I had a game yesterday where I had a ship facing the board edge. My options were a 3 or 4 K-turn (I could have hard turned, but I needed the ship to fire that turn). I knew a 4K would take me off, but I wasn't sure if a 3K would. So I looked and pondered and went back and forth. Which, frankly, was a lot more fun and challenging than just being able to put down the 3 template and check. It ended up being moot because I forgot he had a stress token and so I had to turn anyway, but it's those uncertainties that give the game its flavor. If you're able to know exactly how every maneuver is going to turn out, you might as well program everything into a computer and run a simulation.

I did not click on this topic originally because I thought it meant using your fingers instead of a range ruler to say "Eh, that looks like range 2." It never occurred to me that players would be putting their fingers on the playmat to pre-measure maneuvers. IMHO, It so obviously violates the spirit of the game that I couldn't imagine there being disagreement over the topic. Then I remembered the internet exists...

My only thought could be that anyone arguing for premeasuring being okay doesn't enjoy the competitive side of this game and just likes the casual side. That's fine, but otherwise I don't understand how taking any ability to make mistakes out of a game is more fun or better. The tension of 'will this 4k put me off the board?' is the fun of the game, and if everyone could just measure where they were going to go it becomes basically just a ps bid and dice off.

Ok guys, I'm gonna need those of you who are against using your hands to watch some of the world's 2013 and 2014 coverage

Ok guys, I'm gonna need those of you who are against using your hands to watch some of the world's 2013 and 2014 coverage

Just because they did it doesn't mean it's right. Saying 'hey I saw a guy steal a bwing blister, so it must be okay for me to do so as well' makes about as much sense.

Ok guys, I'm gonna need those of you who are against using your hands to watch some of the world's 2013 and 2014 coverage

I'll go with the standard "Pics or it didn't happen" internet response.

Like a lot of stuff it becomes subjective as to "thinking with your hands" or pointing at the board as opposed to flat out measuring by placing a hand/finger down to see whether a maneuver will work or not.

I think some of the lattitude in these sort of (minor? major?) rules violations comes from sheer exhaustion, too. Not just the deeply ingrained geeky recalcitrance to rock the boat and cause a scene, not just generally affable people wanting to be laid back, not just "fly casual" as an undercurrent in this hobby in particular...but...a combination of everything, in a way. A weird sort of patience grows over you like a callous, when you're tired enough, when you're deep enough into a tournament.

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

But...yeah. I think, if you're talking about tournament semifinals or whatever, pushing round 5, round 6, round 7 of a long day? People can sometimes just fall into a rhythm of "go to dials, move ships, roll dice, go to dials, move ships, roll dice," and you just want to keep playing, keep doing that, and not do anything to disrupt it. No calling a TO, no arguing with your opponent, you just want to shut up and play.

And I think -- as ugly and crummy as it is -- I think some folks know that. They know there's a reluctance to cause a scene, and they take advantage of that by pushing and pushing and pushing. "Push the Limit" isn't just an upgrade card.

If im not mistaken, the change to Boosting/Barrel rolling off the table was made to the FAQ and was in place prior to US Nationals. He was in the right taking back the barrel roll since it wouldn't have been considered a legal move.

I think some of the lattitude in these sort of (minor? major?) rules violations comes from sheer exhaustion, too. Not just the deeply ingrained geeky recalcitrance to rock the boat and cause a scene, not just generally affable people wanting to be laid back, not just "fly casual" as an undercurrent in this hobby in particular...but...a combination of everything, in a way. A weird sort of patience grows over you like a callous, when you're tired enough, when you're deep enough into a tournament.

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

But...yeah. I think, if you're talking about tournament semifinals or whatever, pushing round 5, round 6, round 7 of a long day? People can sometimes just fall into a rhythm of "go to dials, move ships, roll dice, go to dials, move ships, roll dice," and you just want to keep playing, keep doing that, and not do anything to disrupt it. No calling a TO, no arguing with your opponent, you just want to shut up and play.

And I think -- as ugly and crummy as it is -- I think some folks know that. They know there's a reluctance to cause a scene, and they take advantage of that by pushing and pushing and pushing. "Push the Limit" isn't just an upgrade card.

If im not mistaken, the change to Boosting/Barrel rolling off the table was made to the FAQ and was in place prior to US Nationals. He was in the right taking back the barrel roll since it wouldn't have been considered a legal move.

"The FAQ will go into effect August 15th, 2015. The tournament rules will go into effect July 29th, 2015."

Ok, if there is no measuring except when explicitly stated I hope all of you play with blindfolds on. You can see the board when you set up and I guess you'll need to take them off to maneuver but if everything is supposed to be "done in your head" then you shouldn't be able to look at the board either.

Why is the stupid 'no-measuring' rule in the game anyway? I believe it is there to avoid people wasting excessive time plotting each and every thing they do. I can support that reasoning but if you can look at the board for however long to visually measure a move to determine if it will go you quickly get to a point where some form of measurement is perfectly reasonable.

I really hope that you're trolling us, otherwise your argument is just completely lacking on any intelligent reasoning

I think some of the lattitude in these sort of (minor? major?) rules violations comes from sheer exhaustion, too. Not just the deeply ingrained geeky recalcitrance to rock the boat and cause a scene, not just generally affable people wanting to be laid back, not just "fly casual" as an undercurrent in this hobby in particular...but...a combination of everything, in a way. A weird sort of patience grows over you like a callous, when you're tired enough, when you're deep enough into a tournament.

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

But...yeah. I think, if you're talking about tournament semifinals or whatever, pushing round 5, round 6, round 7 of a long day? People can sometimes just fall into a rhythm of "go to dials, move ships, roll dice, go to dials, move ships, roll dice," and you just want to keep playing, keep doing that, and not do anything to disrupt it. No calling a TO, no arguing with your opponent, you just want to shut up and play.

And I think -- as ugly and crummy as it is -- I think some folks know that. They know there's a reluctance to cause a scene, and they take advantage of that by pushing and pushing and pushing. "Push the Limit" isn't just an upgrade card.

If im not mistaken, the change to Boosting/Barrel rolling off the table was made to the FAQ and was in place prior to US Nationals. He was in the right taking back the barrel roll since it wouldn't have been considered a legal move.

"The FAQ will go into effect August 15th, 2015. The tournament rules will go into effect July 29th, 2015."

NVM, I found it. They should probably have important details like this in the actual FAQ rather than on the webpage. Thankfully this didnt impact anything I did at Nationals but I wouldnt be surprised if this guy was under the same impression I was.

I think some of the lattitude in these sort of (minor? major?) rules violations comes from sheer exhaustion, too. Not just the deeply ingrained geeky recalcitrance to rock the boat and cause a scene, not just generally affable people wanting to be laid back, not just "fly casual" as an undercurrent in this hobby in particular...but...a combination of everything, in a way. A weird sort of patience grows over you like a callous, when you're tired enough, when you're deep enough into a tournament.

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

But...yeah. I think, if you're talking about tournament semifinals or whatever, pushing round 5, round 6, round 7 of a long day? People can sometimes just fall into a rhythm of "go to dials, move ships, roll dice, go to dials, move ships, roll dice," and you just want to keep playing, keep doing that, and not do anything to disrupt it. No calling a TO, no arguing with your opponent, you just want to shut up and play.

And I think -- as ugly and crummy as it is -- I think some folks know that. They know there's a reluctance to cause a scene, and they take advantage of that by pushing and pushing and pushing. "Push the Limit" isn't just an upgrade card.

If im not mistaken, the change to Boosting/Barrel rolling off the table was made to the FAQ and was in place prior to US Nationals. He was in the right taking back the barrel roll since it wouldn't have been considered a legal move.

"The FAQ will go into effect August 15th, 2015. The tournament rules will go into effect July 29th, 2015."

Where is this? I cant find it in the FAQ or the tournament rules that came out in July. I was under the impression the changes were immediate.

It was in the announcement for the release of the updated rules and faq.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/7/24/becoming-an-ace/

Below the picture of the FAQ sheet, above A Word from the Developer

This is a final at a premier event. Where the hell is the TO? Is he not watching the game? If he is, he has an obligation to warn both players of rules violations.

I blame the TO as much as these players. Breaking the rules doesnot constitute FlyCasual; I don't allow thay BS is casual games any more than I do premier tournaments.

That was not the finals.

Better idea. Maybe FFG should just loosen the rules on 'pre-measuring'.

It's times like this that I wish this forum had a "Dislike" button.

Man that was just bad. Especially when he premeasured to see if he would hit his own Z-95. HE DIDNT EVEN KNOW THE RULE FOR BUMPING WITH BOOST. Just so bad.

Also, when Han was shot at in the corner, I don't think that shot from the B-Wing was obstructed. He didn't measure from closest point to closest point. Correct me if I'm wrong, though

Wow, Lotta angry folks on this.

I've done and see people do similar things throughout my entire gaming life. Measuring two points that are not fixed is not the same as premeasuring. It is inherently still a guess, just perhaps a more accurate one.

Using your thumb and forefinger can be a bit shadier just because a player could have just measured it against the template and held the pose long enough to check the maneuver. But I've always just placed my finger on the board roughly where I think whatever length ends.

Now, I understand that this is specifically forbidden in the rules of X-wing; but that isn't the case in other miniatures games--even ones that don't allow premeasuring.

I even absentmindedly did it in my first game at a regional event and my opponent (who later went on to win the whole thing) patiently called me on it. I apologized profusely and we went on to have a great game and hung out a bit for the weekend.

So, please, if you see this happen, by all means correct them on it, but try to handle it with a little understanding. Don't call the TO over on the first offense, and try not to be a jerk about it.

But if you REALLY want the issue to go away, saying nothing, stewing on it, and trashing people on the internet isn't gonna make it happen.

That's why ball peen hammers were invented.

Turns out they also don't like it when you measure with other bodyparts...

Pfft, it's not like being able to drop down an exact 3 straight is going to... I mean range 3 ruler!!!

#pancakepushing

I was one of the people helping run this event. Had I seen or been told of this behavior I would have spoken to the player immediately and made an announcement to the event. Had anyone done it again past that point I would have given them a game loss.

It is frustrating as a TO the number of things that find there way into your pre-event instructions. That I have to remind players to check thier damage decks, leave dice on the table after rolling, roll away from the ship's on the table, confirm all measurements with thier opponent, confirm all damage with thier opponent, announce all actions and abilities, play at a reasonable pace, and don't pre-measure with your fingers; is a bit disheartening. Hell I probably am forgetting a few things.

Honestly, isn't this just an amalgamation of a crowd of knowledge for the most part? As in, most everyone knows 99% of the rules, but they all forget different rules, and hence you have to notify on a large number of things?

So, is pointing at a spot where you think it is going to end up "Premeasuring"? As in, not using your fingers as a yard stick, but just saying "This corner of the ship will be here" and point. The "measurement" was done in the head. I can't say I'd call somebody on it, but I don't like it, and I don't like the vagueness of the rules in this regard.

And while it totally disagree that this conclusion is within the spirit of the rules, the poster who said "must measure in their head" doesn't preclude measuring in other ways could be technically correct from a language standpoint. (looking only at that statement in a vacuum). If I must measure my height with a ruler, that doesn't preclude me from using a measuring tape as well. I just have to make sure I use the ruler too. This language needs cleared up with an "only your head". EDIT: Actually, nope, they are wrong. The rules say you can't measure, but only ESTIMATE in your head. Other forms of measure are measuring (however inaccurate), not estimating.

So, is pointing at a spot where you think it is going to end up "Premeasuring"? As in, not using your fingers as a yard stick, but just saying "This corner of the ship will be here" and point. The "measurement" was done in the head. I can't say I'd call somebody on it, but I don't like it, and I don't like the vagueness of the rules in this regard.

And while it totally disagree that this conclusion is within the spirit of the rules, the poster who said "must measure in their head" doesn't preclude measuring in other ways could be technically correct from a language standpoint. (looking only at that statement in a vacuum). If I must measure my height with a ruler, that doesn't preclude me from using a measuring tape as well. I just have to make sure I use the ruler too. This language needs cleared up with an "only your head". EDIT: Actually, nope, they are wrong. The rules say you can't measure, but only ESTIMATE in your head. Other forms of measure are measuring (however inaccurate), not estimating.

Pointing at the board and guessing where the ship will end is still premeasuring with your finger as to where the ship will end up.

Surely you can understand that must, especially in used in the context of every game FFG makes, (they like to use the same words for defining their games) is a mandatory, non-optional requirement.

The thing about game rules is that they are never looked at in a vacuum, otherwise that is how you consistently fail to understand the rules of the game. Since the inception of X-Wing, before there was a FAQ, players had to interpret how new cards worked based upon the existing rules as a whole. The majority of these decisions the community made matched the way FFG intended them to work, as they later saw in the FAQ. In the rare cases that some rules worked differently, it was because the rule could have been interpreted either way and FFG intended them to be one way that the community did not expect.

The language is fine how it is. Don't defend cheating.

So, is pointing at a spot where you think it is going to end up "Premeasuring"? As in, not using your fingers as a yard stick, but just saying "This corner of the ship will be here" and point. The "measurement" was done in the head. I can't say I'd call somebody on it, but I don't like it, and I don't like the vagueness of the rules in this regard.

And while it totally disagree that this conclusion is within the spirit of the rules, the poster who said "must measure in their head" doesn't preclude measuring in other ways could be technically correct from a language standpoint. (looking only at that statement in a vacuum). If I must measure my height with a ruler, that doesn't preclude me from using a measuring tape as well. I just have to make sure I use the ruler too. This language needs cleared up with an "only your head". EDIT: Actually, nope, they are wrong. The rules say you can't measure, but only ESTIMATE in your head. Other forms of measure are measuring (however inaccurate), not estimating.

Pointing at the board and guessing where the ship will end is still premeasuring with your finger as to where the ship will end up.

must¹

məst/

verb

• 1.

  be obliged to; should (expressing necessity).

  "you must show your ID card"

Surely you can understand that must, especially in used in the context of every game FFG makes, (they like to use the same words for defining their games) is a mandatory, non-optional requirement.

The thing about game rules is that they are never looked at in a vacuum, otherwise that is how you consistently fail to understand the rules of the game. Since the inception of X-Wing, before there was a FAQ, players had to interpret how new cards worked based upon the existing rules as a whole. The majority of these decisions the community made matched the way FFG intended them to work, as they later saw in the FAQ. In the rare cases that some rules worked differently, it was because the rule could have been interpreted either way and FFG intended them to be one way that the community did not expect.

The language is fine how it is. Don't defend cheating.

Your definition illustrates that "must" only makes one particular thing required. It does not preclude others.

If I must wear a tie to work, then I must wear a tie. But I can also wear a shirt, pants, etc.

If I must fill out a form in duplicate, I can also fill it out in triplicate. I have done what I am obliged to, and more.

If I must show ID, I can also show my Costco card, so long as I show my ID.

"Must" sets a minimum requirement only. "Must only" also sets a limit - I can do no more.

This is exactly the point I was making at the time - that the rules should be clarified with an "only" (I later rescinded even this due to the wording). I have no flippiing clue how you arrived at a defense of cheating out of that, especially given the fact that I openly stated that I disagreed with the conclusion. Double down on your lack of comprehension, where in the very post you quoted, I later stated I determined the posters conclusion was in fact just wrong because the rules say "estimate" in lieu of "measure". Yet somehow, some way, you got an endorsement of cheating out of me saying I disagreed and that he was wrong.

I can put up with a lot of pedantic BS, but I sure as heck won't put up with being basically called an associate to cheating, especially when I've stated almost the exact opposite of what you imply and you have just failed to successfully read it.

I guess FFG just needs to rewrite every FAQ for all of their games then because "must" is mandatory in all cases.

Take, for instance, the Imperial Assault Rules Reference Guide.

Some abilities have costs which must be paid in order to resolve the ability. Here is a list of the different types of ability costs:

(surge symbol): A surge (surge symbol) result must be spent during an attack to use this ability

• Each action must be resolved completely before the figure performs its next action.

Here, taken from the X-Wing FAQ

When a ship decloaks, it must choose one of the following effects: • Perform a barrel roll using the [ 2] maneuver template. • Perform a boost using the [ 2] maneuver template

Sounds like must is pretty definite to me. I must do one of two things.

Here's one on the Planning phase from the Core Rules. Bold was used in the rule book.

Players must assign a dial to each ship.

There's no real wiggle room in the term "must" as defined by FFG.

While your comments on whether you agree or not on decisions made I definitely was confused by, your own pedantry about the word "must" is just wrong. It is clearly defined as a definite with no optional choices. If it were to give you optional choices, they would have used the word "may", as that is the word they have defined as a choice (usually to go through with an effect or to choose not to).

On the differences between "may" and "must", see the many discussions on these forums about Rebel Captive.

I don't know how to explain this any other way. I have not said that "must" does not equate to a mandatory requirement. I am trying to say that must sets a minimum requirement, not a maximum. You can always do more than you "must".

I think my example told it pretty well. If I must show my ID, that is the minimum. I can show as many things as I like, but the one thing I must show is my ID.

If the rules said "You must measure in your head" (They don't as I noted). Then I would have to do at least that. But I may do more, so long as I also did what I must.

If the rules said "You must ONLY measure in your head", then I would have to do that, and I can ONLY do that.

But, the "must" thing is just a pointless side argument that I can drop. I was mostly irked by being viewed as some sort of cheating accomplice that got me started, and we are at least clear there.

If the rules said "You must measure in your head" (They don't as I noted). Then I would have to do at least that. But I may do more.

Enhance!

Enhance!