probably a clause in there somewhere that stipulates not moving someone else's ships, which would prevent you smashing them with a hammer.

And quite apart from that, damaging someone else's property is illegal. So there's that.

But let's leave that aside for a moment, and talk about something actually interesting:

when does pointing and gesturing become pre-measuring? What, exactly, is allowed and what isn't?

By your logic, you are not "moving" their ships, the hammer is. You have to be a troll. How is this thread still going?

The rules don't tell us we can't pre measure. They tell us what we must do (estimate in our heads) but do not tell us what we can't do. Except use the maneuver templates to pre-measure.

They also don't tell us that we can't take a hammer, smash all your opponent's ships and declare a win. By your twisted logic that would be legal.

#rulesnotclear

If he could flip the table over in his head.... Perfectly legal!

Wait so as long as it's not the maneuver templates that belong to the game that's not strictly forbidden so it's okay, right? Does that mean I get to use these?

If the other guy says so and you let him use it too.

If the other guy says so and you let him use it too.

Woah now the rules don't say I have to do that!

(Both of these posts are certainly sarcastic if that's unclear)

I have only used my fingers to pre-measure a move once and only once.

I was playing against a dual IG list and my opponent had been using his fingers to pre-measure some moves. Not all the time mind you but often enough for me to notice. I figured he was a new player, not confident in his moves or just someone that didn't have the time to play often enough to do without it, so I let it slide much to the dismay of the table next to us.

So a few turns later I placed all my dials, WAY before my opponent did. Whilst he was deciding on where his last remaining ship should go, I was very clearly leaning over the table, drawing lines from my StarViper to where I thought a two turn right would go. I was mumbling to myself, thinking through if the turn would clear the rock and get me into flanking position of the enemy IG.

My opponent picked up his dial and changed his manoeuvre, I can only assume due to this new information. . .

When it came to moving, his IG88B adv. sensors to focus and then S-Loops, right into firing arc of where I was drawing my fingers. *gasp!* He had me!!

I revealed the Viper dial. . . and S-Looped to his flank, out of his firing arc, at range 1, with a focus and target lock. (go GURI !)

Like the Diamond Cutter, he never saw it coming. .

Them mind games.

I recently played an opponent who was extremely easy to read. After I would move my Academies, I would watch his reaction to know if I should barrel roll to block his high pilot skill ships or not. I got several good blocks in that game resulting in a win lol

Stop premeasuring your opponent! Not flying casual!

/sarcasm

Well, I didn't read him with my mind, so I guess I was premeasuring!

Wow, Lotta angry folks on this.

I've done and see people do similar things throughout my entire gaming life. Measuring two points that are not fixed is not the same as premeasuring. It is inherently still a guess, just perhaps a more accurate one.

Using your thumb and forefinger can be a bit shadier just because a player could have just measured it against the template and held the pose long enough to check the maneuver. But I've always just placed my finger on the board roughly where I think whatever length ends.

Now, I understand that this is specifically forbidden in the rules of X-wing; but that isn't the case in other miniatures games--even ones that don't allow premeasuring.

I even absentmindedly did it in my first game at a regional event and my opponent (who later went on to win the whole thing) patiently called me on it. I apologized profusely and we went on to have a great game and hung out a bit for the weekend.

So, please, if you see this happen, by all means correct them on it, but try to handle it with a little understanding. Don't call the TO over on the first offense, and try not to be a jerk about it.

But if you REALLY want the issue to go away, saying nothing, stewing on it, and trashing people on the internet isn't gonna make it happen.

You're right. We should really be blaming all his previous opponents for not correcting him

Is that really what you got out of my post? If so, I probably can't help you but I'll try.

It's absolutely the fault of the player for not playing within the rules, but we hardly have enough information to assume that he's cheating intentionally and insult him accordingly.

It's not your problem, and it's not our place to fix it now. If it wasn't addressed by any of his opponents or TOs, then they did him, themselves, and the whole community a disservice. Maybe 6+ pages of people saying things online that they would never have the courage to say to him in person could've been avoided if anyone bothered to address it at the time.

It's really disheartening because for as great as the X-wing community can be at events, online we're not the supportive, helpful, casual community we live to brag about. Just another wretched hive of knee-jerk reactionists and cowards.

But based on what I've read here, I know that I'd much rather play a tournament game against that guy who seemed to be ignorantly breaking the rules, than 90% of the posters on this thread.

There is an inherent responsibility of every player entering an event to know the rules, however. Honestly to not know or to "misinterpret" this rule is a player not living up to his responsibility as a player. Cheating or not is a seperate issue, but every player is expected to know the rules of the game. Ignorance of the rules is in and of itself a problem. Especially the basic rules.

There are any number of things in the rules that are clearly and unequivocally not legal that the rules do not expressly forbid. That simply is not how the rules for this game, or any game, works. It is impossible for a rule set to enumerate every possible thing that you can not do, as that is an infinitly long list.

The rules function in the sense that they tell you what to do, or overall what you are allowed to do. Not what you aren't allowed to do. That the rules occasionally make note of things you aren't allowed to do in no way changes that, as those instances are not going to function as an exhaustive list.

That certain posters are asserting the the rules must specifically forbid everything that they intend to not allow is absolutely asinine. The rules can not function under that criteria. This is gaming 101.

Wow, Lotta angry folks on this.

I've done and see people do similar things throughout my entire gaming life. Measuring two points that are not fixed is not the same as premeasuring. It is inherently still a guess, just perhaps a more accurate one.

Using your thumb and forefinger can be a bit shadier just because a player could have just measured it against the template and held the pose long enough to check the maneuver. But I've always just placed my finger on the board roughly where I think whatever length ends.

Now, I understand that this is specifically forbidden in the rules of X-wing; but that isn't the case in other miniatures games--even ones that don't allow premeasuring.

I even absentmindedly did it in my first game at a regional event and my opponent (who later went on to win the whole thing) patiently called me on it. I apologized profusely and we went on to have a great game and hung out a bit for the weekend.

So, please, if you see this happen, by all means correct them on it, but try to handle it with a little understanding. Don't call the TO over on the first offense, and try not to be a jerk about it.

But if you REALLY want the issue to go away, saying nothing, stewing on it, and trashing people on the internet isn't gonna make it happen.

You're right. We should really be blaming all his previous opponents for not correcting him

Is that really what you got out of my post? If so, I probably can't help you but I'll try.

It's absolutely the fault of the player for not playing within the rules, but we hardly have enough information to assume that he's cheating intentionally and insult him accordingly.

It's not your problem, and it's not our place to fix it now. If it wasn't addressed by any of his opponents or TOs, then they did him, themselves, and the whole community a disservice. Maybe 6+ pages of people saying things online that they would never have the courage to say to him in person could've been avoided if anyone bothered to address it at the time.

It's really disheartening because for as great as the X-wing community can be at events, online we're not the supportive, helpful, casual community we live to brag about. Just another wretched hive of knee-jerk reactionists and cowards.

But based on what I've read here, I know that I'd much rather play a tournament game against that guy who seemed to be ignorantly breaking the rules, than 90% of the posters on this thread.

The problem is that if there is a dispute about something, that there is a very good chance your opponent is going to be a "militant" casual and get angry. So instead of causing a scene we don't say anything in person, and when talking about it later you use it as an example without naming any names and someone involved finds it and takes great personal offense. They then wonder why you don't say anything at the time, as if an argument in person would magically be polite. XD

I've stopped shying away from speaking up. Certain players are just going to get angry over petty **** that is their own doing, and you might as well get them on tilt and take advantage of it. THEN you talk about it online.

URGH! unless a persons actually threatening physical harm they aren't a militant anything!

URGH! unless a persons actually threatening physical harm they aren't a militant anything!

Woah man that sounds pretty militant.

URGH! unless a persons actually threatening physical harm they aren't a militant anything!

Woah man that sounds pretty militant.

I'm pretty sure it's also racist.

The problem is that if there is a dispute about something, that there is a very good chance your opponent is going to be a "militant" casual and get angry. So instead of causing a scene we don't say anything in person, and when talking about it later you use it as an example without naming any names and someone involved finds it and takes great personal offense. They then wonder why you don't say anything at the time, as if an argument in person would magically be polite. XD

I've stopped shying away from speaking up. Certain players are just going to get angry over petty **** that is their own doing, and you might as well get them on tilt and take advantage of it. THEN you talk about it online.

A very good chance that they'll get upset? I'm sorry to hear that, it sounds like you play in a pretty toxic community. I've never seen that happen with X-wing. Usually if someone gets called on a rules issue, they say something like "oops, sorry, I didn't know you couldn't do that." The moment passes and the game goes on.

Still, I sympathize. I'm not a confrontational person and I will often pet things slide in the interest of expedience or just plain ambivalence about a rule. But I understand that if I choose not to say anything then, I also forfeit the right to whine about it after the fact.

I'm not sure I follow on the point about bringing it up later without naming names. That clearly isn't what's happening here. A video was posted showing it happen. Thats hardly anonymous. If you're referring to me taking personal offense, I assure you I'm not. I'm usually proud to be a part of this gaming community, but just occasionally embarrassed by it too.

The problem is that if there is a dispute about something, that there is a very good chance your opponent is going to be a "militant" casual and get angry.

" *suppressed smile* I'm sorry but you missed your opportunity."

Some people get angry but that's because they aren't flying casual.

Maybe you're not as good at suppressing that smirk as you think you are.

Hah, yes. Smirk is a better word.

The problem is that if there is a dispute about something, that there is a very good chance your opponent is going... get angry

You run into an ******* in the morning, then you ran into an *******.

You run into assholes all day, then YOU'RE the *******.

If all your disputes result in angry opponents, then maybe you need to look in the mirror for the cause...

while your opponent who has to remember FCS every shot can forget and you can use it to your advantage. And I have this WAAC mindset while also being polite in game.

Whats the consensus on just not removing the TL when a ship has FCS?

while your opponent who has to remember FCS every shot can forget and you can use it to your advantage. And I have this WAAC mindset while also being polite in game.

Whats the consensus on just not removing the TL when a ship has FCS?

Just say it out loud and make sure the other guy is cool with it. My local group does this and everyone is cool with it.

The problem is that if there is a dispute about something, that there is a very good chance your opponent is going... get angry

You run into an ******* in the morning, then you ran into an *******.

You run into assholes all day, then YOU'RE the *******.

If all your disputes result in angry opponents, then maybe you need to look in the mirror for the cause...

the 2nd clause is false

if you run into assholes all day, chances are you either work in an office building or live in a major city

or attend high school

or commute through a major highway...

Butterfingers must be popular in NYC.

A late response, but I have to pipe in that this was a guy that played an NYC guy rather than from NYC himself. As a group we don't tolerate that sort of bad sportsmanship.

Butterfingers must be popular in NYC.

FYI, the precision measure-er isn't from the NYC X-Wing group.

Butterfingers must be popular in NYC.

I just want to make it clear that there are no butterfingers in NYC. We have a great 'fly casual' community and never had problems with bad players.

This was a video taken at the NJ regionals and neither player was from our area.

The NYC commentators that produced the video actually cringe every time the premeasuring happens.