Hm... I agree with the Tibs theme explanation (it's how I play), however, I think we're all forgetting something theme-wise. This investigator knows martial arts, and has an axe to boot. I see no problem theme-wise acknowledging she has crazy axe-fu skills, and deserves another +1 bonus.

MustardTheTroops said:

But she doesn't have crazy saber skills, or knife skills, or Sword of Glory skills.

At some point, we as a community should have a debate on whether theme and flavor text should influence our interpretations of the rules. I think there's lots of reasonable people who seriously disagree when it comes to significance of theme and flavor text. Is the Axe an axe, or is the Axe just a card that happens to be called "Axe"?

Hm... good point. I withdraw my reservation.

I vote for allowing flavor to influence rule interpretations, but only when the literal rule interpretation reasonably seems to conflict with its intended purpose.

For instance, I once had a friend who suggested he should be able to give people rides in his Patrol Wagon. This makes perfect sense theme-wise, but overpowers an item. That kind of theme using is a little much, and I think should be reserved for full RPGs. But for situations like the axe, theme is an excellent way to settle the intent of the card.

avec brings up another one of my debate points:

You could argue thematically that her Martial Arts training allows her to handle the Axe more effectively with one hand. But, again, why does that training only work when she has no weapon in one hand? And, as avec mentions, what's so special about the Axe and the Gladius, but not the Sword of Glory or Enchanted Dagger or Golden Sword, that makes it a particularly effective Martial Arts weapon?

The Axe rules weren't written poorly within the context of the base game. Some people may disregard thematic interpretations. However, this drifts into an uncommon realm where thematic interpretation will explain how a rule most likely would have been written if it somehow could consider specific components from future expansions.

Avec,

I'm truly not delving into the finer points of either Aristotelianism or Platonic thought...or the nature of the Axe or the card which represents the Axe. I just don't see the logic in which one can assume that the greater bonus is conferred through the use of the Axe and the Martial Arts skill. Don't get me wrong, when you and Tibs (or Avi or Dam) have a heated discussion, I'm grabbing the popcorn because I know that it's conducted well, fairly, and with no personal animus...I simply can't make the leap to assume that because you have an "empty hand" yoiu can garner the benefits from both the weapon and the skill.

The Professor (honorific title)

Tibs said:

Obviously Lily's Martial Arts training involved an axe and a Gladius ;') She didn't train with the other weapons.

@ The Professor

I don't know what you're talking about, I try to conduct all my conversations unfairly and with as much personal animus as possible, especially the ones with Dam ;'D

My answer is, as ever, play the rules as written (or to your detriment, if you prefer) until an official clarification is made.

P.S. I hope you grab that popcorn to eat, and not to throw at us... That will make me very angry!

I just realized this thread started in 2009... That is embarrassing, very embarrassing.

We've come a long, long way...

I actually don't think avec and I are in disagreement. But a lot of people come on asking "why do people think X?" and avec has an answer to that.

"It's obvious you don't get the +1 because theme!"

"It's obvious you get the +1 because the card says you do!"

Clearly if it truly were obvious, we wouldn't have these discussions.

On the assumption this won't be answered explicitly in the Miskatonic Horror manual, so it might as well be added to the ever-expanding FAQ:

If Rita Young gains Disfiguring Scars and Xenophobia:

- is she devoured?
- if not, do both cards take effect (apart from the devouring) or just the first one gained?
- if only the first one gained takes effect, what happens if Rita gets Scars, then Xenophobia, and then cures Scars - does she suddenly get Xenophobia?

(I would guess "No", "Yes, both", and "not applicable" from the strict wording of the cards, but "No", "First" and "Yes" is also plausible)

Can't we just assume that when Lily has an empty hand, that hand "becomes" a weapon ? Thus, no bonus for the axe or the gladius.

The reason why the Axe and the Gladius get a +1 for an empty second hand is, imho, because it's supposed used with both hands. Two hands on the grip means more power, more damage, so get +1.

In fact, i guess those cards should be errated in that kind of way : "You can chose to equip one or two hands with that weapon.

- if used with one hand, get +2

- if used with 2 hands, get +3."

cim said:

I would assume she wouldn't be devoured, and both would have effects, given how her ability works...

Hugues said:

A gladius is a short one-handed sword

Another obscure situation (though it only requires base game bits, in theory)

You read the Cabala of Saboth (Tome: spend 2 movement and make a Lore check to gain a Skill)
The skill you get is +1 Speed
Do you get the extra movement point immediately, or have you already been given your movement points for that turn?

There are a few other effects that could increase your Speed in the middle of the movement phase:
- Dhol Chants gives you a +Speed ally
- Use the Premonition spell (actually a plausible use for it - put sneak up to sneak past a monster, then once you're past cast Premonition to put speed up and get two more movement points)
- Discard the Astral mirror when Icy conditions or a similar environment is in play

A strict reading of the rules suggests that you wouldn't get the movement points until the next turn, but on the other hand items like the motorcycle allow you to gain movement points in the middle of the movement phase, so why wouldn't gaining a point of speed do the same?

Similarly, if you lost speed in movement - Premonition or Astral Mirror, again - would you then lose movement points mid-turn?

You guys have been having a big discussion on using the Axe and the Martial Arts skill working together at the same time. Well what about Brass Knuckles? How does that card work thematically with any other weapon or skill? Say you have the Shotgun and Brass Knuckles, thematically it just doesn't make sense. I mean your shooting the monster not punching it. Anyways, I just thought I throw that in for discussion.

For simplicity's sake, Brass Knuckles just adds a +1 to combat checks. Making it exempt from Shotgun's 6s would complicate things enormously.

With the Martial Arts case, it isn't simplicity that is in question, so much as intent of the Axe. The intent of Brass Knuckles is not argued. Nor is the intent of Martial Arts.

Here's a question...and maybe this has already been answered somewhere. If so, I apologize.

If a card has "cannot be lost or stolen unless you choose to allow it" on it, how does that interact with the loss of items if you're knocked out? (I don't have Dunwich Horror.) Do you still count it in your item count? I assume that if you choose to discard it there, you still lose it (because you "choose to allow it").

On a more general note: if this doesn't affect KO/insane item loss, what does it affect? I imagine it would ignore Ithaqua's start of battle power, but I guess that there must be other cards it could impact that I just haven't seen yet?

Also: what do the two hands on Intervene mean? Does it just mean you can't cast another Intervene for that same combat if you have it? Or just that you can't cast another for that same combat check, but could cast a second Intervene if that same player has to make another combat check (even in the same combat)? Or does it mean that if you cast Intervene you've used up your hands for that turn, so if you get in another combat you're dead meat? :-P

Those have mostly been answered already, I think.

Still counts in your item count. Means you don't lose items if they're all of that sort, though. (So if you had two derringers and the deputy's revolver, and then got knocked out, you'd keep all three if they were your only items)

Does make them immune to Ithaqua, yes. There are encounters that "steal a common item", which, again, if your only common item is a derringer...

It's not a very useful item property, in general.

Two hands on intervene. You can use it as a combat spell in your own combats, though 2 sanity, and 2 hands, for only +3, makes this a last resort. (If you cast intervene in someone else's fight, and then get into combat yourself later that turn, no problem - same as if you cast double wither in one fight you have your hands free again in the next fight, and could even the wither spells between combat rounds to use dynamite even within the same fight [1])

Whether if one person has both Intervene spells (or something that allows them to unexhaust a spell) they can then cast it twice into someone else's combat I'm not sure. "Do hands restrictions apply outside of combat?" [2] is another one for the FAQ, then. (Can someone with the Broken Hand injury from Dunwich Horror cast Intervene at all? would be answered as a consequence)

[1] Don't forget the Wither spells would then be exhausted, though, so you couldn't pick them up to recast in combat until next turn.

[2] From strict rules, I think the answer is No, but the base game doesn't have any spells that require hands that you'd want to cast outside combat, so the rules aren't clear there.

Might also want to add "if you have two copies of a particular spell, can you cast them both to affect the same check?" For instance, if I have 2 Intervene, or 2 Sigil of Hermes Trismegistus, can I cast them both in relation to a single check?

Might not matter with Sigil as I don't know if there are two of those in the deck or not, but I know there's at least 2 Intervenes.

For Intervene, if yes, you could presumably add +6 to a player's combat check if you were willing to deal with the large sanity hit.

I think the general two-spell thing is fairly clearly "yes". If you have two Mists of Releh, and the first one fails, you can always use the second one. You can use two Voice of Ra to get +2 to all checks for the rest of the turn. It's only spells with hand requirements where it's possibly an issue.

Here's another, from a discussion Avi and I had in the custom investigators thread.

Does "Call Down the Storm" add to just one combat check (like Intervene), or does it set up a condition to add to every combat check in the neighborhood until the end of the phase?

Effect: Cast and exhaust while in Arkham to add +2 to any Combat check that takes place in your neighborhood until the end of the phase.

Avi read this as adding +2 to just one combat check, reasoning that otherwise it would have read "every Combat Check." I read it as adding +2 to all combat checks taking place in that neighborhood until phase end, reasoning that otherwise it would have read "one Combat check" or "the next Combat check."

Stupid word. "any" can be interpreted as "Any combat check that happens" or "any one combat check" before the end of your turn...

Because of the cost I'd err on the side of every combat check, but I don't have the card, so I haven't exactly had to use it yet...

I don't find this card that confusing, but I haven't really thought about it as much as you guys seem to have. I'd definetly say that this card is intended to add +2 to all combat that takes place in your neighborhood until the end of whatever phase you cast it during. It might just be one combat or it could be several, but it effects all.

Sdrolion said:

Actually, to add to the ambiguity, notice it says "any combat check" instead of "any combat checks."

In real life, if someone says, "we'll sell our product to anyone with enough money," they don't usually mean "we'll sell our product to any ONE person with enough money, but no more than one person." So, I don't think "any" necessarily means "just one."

avec said:

"Anyone" has a specific meaning. It's not quite comparable.

FYI, I agree with Ecno and think the diction is inherently ambiguous (and will require official errata to clarify).