I get why you can’t apply the same ongoing effect multiple times. No problem there. But why not allow a more powerful version of the ongoing effect, if more Force dice are committed?

Why do you think it's okay to do one and not the other? If you can't activate a power twice sequentially, why is it allowed to have a 'double' activation?

There's no roll to activate enhances ongoing effect for Agility and Brawn, so mechanically there'd be no difference between activating it multiple times vs activating it "super-hard" once. It's completely arbitrary to allow one and disallow the other.

If you want to shoot a message to the devs, go right ahead. You can run your table how ever you want, but your interpretation is directly counter to the RAW. The part of my quote you cut out makes it clear as day you can't benefit from the same "ongoing force effect" multiple times.

You’re welcome to claim RAW and “clear as day” all you want.

The very fact that I have a completely different interpretation of the rules, based on reading those very same words, that proves to me that there is a lack of clarity here.

There's no roll to activate enhances ongoing effect for Agility and Brawn, so mechanically there'd be no difference between activating it multiple times vs activating it "super-hard" once. It's completely arbitrary to allow one and disallow the other.

If the developers didn’t want you to be able to commit more than one Force die in those cases, then they should have written something like this:

The number of ⬡ that need to be committed is listed in the effect; however, a character cannot commit more ⬡ than his current Force rating and the player may not commit any more ⬡ than is explicitly allowed in the listing of the effect.

Instead of this:

The number of ⬡ that need to be committed is listed in the effect; however, a character cannot commit more ⬡ than his current Force rating.

So, now we have a requirement for a clarification.

I’ve sent the message off to the folks at FFG, and await their reply. Whatever that reply is, I will post it in the FFG answers thread (and probably link it here), even if it doesn’t make any sense to me or I disagree with it.

[EDIT: Gack. Bad color choice. Let’s try something else.]

One other thing that I learned thanks to you guys is that you can only end an ongoing effect as an incidental at the end of your turn.

So I couldn't end the effect at the start of my turn to have my full Force Rating dice to roll a force power.

That's really a shame

One other thing that I learned thanks to you guys is that you can only end an ongoing effect as an incidental at the end of your turn.

So I couldn't end the effect at the start of my turn to have my full Force Rating dice to roll a force power.

That's really a shame

Huh. I had not seen that wording. Interesting.

You’re welcome to claim RAW and “clear as day” all you want.

The very fact that I have a completely different interpretation of the rules, based on reading those very same words, that proves to me that there is a lack of clarity here.

That did address it, with the parenthetical section. In fact you keep editing it out. You still haven't answered how you interpret the parenthetical phrase in that passage. Seriously, how do you interpret that explanation to mean something that doesn't contradict your interpretation.

This is all in addition to the rules that state multiple applications of the same bonus don't stack. If the devs had intended your interpretation, they would have stated the effect increases your ability by the number of force dice committed, they way they have with every other instance I can find where the amount of force rating committed is variable (see Intuitive Evasion, Force Protection, etc.).

I get why you can’t apply the same ongoing effect multiple times. No problem there. But why not allow a more powerful version of the ongoing effect, if more Force dice are committed?

Why do you think it's okay to do one and not the other? If you can't activate a power twice sequentially, why is it allowed to have a 'double' activation?

And you still haven't addressed this.

If they had meant to allow multiple die for an activation to make it more powerful, they'd specify it, like with Misdirect's Control upgrade to let you stack on more Threat based on the number of die committed to the power. There's also just the balance aspect of it as to why it shouldn't be allowed. Committing multiple force die to Sense to upgrade incoming attacks? Forget about things like armor, cover, or defensive talents, dump your XP into grabbing Force Ratings and you're a walking Despair machine.

This isn't to say you can't work it out with your group and get this going for your table (applying it to all, or just some effects), but it makes a lot of sense in general to have it the way it is in the book.

If they had meant to allow multiple die for an activation to make it more powerful, they'd specify it, like with Misdirect's Control upgrade to let you stack on more Threat based on the number of die committed to the power.

Maybe. There have been other areas of the book where they had to make clarifications, presumably because some people read it one way and others read it differently.

If you can accept that, then I don’t understand why you can’t accept the fact that I read it differently than you obviously do.

There's also just the balance aspect of it as to why it shouldn't be allowed. Committing multiple force die to Sense to upgrade incoming attacks?

They handled that explicitly by saying that you can’t upgrade more than once.

This isn't to say you can't work it out with your group and get this going for your table (applying it to all, or just some effects), but it makes a lot of sense in general to have it the way it is in the book.

Again, you are failing to understand that I read the book differently than you do, and I fail to understand why you can’t accept the fact that I read it differently.

Thus, the need for the clarification.

And no further “But I don’t understand why you don’t read everything exactly the way I do” from you or LethalDose or anyone else is going to help. If you’re not Sam or you don’t work for him, then you are not capable of providing an official clarification on this matter.

No, we get that you read it differently. The problem is that you're claiming your interpretation is correct and everyone else's interpretation is incorrect. We're trying to guide you to the point where you can see what we see: Your interpretation is likely (and almost certainly) incorrect because it is exceptionally inconsistent with other rules in the game.

I think I understand how you got to this conclusion, and I expect the others do as well. That doesn't mean we agree with you, and that's why we keep trying to explain to you why we think you're in error.

And no further “But I don’t understand why you don’t read everything exactly the way I do” from you or LethalDose or anyone else is going to help. If you’re not Sam or you don’t work for him, then you are not capable of providing an official clarification on this matter.

Is this a reading comprehension issue? Or are your just resorting to dirty rhetoric?

Seriously, this sentiment doesn't even remotely represent the content of my posts or the other respondents on this thread, and we're obviously not claiming to provide official clarification. And, again I think I even understand why you read it that way.

I'm asking you to respond to posed questions that you've specifically, and now repeatedly, ignored. I'm also bringing up new points (e.g. other examples of variable force dice commitment, stacking benefits, etc), that you're ignoring.

Instead you're trying to dictate how we post. And if I'm not Sam, you sure as h#ll ain't a mod.

There are powers and talents that specify exactly how many you can commit total, though (sometimes that max is all your Force rating). If you can always just load up as many dice as you want, then it why specify it in some cases?

I would actually turn that one around exactly 180 degrees. Precisely because they specify how many Force dice may be committed in a specific power or talent (or upgrade thereof), to me that means that for those cases where it would make sense to commit multiple Force dice if you choose and the power or talent does not otherwise preclude that kind of action, or where it wouldn’t make sense.

I get why you can’t apply the same ongoing effect multiple times. No problem there. But why not allow a more powerful version of the ongoing effect, if more Force dice are committed?

So what you are saying is that the cases where they say you can commit one Force die should be treated the same as when they explicitly call out that you can commit as many Force dice as you want?

I would also point out that there are a few cases where allowing multiple dice could cause confusion on effects. One example would be the upgrading the difficulty of incoming attacks with the Sense power. When that one is fully upgraded, a committed die upgrades two dice on two attacks. When you commit more than one, though, does that mean you get four upgrades or four attacks or both?

Side Note: I know that tone is hard to convey in just text, and that this discussion has become a bit of a pile-on, but I think there is room for a civil discussion about the issue in here somewhere.

No, we get that you read it differently. The problem is that you're claiming your interpretation is correct and everyone else's interpretation is incorrect.

I made no such claim. The fact that you think I did says a lot more about you than it does about me.

It is now clear to me that you and I are not capable of communicating with each other.

I’m done with you.

So what you are saying is that the cases where they say you can commit one Force die should be treated the same as when they explicitly call out that you can commit as many Force dice as you want?

I’m saying they were clear in certain cases, and not others. I would like clarity, from the developers, on those other cases.

I would also point out that there are a few cases where allowing multiple dice could cause confusion on effects. One example would be the upgrading the difficulty of incoming attacks with the Sense power. When that one is fully upgraded, a committed die upgrades two dice on two attacks. When you commit more than one, though, does that mean you get four upgrades or four attacks or both?

In the case of Sense, the developers were clear on the number of dice that could be committed. I’m not confused about Sense. I had been confused about Seek, but again the developers were clear — I just hadn’t read that part.

Side Note: I know that tone is hard to convey in just text, and that this discussion has become a bit of a pile-on, but I think there is room for a civil discussion about the issue in here somewhere.

I would have hoped, yes.

Anyway, you were apparently done with me when you stopped responding to the content of my posts, but okay.

Quoted for accuracy:

What [The transcribed passage] does NOT SAY, however, is that you can only commit exactly the number of force die that are specified in the power or talent, and the rule now is that effects can be activated multiple times unless specified otherwise.

(Underline & bracketed phrase mine, bold/caps are original)

Seems pretty clear to me you're stating what the rule is, not what your interpretation of the rule is.

I'm looking forward to seeing your response from the Devs, breh.

At the risk of necro'ing this thread, I came across more information that informs the situation.

The Misdirect power has a Control upgrade that allows the user to add Threat to incoming attacks at the expense of committing a force die. It is worded:

"Commit one or more [FD]: Add an automatic [Threat] per [FD] committed to all combat checks made against the force user." (F&D Core, p 297, first column, last paragraph).

This is clearly an example where a 'commit' power is intended to be applied multiple/variable times in an activation. Enhance doesn't have this language. If it had been the intent of the devs to allow Enhance's 'commit' upgrades to be applied a varaible # of times, those upgrades would have this language, or similar language.

Still waiting to get an answer back from the devs.

Yeah, well, apparently I'm wrong as **** on this.

Not sure how that decision is supposed to be evident from the RAW, but, w/e.

Yeah, well, apparently I'm wrong as **** on this.

Not sure how that decision is supposed to be evident from the RAW, but, w/e.

****. Shii Cho and Ataru just got really good.

Yeah, well, apparently I'm wrong as **** on this.

Not sure how that decision is supposed to be evident from the RAW, but, w/e.

****. Shii Cho and Ataru just got really good.

Why do you say Shii Cho and Ataru got really good ??

Why do you say Shii Cho and Ataru got really good ??

Because you can use Enhance to pump their relevant Characteristics at a rate of 1/FR

Yeah, well, apparently I'm wrong as **** on this.

Not sure how that decision is supposed to be evident from the RAW, but, w/e.

****. Shii Cho and Ataru just got really good.

Why do you say Shii Cho and Ataru got really good ??

Because they run off of Brawn and Agility respectively, which can be pumped up multiple times with Enhance.