Well you're probably already aware that I can't disclose anything in the FAQ, and you may or may not know that the project has changed hands at least once during my involvement, which has resulted in changing rulings I might have disclosed earlier. I think the vague "+3" for Martial Arts / Axe was one such entry. So so far as anyone knows, the MA/Axe ruling is back up in the air. But you guys know I personally always play for intent, and I insist that FFG would have worded the Axe differently if Martial Arts was a base-game skill.

Tibs,

I'm not sure of the question in this case. It seems very straightforward to me.

Axe offers an option of +2 to the Combat check w/one hand or +3 to the Combat check w/two hands.

Martial Arts (MA) offers a Combat check of +2 for every empty hand you have.

Thus, you have the following possibilities with two "usable" hands [broken Hand injury: You have 1 fewer hand to use during combat ~ which discounts the use of a hand]:

Hand 1: Axe +2 / Hand 2: MA +2 for a total Combat check bonus of +4
Hand 1 & 2: Axe +3 for a total Combat check bonus of +3
Hand 1: MA +2 / Hand 2: MA +2 for a total Combat check bonus of +4

The Professor said:

the problem is that the axe does not state that you use your second hand to get the extra +1, only that you get it if your second hand is empty. thus, you would get the extra +1 and martial arts at the same time, as the hand still is empty. and therein lies the dilemma.

Taurmindo said:

I got the lawyery, but why, under a logical point of view, you should receive an extra +1 if not because you use your empty hand to wield as well the axe? In my vision of the game, you cannot receive two bonuses for the same thing (a +2 for MA since you use a single handed weapon and another +1 because you don't have a proper weapon in the hand you use for your kung fu fighting). If you devote your empty hand to the Axe, then that weapon is a +3. If you devote it to the MA skills, then you get the MA bonus and the Axe is +2. And as Tibs noted, there weren't MA in Arkham when the axe arrived

Yes exactly: it's all in the wording.

It's pretty clear the intent of the axe is that you're gripping it with two hands and making it a more effective weapon. The base game and the three expansions before Kingsport had exactly zero instances where the wording on Axe became a problem (unless you count Marie Lambeau's Third Eye as existing even if it's not using a weapon, which is just asinine).

But I'll be damned if there haven't been a couple forum users who argued tooth and nail that you get both the MA and Axe +1 bonus, and that Martial Arts gives Marie Lambeau another +2 for her Third Eye.

Are you saying that a literal interpretation of the rules isn't always the best approach?

I certainly am. However, I don't think this is an issue of rules.

There is an Inner Sanctum encounter, for example, that refers to an Exhibit Item that doesn't exist. In fact, the item's name was changed during development, but a literal reading of the card would indicate that the investigators should never get an item.

There is an infamous Ma's Boarding House encounter that lists two pass outcomes but no fail outcomes. One of the pass outcomes is that you lose 1 stamina. Again, a literal reading results in you both helping and failing to help move a piano if you pass your fight check, and nothing happening if you fail.

And you might argue that these two examples represent obvious mistakes. Well, what is it that makes them obvious? Such rationale should lead one to conclude that the reason the Axe is a more effective when one of your hands is open is that the other hand is obviously being used to grip the axe for a more effective swing. Logically, this disqualifies that hand for a Martial Arts bonus.

Another line of rationale would have you wonder: what's so special about the Axe and the Gladius of Carcosa so that you can execute a special Martial Arts bonus with them, but not with any other blades?

Julia,

As always, I love you!

Tibs,

I get it, but I certainly don't understand the issue ~ those claiming to gain both the MA +2 and the extra +1 from the Axe stuns me.

The Professor

Tibs said:

You could also make the axe more effective by pushing your target off balance with your free hand to get a clean hit...

But I'm just being awkward I would agree 100% that you are using both hands to hold the axe. If anyone wants to disagree then we can have an axe on axe duel, where I hold my axe in 2 hands and you hold it in one hand with your other hand empty.

Timber!

A one-handed wood axe doesn't strike me as a particularly effective weapon. Could you imagine flailing around with that thing? Maybe it should have been +1 when in one hand.

Tibs said:

Hmm. Personally I don't quite buy it. My position is that you can't just bracket out the theme as so much "flavor text" without also compromising your ability to interpret the rules. In other words, a literal approach doesn't work in the long term. However, in the case of the Inner Sanctum and Ma's Boarding House encounters, both literalists and non-literalists would reach the same conclusion. Literalists would argue that the IS encounter refers to a Triune Mask, for which there is not a card. Non-literalists would agree, and point out that the Triune Mask is probably an alternate way of referring to the Mask of Three Fates. Both viewpoints arrive at the conclusion that the IS encounter should refer to the Mask of Three Fates.

With the Axe and Martial Arts, it's a different story. Literalists would argue (correctly) that the rules are unambiguous on this point. The Axe confers a +3 bonus when the "other" hand is empty. Martial Arts confers a +2 bonus for each empty hand. Therefore, if one hand is empty and the other hand holds an Axe, the total bonus is +5. And they're right.

Non-literalists point out that the Axe is an axe. If you swing an axe with two hands, you can swing it harder than if you're using one hand. And if you're using your second hand to help swing the axe, that hand cannot also be making a karate chop. Literalists dismiss this line of reasoning as irrelevant. The Axe isn't an axe, it's a card with the word "Axe" on it. To them, the rules are unambiguous, so there is nothing more to be said. To the non-literalist, the rules are (to a certain extent) an attempt to model reality. If that model is flawed, it should be corrected.

My point is that literalists must agree that there is a flaw with the IS encounter, since it refers to a non-existent card. However, literalists would not have to agree that there is a flaw with the Axe + Martial Arts combo. After all, this is a board game and any explanation of how the world works is just so much fluff. Like I said, I don't think the literalist approach is sustainable, but it for this combo at least the literalist arguemnt isn't inherently flawed as far as I can see.

Put another way: if Martial Arts and Axe were designed in the same expansion, would Axe have receive the same wording? Or would it have been more explicit with allocation of hands?

Wow, sorry Tibs, Avec lost me at 'literalist' interpretation of game cards...

This is really not that difficult....

The Professor said:

And you call yourself a professor

avec said:

Well spoken. As it stands, the rules are clear: +5 for the axe and martial arts combo.

Tibs said:

Dunwich came with new versions of Flesh Ward, Lantern and Healing Stone. Kingsport neither came with new versions of the axe card or (so far as) a rule change/clarification, so unless FFG simply forgot the axe I don't see a problem.

tokse said:

...and the Cladius of Carcosa, which has the same spelling as the axe: "+4 to combat checks. +5 instead if your other hand is empty"

Flesh Ward and Healing Stone had typos. Axe did not technically have a typo.

Feel free to play the way you feel, but the rules are indeed not clear. I reckon the FAQ will declare that you don't get +5. But again, this is not an admittance of knowledge of its contents.

Here is another scenario:

You have the axe in one hand, for +2, and some one-handed magical dagger in the other hand. You decide to pursue a magically immune monster on the board, so you un-equip the dagger and don't replace it with anything. The axe bonus then jumps to +3.

Which scenario is more plausible:

1. The axe gets more effective because you've used your other hand to grip it.
2. Because your other hand is empty, the axe simply gets more powerful.

Tibs said:

The revised cards (Flesh ward, healing stone and lantern) had changes to the mechanics of the cards:

cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic263638_md.jpg

cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic263643_md.jpg

cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic263645_md.jpg

In the same way, if one assumes that the spellings on the axe-card and the "Gladius of Carcosa"-card are wrong, they should have revised cards that specify that they occupy both hands when gaining the extra combat damage. Or they should have rule clarifications/changes or a FAQ-response.

Hi, im new in this forums, greetings from an spanish player of AH. I have one question about the injury cards and the encounter phase:

The AH rulebook states that when an investigator goes to 0 Resistance, he moves to the hospital, loses half of the equipment, etc. and has no further encounters (he loses the encounter phase)

Reading the rulebook of Dunwich Horror, in the "Injury and Madness" section, the rulebook states that if an investigator takes an injury card, he moves to the hospital, and his Stamina is restored to maximun, don't lose the equipment, etc. BUT, the rulebook doesn't mention anything at all about the encounter phase.

My question is: Does an investigator that takes an injury or madness card loses the encounter phase, or he can explore the hospital or asylum in the encounter phase?

Thanks in advance :-)

Hey, another new forumite here - although we've been playing for a while - apologies if this is elsewhere on the forum, I couldn't find anything on it.

What happens if Mandy Thompson uses her re-roll ability after 'Skids' O'Toole uses his school of hard knocks ability?

Say he rolls 6 dice, gets two successes, and four failures, two of which are 1. He rolls another four dice for the two 1s, all of which fail.

Does he re-roll four dice (failures in the original check), 6 dice (failures not including 1s) or 8 dice (failures including the 1s). From the wording on the cards it seems to suggest 8 dice, as the two he rolls from his ability are bonus dice and not re-rolled dice, but this seems horribly overpowered at certain times (Roll ten dice, roll ten 1s, fail the next 20 dice, now I can roll 30 dice?) Not to mention thematically a bit strange - he'd get more powerful the worse he did The more I read the wording on the cards, the more I'm convinced that the latter interpretation (8 dice) is correct, but would be nice to hear people's opinion even if it's not FAQ material.

Cheers.

Tibs said:

Tibs, all your explanations take theme into account. I approve of this, but some people don't. Some people only take into account the wording of the cards.

Ashenbach said:

It's the former. I've asked that question myself at one point. You can probably find more about it by searching the forums.

The Professor said:

::smile::