I wonder if the guy on the right decided that since his opponent keeps pre-measuring, that he might as well do it too. Both are obviously illegal, but at least when the B-wing player checks with his template, he's holding it 4-5 inches above the board, and he's already locked into the move and doesn't have Advanced Sensors. The guy on the right is checking where a boost will put him and he's right on the board when he does it, I think this is far worse.

I think some of the lattitude in these sort of (minor? major?) rules violations comes from sheer exhaustion, too. Not just the deeply ingrained geeky recalcitrance to rock the boat and cause a scene, not just generally affable people wanting to be laid back, not just "fly casual" as an undercurrent in this hobby in particular...but...a combination of everything, in a way. A weird sort of patience grows over you like a callous, when you're tired enough, when you're deep enough into a tournament.

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

But...yeah. I think, if you're talking about tournament semifinals or whatever, pushing round 5, round 6, round 7 of a long day? People can sometimes just fall into a rhythm of "go to dials, move ships, roll dice, go to dials, move ships, roll dice," and you just want to keep playing, keep doing that, and not do anything to disrupt it. No calling a TO, no arguing with your opponent, you just want to shut up and play.

And I think -- as ugly and crummy as it is -- I think some folks know that. They know there's a reluctance to cause a scene, and they take advantage of that by pushing and pushing and pushing. "Push the Limit" isn't just an upgrade card.

Better idea. Maybe FFG should just loosen the rules on 'pre-measuring'.

I'm all for flying casual, but I hate people who measure with their fingers in this game. It happens a lot. I don't understand why no one stops it. I pointed it out at two regionals and both players seemed upset. One even said, it's a habit what happened to fly casual?

FFG should put a stop to it. If you do it and are caught you should be removed from the tourney.

Because people that, "Fly Casual" are more often than not the types of players that are the least laid back about the game. They'll get angry and try to shame players into succumbing to their sloppy play, and the people trying to enforce the rules might be doormats/actually flying casual and might just succumb to the will of their opponent.

I don't hesitate to call TO's over and I don't hesitate to deny my opponents forgotten triggers. I've been able to deny my opponents some Talonbane or Super Corran shots after adopting this mindset. It's nice to fly low PS generics with not a lot of abilities, means you're less susceptible to forgetting things while your opponent who has to remember FCS every shot can forget and you can use it to your advantage. And I have this WAAC mindset while also being polite in game.

The most pleasant tournament games I've had were those where my opponent and I generally gave each other the benefit of the doubt about small things like borderline arcs (e.g. based on how that ship has moved this entire game that other ship should be in arc but as it was accidentally just bumped, it doesnt look like it) but not things like missed opportunities. I don't think flying casual means letting your opponent break the rules or take missed opportunity, it just means being polite. You can politely deny the opponent's request and he can politely accept this or call an impartial adjuticator. Likewise, with opportunities like decloak, I find it best for myself to ask my opponent if he wants to decloak before I move my PS 1 ships.

If someone gets angry that you're not flying casual because you don't want to let him premeasure, he may be missing the point.

I think some of the lattitude in these sort of (minor? major?) rules violations comes from sheer exhaustion, too. Not just the deeply ingrained geeky recalcitrance to rock the boat and cause a scene, not just generally affable people wanting to be laid back, not just "fly casual" as an undercurrent in this hobby in particular...but...a combination of everything, in a way. A weird sort of patience grows over you like a callous, when you're tired enough, when you're deep enough into a tournament.

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

But...yeah. I think, if you're talking about tournament semifinals or whatever, pushing round 5, round 6, round 7 of a long day? People can sometimes just fall into a rhythm of "go to dials, move ships, roll dice, go to dials, move ships, roll dice," and you just want to keep playing, keep doing that, and not do anything to disrupt it. No calling a TO, no arguing with your opponent, you just want to shut up and play.

And I think -- as ugly and crummy as it is -- I think some folks know that. They know there's a reluctance to cause a scene, and they take advantage of that by pushing and pushing and pushing. "Push the Limit" isn't just an upgrade card.

I've made the mistake of not calling over a TO solely because I wanted to keep the game going. It was a mistake but one that didn't cost me the game, just likely a ship or two. Won't happen again. When in doubt, call it out.

Better idea. Maybe FFG should just loosen the rules on 'pre-measuring'.

Goodness no, I don't think that's a good idea at all.

never seen it done, and I'd call the person on it if they did it.. this is why we have templates.. I thought I saw the guy on the right do it for the first move with the B wings.. right at the start there..

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

I thought you can't barrel roll or boost off the table, that you can only move off the table.

I believe if it is a casual game...then fly casual...I don't mind helping out my opponent once in awhile...but if I help to much they will never learn to remember...missed opportunities become a bad habit for them. If you're in a tournament..different story...once maybe, after that it's time to call the opponent out on the rule of missed opportunity.

I had a guy pull some shenanigans at Nationals, in Indy. There was some barrel rolling, some taking back a barrel roll when it moved his dude off the table, some disagreement about whether it could be taken back, then some re-barrel rolling (but fitting the second time)...and at the time -- though calling him on it would have surely won me the game, since it was like 2/3 his army flying off the board on turn one! -- I just rolled my eyes and wanted to keep playing, so I let it slide. I was tired, I knew he was tired, I just wanted to roll dice and have fun and keep the tournament going. I didn't want to be "that guy" so I let it slide. Now, as it turns out, he'd been pulling some similar garbage all day, and as a result I felt really bad for NOT calling him on it (and after the match I let the TO's know, just so they could keep an eye on the guy).

I thought you can't barrel roll or boost off the table, that you can only move off the table.

That was one of the more recent changes to the FAQ, if memory serves. Previously you could.

Yeah. How much can you change how much you're barrel rolling by? =/

I've done that a few times. Declared a roll, halfway put down the 1 to begin, only to notice its a bad idea. Thankfully my opponents have been pretty lenient on it.

Yeah, I agree with the general consensus of this thread. "Fly casual" does NOT mean 'fly sloppy' or 'ignore the rules,' it means 'don't be a jerk.'

Expecting your opponent to follow the rules is not being a jerk.

Calling a TO over is not being a jerk.

Throwing a fit because your opponent calls you out for sloppy/illegal play IS being a jerk.

Better idea. Maybe FFG should just loosen the rules on 'pre-measuring'.

No, if you need to cheat, get out. Enough said. This is a game about spatial reasoning. If you can use fingers let me go and make some legos templates, cause hey hat isn't the manuever template either right?

Judging moves by eye is a big part of the skill that separates good players from bad, people using their fingers are cheating plain and simple.

You see someone doing it once tell the nicely that's against the rules, they do it again you call the TO.

Yeah. How much can you change how much you're barrel rolling by? =/

I've done that a few times. Declared a roll, halfway put down the 1 to begin, only to notice its a bad idea. Thankfully my opponents have been pretty lenient on it.

To me this is fine and in the fly casual attitude, I'm fine with that.

But getting your hands over the board, nope.

Ok, if there is no measuring except when explicitly stated I hope all of you play with blindfolds on. You can see the board when you set up and I guess you'll need to take them off to maneuver but if everything is supposed to be "done in your head" then you shouldn't be able to look at the board either.

Why is the stupid 'no-measuring' rule in the game anyway? I believe it is there to avoid people wasting excessive time plotting each and every thing they do. I can support that reasoning but if you can look at the board for however long to visually measure a move to determine if it will go you quickly get to a point where some form of measurement is perfectly reasonable.

"Must estimate in their head" doesn't preclude any other form of estimation. Is there another rule that explicitly forbids any form of pre measuring?

Ok, if there is no measuring except when explicitly stated I hope all of you play with blindfolds on. You can see the board when you set up and I guess you'll need to take them off to maneuver but if everything is supposed to be "done in your head" then you shouldn't be able to look at the board either.

Why is the stupid 'no-measuring' rule in the game anyway? I believe it is there to avoid people wasting excessive time plotting each and every thing they do. I can support that reasoning but if you can look at the board for however long to visually measure a move to determine if it will go you quickly get to a point where some form of measurement is perfectly reasonable.

Edit: Also if we can premeasure, better make sure you don't hit those asteroids before maneuvering! Pre measure, we wouldn't want you to hit them!

Ok, if there is no measuring except when explicitly stated I hope all of you play with blindfolds on. You can see the board when you set up and I guess you'll need to take them off to maneuver but if everything is supposed to be "done in your head" then you shouldn't be able to look at the board either.

"Must estimate in their head" doesn't preclude any other form of estimation. Is there another rule that explicitly forbids any form of pre measuring?

Welcome to today's instalment of Wilfully Misunderstanding What Common English Words Mean Theatre.

I must admit I am occasionally guilty of "thinking out loud with my fingers" - which usually consists of me waving my hands around in a very vague representation of the manuevers I'm considering about 8 inches above the board.

It's never stopped me from totally screwing up a move - or telegraphing what I'm thinking to my opponent

In my local group, we typically play each other the same way you would in a tournament and hold each other accountable to the rules.

If somebody were pre-measuring with templates or their hands - we would call them on it.

It is very tempting to make sure your move will work, but you get better by making errors - NOT avoiding them.

If somebody forgets to take an action - we may give them a mulligan the first time, but they know they better not make the mistake again or have to suffer the consequence.

In general - sloppy play in a casual environment equates to sloppy play in a formal tournament environment.

"Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect." – Vince Lombardi

Ok, if there is no measuring except when explicitly stated I hope all of you play with blindfolds on. You can see the board when you set up and I guess you'll need to take them off to maneuver but if everything is supposed to be "done in your head" then you shouldn't be able to look at the board either.

Why is the stupid 'no-measuring' rule in the game anyway? I believe it is there to avoid people wasting excessive time plotting each and every thing they do. I can support that reasoning but if you can look at the board for however long to visually measure a move to determine if it will go you quickly get to a point where some form of measurement is perfectly reasonable.

Creates doubt on tight maneuvers as to if they'll collide, adds an element of risk to flying close to things. It more accurately represents an actual maneuvering situation: you don't know for certain if you'll collide until you actually execute the maneuver.

Also serves to weaken arc dodgers. We used to play with premeasurement on boost, barrel and decloak when we were worse with the rules (you could lay out the whole set of actions and take them all back) and TIE interceptors were insane. That ended after one game with pre-errata Echo.

Better idea. Maybe FFG should just loosen the rules on 'pre-measuring'.

This game is all about maneuvering and facing. Allowing pre-measuring would take a lot of the 'skill' out of that aspect. As I tell new players, a big key to this game is learning the ship's moves and the templates, ie Visualization. I spent hours flying my various ships around the kitchen table dodging knives, forks, D&D minis, all kinds of 'obstacle'. It really helped my visualization. Games are often won or lost because someone bounced Soontir off a rock early on, or a millimeter of thier Decimator/Falcon's base clipped the edge of the map. Pre-measuring takes all that away.

"Must estimate in their head" doesn't preclude any other form of estimation. Is there another rule that explicitly forbids any form of pre measuring?

That is exactly what that statement entails. How can you in anyway believe that a rule stating "Must estimate in thier head" means "May estimate however they want"?

This is astoundingly poor logic on your part.

I was one of the people helping run this event. Had I seen or been told of this behavior I would have spoken to the player immediately and made an announcement to the event. Had anyone done it again past that point I would have given them a game loss.

It is frustrating as a TO the number of things that find there way into your pre-event instructions. That I have to remind players to check thier damage decks, leave dice on the table after rolling, roll away from the ship's on the table, confirm all measurements with thier opponent, confirm all damage with thier opponent, announce all actions and abilities, play at a reasonable pace, and don't pre-measure with your fingers; is a bit disheartening. Hell I probably am forgetting a few things.