The discussion was kind of over anyway tbh. Using fingers to premeasure is cheating, 'nuff said.

Butterfingers must be popular in NYC.

Ok, I got 25 minutes through and can't watch another minute. When the guy is using his hand to gauge a Fat Han Boost action I just about want to vomit.

The guy with the dials was a mistake, probably just wanted to move the other guy before dealing with the clusterf*** he just walked into.

I feel like this is all kind of a distraction from the thread, but since I started it, I want to clarify. Sorry if it's a derailment or whatever, folks.

I think some of the lattitude in these sort of (minor? major?) rules violations comes from sheer exhaustion, too. Not just the deeply ingrained geeky recalcitrance to rock the boat and cause a scene, not just generally affable people wanting to be laid back, not just "fly casual" as an undercurrent in this hobby in particular...but...a combination of everything, in a way. A weird sort of patience grows over you like a callous, when you're tired enough, when you're deep enough into a tournament.

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

But...yeah. I think, if you're talking about tournament semifinals or whatever, pushing round 5, round 6, round 7 of a long day? People can sometimes just fall into a rhythm of "go to dials, move ships, roll dice, go to dials, move ships, roll dice," and you just want to keep playing, keep doing that, and not do anything to disrupt it. No calling a TO, no arguing with your opponent, you just want to shut up and play.

And I think -- as ugly and crummy as it is -- I think some folks know that. They know there's a reluctance to cause a scene, and they take advantage of that by pushing and pushing and pushing. "Push the Limit" isn't just an upgrade card.

If im not mistaken, the change to Boosting/Barrel rolling off the table was made to the FAQ and was in place prior to US Nationals. He was in the right taking back the barrel roll since it wouldn't have been considered a legal move.

"The FAQ will go into effect August 15th, 2015. The tournament rules will go into effect July 29th, 2015."

Where is this? I cant find it in the FAQ or the tournament rules that came out in July. I was under the impression the changes were immediate.

NVM, I found it. They should probably have important details like this in the actual FAQ rather than on the webpage. Thankfully this didnt impact anything I did at Nationals but I wouldnt be surprised if this guy was under the same impression I was.

We talked about whether or not the FAQ changed it, I explained the above (that it didn't), the guy at the next table chimed in and agreed with me, and it was all made very clear to him. There were no mistaken impressions. During the conversation opponent's arguments changed from "it was only off by like a millimeter, no big deal" to "you can't barrel roll off anyways" to "check the FAQ that just hit, you can't barrel roll off" to "fine, I'll put it back to where it was, no barrel roll" to "Whatever, fine, I'll do the barrel roll again" and, somehow, "There, it fits anyways!"

Thing is, re-create that move. Deployment: front of base even with front of deployment zone, every bit as far forward as you can legally deploy it. Turn one move: hard turn-1 to the right, then barrel roll right. There's no way it fits. It just doesn't. There's just no way a forward-facing YT-2400 does a hard one turn, then a barrel roll, in the same direction, and stays on the table.

This was the same guy who was trying to use Eaden Vrill's "When making a primary attack" ability with a Heavy Laser Cannon earlier in the tournament.

There's a reason I'm kicking myself for not calling a TO over, there's a reason I'm disappointed in myself for not speaking up and, instead, letting this guy keep playing in Nationals, there's a reason I'm frustrated about how I "didn't want to win that way" so I let him get away with it, and keep getting away with it.

Now, all that said, I brought it up not because of this guy, but because of myself. Because I let it go. I wanted to fly casual, I didn't want to interrupt the tournament, I wanted to sling dice and have a good time, I wanted to just keep going. I was tired so I figured he was tired and just making a mistake, so I let it slide. As it turns out, he'd been making those sort of "mistakes" all day, so instead it was a guy who was just pushing what he could get away with (and who had been since the first or second rounds of the tourney).

So my commentary in this thread is less about him, and more about me; how and why the other guy might let a cheater or a sloppy player get away with it.

My policy as of late in tournament games has been to not hesitate to call TO's over or bend to my opponent's will. You fire with a ship that has lower PS than your own Corran first on accident, haha nope it's not firing this turn. " *suppressed smile* I'm sorry but you missed your opportunity."

Some people get angry but that's because they aren't flying casual.

I'm the type of player that doesn't mind having a TO called over on me. If I'm doing something wrong I'd like to be corrected, if my dial falls between a 3 straight and 3 bank when it's clear that I intended 3 straight and my opponent wants to follow the rules for this situation I'm 100% okay with that. These are the rules of the game and it's inappropriate to get mad at another player for enforcing those rules. After that happened I was careful with that dial and when I got a chance I pried it apart and fixed the looseness.

My policy as of late in tournament games has been to not hesitate to call TO's over or bend to my opponent's will. You fire with a ship that has lower PS than your own Corran first on accident, haha nope it's not firing this turn. " *suppressed smile* I'm sorry but you missed your opportunity."

Some people get angry but that's because they aren't flying casual.

I'm the type of player that doesn't mind having a TO called over on me. If I'm doing something wrong I'd like to be corrected, if my dial falls between a 3 straight and 3 bank when it's clear that I intended 3 straight and my opponent wants to follow the rules for this situation I'm 100% okay with that. These are the rules of the game and it's inappropriate to get mad at another player for enforcing those rules. After that happened I was careful with that dial and when I got a chance I pried it apart and fixed the looseness.

Had a guy who Segnor'd his IG off the board because I blocked his Advanced Sensor Boost. It was the tiniest millimeter, but he removed the ship without any of the "You mind?" nonsense. Those are the true champs, if I have to be corny.

" *suppressed smile* I'm sorry but you missed your opportunity."

Some people get angry but that's because they aren't flying casual.

Maybe you're not as good at suppressing that smirk as you think you are.

Welcome to today's instalment of Wilfully Misunderstanding What Common English Words Mean Theatre.

So, that's a "No" then?

Congratulations on your rapier wit though

Yes, that one. "Must estimate in their head" means by eye. You can't put anything, not templates, range rulers, bits of wood or body parts on the table to measure arcs.

How does 'In your head' mean 'by eye'? To me, 'in their head' would mean with their eyes closed or their back to the table.

"Must estimate in their head" doesn't preclude any other form of estimation. Is there another rule that explicitly forbids any form of pre measuring?

That is exactly what that statement entails. How can you in anyway believe that a rule stating "Must estimate in thier head" means "May estimate however they want"?

This is astoundingly poor logic on your part.

If "must estimate in their head" means "may ONLY estimate in their head" then a law requiring drivers to wear a seatbelt must, by extension, require them to ONLY wear a seatbelt.

Do you drive naked (except for your seatbelt)?

Similarly, a rule stating that all sandwhiches must contain bread would, be extension, preclude the use of any butter or margarine or any kind of filling. Enjoy your bread sandwhiches, I guess.

Like a lot of stuff it becomes subjective as to "thinking with your hands" or pointing at the board as opposed to flat out measuring by placing a hand/finger down to see whether a maneuver will work or not.

This is why I'm being pedantic about this rule. When does pointing at the table or using hand gestures to help you visualise your move, when does that become pre-measuring?

I've always just placed my finger on the board roughly where I think whatever length ends.

Now, I understand that this is specifically forbidden in the rules of X-wing

It's not.

I can see how people think that's what the rule is aiming at, but I don't think the intent of the rule is to preclude any any all forms of visualisation. And the wording of the rules certainly doesn't preclude it.

The rule states you must estimate in your head. Having done that, then by the rules you are then free to do any form of premeasuring you wish so long as you DON'T use a movement template.

More astoundingly poor logic but I'll humor you again.

If you are pre-measuring on the table, then you can not be estimating within your head. They are mutually exclusive concepts.

If there were a rule stating that sandwiches must have bread, that would not preclude other items, so long as you also had bread. That is assuming that the other items wouldn't prevent you from including bread. If any such item did that then it wouldn't be allowed in a sandwich as it and bread would be mutually exclusive.

Now, if you are driving along (naked apparently) and are within a lane that states you must make a right turn at an upcoming intersection while occupying that lane, would you be able (legally speaking) to make a left? No of course you couldn't because if you make that left you aren't making a right. You can not do both at that intersection.

Just like you can not both only estimate within your head, while also measuring what you are meant to be estimating on the table.

How that required designer clarification is just sad, but you also have that designer clarification on the subject as well. There are no grounds to assert that a player is able to use thier fingers to attempt to skirt around estimating in thier own heads as the rules mandate.

More astoundingly poor logic but I'll humor you again.

If you are pre-measuring on the table, then you can not be estimating within your head. They are mutually exclusive concepts.

Absolute piffle.

I can estimate in my head. And once that estimate is complete, I can measure with my fingers. Or vice versa. If by precedent we are allowing the use of our eyes to assist our mental estimation, then I can also place my fingers on the board to assist that estimation. But I don't have to, because I can make mental estimate and a physical one completely independent of each other.

Really, what I'm getting at with all this nitpicking is when does pointing and gesturing at the table (to assist with estimation) become pre-measuring. Must we start insisting all our opponents set their dials with their backs to the table? Keep their hands in their pockets with the express exemption of setting their dials?

The rules don't tell us we can't pre measure. They tell us what we must do (estimate in our heads) but do not tell us what we can't do. Except use the maneuver templates to pre-measure. And even that is awfully vague. Can I look at the template, then look at the table to assist my estimation? How close can I hold the template to the table? Two inches? Ten? Fifty?

If, when I am making this mental estimate, some of the maneuver templates are laying on the table, am I even allowed to look at them? Does glancing at them make me a cheater, to be ejected from the event with prejudice?

Now lets be clear, we are already allowed to assist our mental estimation. The only way one could truly make a purely mental estimation is if one were totally blind and had never held, or had described to them, any of the maneuver templates and had no idea what the board looked like. We are already allowed to know certain things to better help us decide which maneuvers to make, like where the obstacles and enemy ships are, which ships are stressed, and what the different maneuver templates look like.

So long as we A) estimate in our heads and B) do not use the maneuver template to pre-measure, then literally anything else is fair game, as the rules are written.

You don't want to argue about the letter of the rules because it doesn't say what you want it to say. You're not going to win that one.

What you want to argue about is the intent of the rules and what I want to argue about is the extent to which that intent should be applied.

So tell me, in your opinion, when does point and gesturing become pre-measuring? What, exactly, is allowed and what isn't?

The rules don't tell us we can't pre measure. They tell us what we must do (estimate in our heads) but do not tell us what we can't do. Except use the maneuver templates to pre-measure.

They also don't tell us that we can't take a hammer, smash all your opponent's ships and declare a win. By your twisted logic that would be legal.

Stay at home, play at home... but no some people just have to go out there among... them.

The rules don't tell us we can't pre measure. They tell us what we must do (estimate in our heads) but do not tell us what we can't do. Except use the maneuver templates to pre-measure.

They also don't tell us that we can't take a hammer, smash all your opponent's ships and declare a win. By your twisted logic that would be legal.

I mean it is a deathmatch, first to blow up their opponents ships hull, by reducing it to 0. I'll accept this logic if we are using his logic. Sounds 100% legit to me. Oh and if he doesn't like that, how about after we DO blow up the ship in game, then we take a hammer to the model. That seems to follow a bit better.

The rules don't tell us we can't pre measure. They tell us what we must do (estimate in our heads) but do not tell us what we can't do. Except use the maneuver templates to pre-measure.

They also don't tell us that we can't take a hammer, smash all your opponent's ships and declare a win. By your twisted logic that would be legal.

Well, I don't know the rules 100%, there's probably a clause in there somewhere that stipulates not moving someone else's ships, which would prevent you smashing them with a hammer.

And quite apart from that, damaging someone else's property is illegal. So there's that.

But let's leave that aside for a moment, and talk about something actually interesting:

when does pointing and gesturing become pre-measuring? What, exactly, is allowed and what isn't?

Pointing and gesturing become pre-measuring when you use pointing and gesturing to pre-measure. You're not allowed to pre-measure so this would not be allowed.

This is simpler than you want it to be.

There is no rule about moving your opponents ships, which brings a new idea, we can push others ships off the board! Easy win!

It's simple man, woman, it, blob, etc, keep your hands off and away from the table unless you are moving something or measuring range. It's that simple. No visual aid outside your own spatial reasoning.

Solving a maths problem "in your head" doesn't mean you're not looking at the problem you're solving, it means you're not using a physical aid to help you. So you're not using a calculator or an abacus or writing down your working or, I don't know, counting on your fingers.

So yeah, the rules as written DO say what basically everyone is claiming, unless you're wilfully insisting on using a definition of "in your head" that's different to what that phrase is used to mean.

Now, the fuzzy line where something stops being "in your head" and starts being "with physical aid" is a more interesting conversation, but it's pretty clear that using your fingers to judge movement is on the wrong side of it. Personally, I'd say that the moment you move your hands over the board you've crossed the line, and I'd give a bit of side-eye to someone physically picking up their template. But I can see an individual TO giving a bit of leeway one way or the other.

I don't understand, its really simple. You cannot pre-measure during the planning phase.The rule book states "...they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships' movement in their heads.".

In contrast in the combat phase, when declaring a target the rule book states "A player may measure to verify that these conditions are met before declaring a target."

There is nothing to argue. What happened in that video is cheating. Cheating is not flying casual.

Wow, Lotta angry folks on this.

I've done and see people do similar things throughout my entire gaming life. Measuring two points that are not fixed is not the same as premeasuring. It is inherently still a guess, just perhaps a more accurate one.

Using your thumb and forefinger can be a bit shadier just because a player could have just measured it against the template and held the pose long enough to check the maneuver. But I've always just placed my finger on the board roughly where I think whatever length ends.

Now, I understand that this is specifically forbidden in the rules of X-wing; but that isn't the case in other miniatures games--even ones that don't allow premeasuring.

I even absentmindedly did it in my first game at a regional event and my opponent (who later went on to win the whole thing) patiently called me on it. I apologized profusely and we went on to have a great game and hung out a bit for the weekend.

So, please, if you see this happen, by all means correct them on it, but try to handle it with a little understanding. Don't call the TO over on the first offense, and try not to be a jerk about it.

But if you REALLY want the issue to go away, saying nothing, stewing on it, and trashing people on the internet isn't gonna make it happen.

You're right. We should really be blaming all his previous opponents for not correcting him

I really don't get it it's so clearly cheating there's no argument against it.

Physically putting your fingers on the board next to your ship to gain info is not allowed.

Yay X-Wing forum!

Start a thread with a basic PSA that helps clarify that you may not use your hands or fingers to check distances (aka measure) before setting dials and then this happens.

I'm surprised that so many people did this and were unaware of the rule. That alone means this thread served a legitimate purpose.

Why we end up with pages and pages of arguments over the topic is anyone's guess. Wait, no it's not a guess...it's another day on the X-Wing forum.

I have only used my fingers to pre-measure a move once and only once.

I was playing against a dual IG list and my opponent had been using his fingers to pre-measure some moves. Not all the time mind you but often enough for me to notice. I figured he was a new player, not confident in his moves or just someone that didn't have the time to play often enough to do without it, so I let it slide much to the dismay of the table next to us.

So a few turns later I placed all my dials, WAY before my opponent did. Whilst he was deciding on where his last remaining ship should go, I was very clearly leaning over the table, drawing lines from my StarViper to where I thought a two turn right would go. I was mumbling to myself, thinking through if the turn would clear the rock and get me into flanking position of the enemy IG.

My opponent picked up his dial and changed his manoeuvre, I can only assume due to this new information. . .

When it came to moving, his IG88B adv. sensors to focus and then S-Loops, right into firing arc of where I was drawing my fingers. *gasp!* He had me!!

I revealed the Viper dial. . . and S-Looped to his flank, out of his firing arc, at range 1, with a focus and target lock. (go GURI !)

Like the Diamond Cutter, he never saw it coming. .

I have only used my fingers to pre-measure a move once and only once.

I was playing against a dual IG list and my opponent had been using his fingers to pre-measure some moves. Not all the time mind you but often enough for me to notice. I figured he was a new player, not confident in his moves or just someone that didn't have the time to play often enough to do without it, so I let it slide much to the dismay of the table next to us.

So a few turns later I placed all my dials, WAY before my opponent did. Whilst he was deciding on where his last remaining ship should go, I was very clearly leaning over the table, drawing lines from my StarViper to where I thought a two turn right would go. I was mumbling to myself, thinking through if the turn would clear the rock and get me into flanking position of the enemy IG.

My opponent picked up his dial and changed his manoeuvre, I can only assume due to this new information. . .

When it came to moving, his IG88B adv. sensors to focus and then S-Loops, right into firing arc of where I was drawing my fingers. *gasp!* He had me!!

I revealed the Viper dial. . . and S-Looped to his flank, out of his firing arc, at range 1, with a focus and target lock. (go GURI !)

Like the Diamond Cutter, he never saw it coming. .

Them mind games.

I recently played an opponent who was extremely easy to read. After I would move my Academies, I would watch his reaction to know if I should barrel roll to block his high pilot skill ships or not. I got several good blocks in that game resulting in a win lol

I have only used my fingers to pre-measure a move once and only once.

I was playing against a dual IG list and my opponent had been using his fingers to pre-measure some moves. Not all the time mind you but often enough for me to notice. I figured he was a new player, not confident in his moves or just someone that didn't have the time to play often enough to do without it, so I let it slide much to the dismay of the table next to us.

So a few turns later I placed all my dials, WAY before my opponent did. Whilst he was deciding on where his last remaining ship should go, I was very clearly leaning over the table, drawing lines from my StarViper to where I thought a two turn right would go. I was mumbling to myself, thinking through if the turn would clear the rock and get me into flanking position of the enemy IG.

My opponent picked up his dial and changed his manoeuvre, I can only assume due to this new information. . .

When it came to moving, his IG88B adv. sensors to focus and then S-Loops, right into firing arc of where I was drawing my fingers. *gasp!* He had me!!

I revealed the Viper dial. . . and S-Looped to his flank, out of his firing arc, at range 1, with a focus and target lock. (go GURI !)

Like the Diamond Cutter, he never saw it coming. .

Them mind games.

I recently played an opponent who was extremely easy to read. After I would move my Academies, I would watch his reaction to know if I should barrel roll to block his high pilot skill ships or not. I got several good blocks in that game resulting in a win lol

Stop premeasuring your opponent! Not flying casual!

/sarcasm