I wonder how many cards they can produce per pack - and if they have a limit?

i agree that it would have been nice if they had included a 2nd EM, probably instead of a second Ion engine since 1 was probably enough, luckily i bought 2 Punishers and my buddy bought 2 K-wings and he hardly uses bombs or ordinance so he let me hang on to the EM's and Conner nets

Oh, FFG is trying to maximize profits. They figure if you treat the customer well, you'll get more business and more market share,

While that's true, I don't actually consider X-Wing's sales model "treating the customer well".

It's good for superfans and collectors who plan on buying several of every single item they release for the game. And terrible for everyone else.

If you're one of those people, then yeah, it probably seems like FFG is doing right by you. If you're any kind of actual, like, normal player, it really treats you like ****.

Oh, FFG is trying to maximize profits. They figure if you treat the customer well, you'll get more business and more market share, therefore more profit. What they're not doing is trying to maximize short-term profit, which is what GW has been doing. It has taken a while, but their methods have steadily eroded support for the company, while FFGs have enhanced the number and loyalty of its customers.

I never begrudge a company making money as long as I get value for what I spent, GW has been selling you less for more money for a long time but recently it's ridiculous they upped the price of a pre existing kit simply because they changed the base it comes with.

End of the day they want sell these new ships they just paid to have made and shipped over so they need to give you some incentives to buy.

GW would sell the tokens as a limited run for as much as the ship.

Exactly!!! FFG is in it for the long haul, maximizing profits over the long term and being more successful in the end! GW seems to think short term profits only and will probably fail as a company in the end! There is more to maximizing profits than just making the most money off each object. Sometimes less has to be made on one item to make significantly more on the next three!

Oh, FFG is trying to maximize profits. They figure if you treat the customer well, you'll get more business and more market share,

While that's true, I don't actually consider X-Wing's business model "treating the customer well".

Why?

I wonder how many cards they can produce per pack - and if they have a limit?

Good question!! I bet they do and they might have run into that with these!

I would imagine that they'd need an extra card board sheet to get those tokens, and the problem is you can't fit it into the blister packs.

I can see for tournament players needing the cards means buying ships you may not want to play but that's not the case for casual play where you can proxy.

The competitive section of any game tends to be quite small, how many x-wing players play competitively? 10% or less I'd guess so it's not a policy that effects the majority.

They can't include Autothrusters in a-wing and interceptor expansions because they've already shipped and it'd be stupidly expensive to recall and repackage all those ships, plus it'd negatively impact people who bought them years ago, the only reasonable way is to put it in with a ship that can use the card.

Yeah, the reason we didn't get multiple bomb tokens and/or another copy of extra munitions is there isn't enough space in the packaging for more than 2 cardboard sheets, and what we do get fills those sheets up.

Oh, FFG is trying to maximize profits. They figure if you treat the customer well, you'll get more business and more market share,

While that's true, I don't actually consider X-Wing's sales model "treating the customer well".

It's good for superfans and collectors who plan on buying several of every single item they release for the game. And terrible for everyone else.

If you're one of those people, then yeah, it probably seems like FFG is doing right by you. If you're any kind of actual, like, normal player, it really treats you like ****.

Uh, not really. A "normal" player has everything they need to use a ship once they have the core set and the expansion pack for that ship*. The only people who get the short end of the stick are competitive players on a tight budget, and unfortunately such players are in an awkward position in most collectible games.

*Arguably the Tie Interceptor (Needs PTL) and Tie Advanced (Just... bad) are the exception here, but those were poorly designed. I suppose FFG could re-release the original expansion packs with new cards, but that might cause more problems than it solves in the long run.

FFGs approach of using upgrade cards in newly released expansions to add options to old releases does have it's advantages and disadvantages, true, but the financially viable alternative (Periodically releasing $15-20 rulebook expansions**) poses similar problems for cash-strapped players. FFG's approach is also somewhat more aesthetically pleasing as you have nicely printed cards and tokens instead of scratch paper for list building and logistics like HP.

**Actual price might vary, but there would need to be a price to cover design costs and licensing fees from the Mouse.

4 K-Wings and 4 TIE Punishers so 8 copies of EM and 4 of each new bomb token. Plenty for me.

I suppose its a problem if you want run spam ordnance, which still seems a dubious prospect to me

The double tlt seems more useful overall

For the purposes of the k/punisher 1 is really all you need for those expensive and inefficient ships

Some good counterpoints have been made. I neglected to notice at the time of my original posting that both ships do include extra copies of other new upgrades.

But a second copy of EM would have likely been just fine with only one additional munitions token, and I bet room could have been made on the cardboard for that. That way the K blister can add to the functionality of a single Y-Wing with both turret and munitions upgrades.

I'm just perplexed FFG didn't take that opportunity.

Yeah, the reason we didn't get multiple bomb tokens and/or another copy of extra munitions is there isn't enough space in the packaging for more than 2 cardboard sheets, and what we do get fills those sheets up.

Are you sure?

(With a caveat: I do not have neither K-wing or Punisher, so I do not know how full the package is. And all my blisters are punched out and the cardboards stuff is sorted into other boxes. SO i cannot look up how many sheets there were:)

But the swedish translated expansions for the vanilla Ties, Xs and Ys come with swedish AND finnish cardboards and cards. Double amount of cardboard and card stuff!

So the blisters are really filled to the upper limit, but it is still the same blister size - it might have been possible to put extra bomb tokens into the Ks and Tie-Ps.

I'm just perplexed FFG didn't take that opportunity.

It's down to the number of tokens they can fit on the cardboard sheets and how many cards they can "fit" in the blister (that is, how many they can afford to print at a given MSRP and profit margin).

I took a convenience sample of ships:

• K-wing: 9 cards
• Kihraxz: 5 cards
• TIE Punisher: 9 cards
• Hound's Tooth: 13 cards
• Starviper: 9 cards
• Outrider: 13 cards
• Scyk: 5 cards
• TIE Phantom: 5 cards
• E-wing: 5 cards

It looks like they have three "sizes", corresponding to the size (and price) of the package. Regular fighters get 5 cards, Large ships get 13, and "medium" fighters get 9. If it's a hard cap, then the question isn't "why isn't there another copy of Extra Munitions," but rather "what card should have been bumped to include another copy of Extra Munitions?"

I'd argue - Maybe the flechette torpedos in the Tie Punisher Expansion - but... that's only because I have 6 already from 2 transports - and several more from e-wings... To others, is the Tie Punisher the first place to get Flechettes for imperials?

It is indeed imps mostly fire missiles.

I'm just perplexed FFG didn't take that opportunity.

It's down to the number of tokens they can fit on the cardboard sheets and how many cards they can "fit" in the blister (that is, how many they can afford to print at a given MSRP and profit margin).

I took a convenience sample of ships:

• K-wing: 9 cards
• Kihraxz: 5 cards
• TIE Punisher: 9 cards
• Hound's Tooth: 13 cards
• Starviper: 9 cards
• Outrider: 13 cards
• Scyk: 5 cards
• TIE Phantom: 5 cards
• E-wing: 5 cards

It looks like they have three "sizes", corresponding to the size (and price) of the package. Regular fighters get 5 cards, Large ships get 13, and "medium" fighters get 9. If it's a hard cap, then the question isn't "why isn't there another copy of Extra Munitions," but rather "what card should have been bumped to include another copy of Extra Munitions?"

Interesting results. I never considered whether there was a standard number of cards.

I do note that the K-Wing came with a thick stack of 5 or 6 reference cards, which seems like a record in my memory.

The only people who get the short end of the stick are competitive players on a tight budget, and unfortunately such players are in an awkward position in most collectible games.

I agree. Only problem is I don't consider this to be a collectible game.

I'm not one to rush out and buy 4 copies of one ship. I don't play rebels so I really hope to not buy a K wing as I hate the look of it.if I'd have know the Houndstooth was coming with Engine Upgrade id have never bought a Falcon. Point is I don't like to buy ships just for upgrade cards. I don't think I'm alone in this.

Munitions carries don't get played because they tend to be inefficient,extra munitions cards go a long way towards rectifying this and possibly leading to more sales of the Y- wing and TIE bombers.

How many of us had a TIE Advanced that sat on the shelf until the raider came out...with 2 advanced upgrade cards....

Hopefully the come in another set eventually like Prox Mines, as before the IG's they only came one in each Firespray.

The ghost expansion has both of the new bombs that people care about.

There is a significant limitation on how much can actually be fit unto the cardboard punchouts. They have to make each expansion they have to make each expansion under an assumption that players otherwise only have the core set. After the mandatory TL, ID, no shooting, dial, shield, base inserts and other tokens: there is only room for one net token.

The actual card is a limited one, and expansions only ever include one copy if an upgrade is limited. And getting 3 nets for the price of 2, or even 6 nets for the price of 3 would be insane for game play, so making it limited was the right call.

Well I bought 3 K-wings, and 3 Punishers so I have 6.

The only people who get the short end of the stick are competitive players on a tight budget, and unfortunately such players are in an awkward position in most collectible games.

I agree. Only problem is I don't consider this to be a collectible game.

FFGs approach of using upgrade cards in newly released expansions to add options to old releases does have it's advantages and disadvantages, true, but the financially viable alternative (Periodically releasing $15-20 rulebook expansions**) poses similar problems for cash-strapped players.

Completely disagree. Buying a $15-20 rulebook once every few years is infinitely better than having to buy multiple new $15-100 models(some of which might not even belong to your army) in almost every wave to keep your older ships performing up to par.

Anyway, this is all besides the topic.

As someone that owns two TIE Bombers and is getting two Punishers, I too am disappointed that the Punishers don't come with 2 Extra Munitions.

Given the purpose of the ship, I think it would have been better to get two copies of Extra Munitions, and only one Copy of Twin Ion Engine Mk. II.

As someone who comes from Warhammer 40k, a $15-20 rulebook every few years is something of an understatement. The books are more expensive, you buy them more often and you normally buy two or more depending on your number of armies.

FFG has set its distribution method. They only distribute cards in blisters and they don't change the composition of old blisters. As pointed out above, they do have broad limits on how many cards to fit into a blister. You can also see that they try to accommodate players by re-releasing certain cards in newer boxes (Stealth Device, Predator and Engine Upgrade are all nice cards that you can now buy in Scum). Within their own parameters it does look to me that they try to assist players. They do get hampered by the card count limitation and the idea that the ship should be self-contained with cards should useful to it. For example, the TIE Advanced needed a fix. Their chosen fix was to specifically address its flaws and they created two very good upgrades that only work with that ship. But without repackaging the TIE Advanced, their distribution channels were limited and so they chose to release it through the Imperial Raider and an extra TIE Advanced included with it. One could argue that it might have been possible to release it with the upcoming TIE Adv. Prototype, but I can understand it if they want to keep the two ships distinct. This meant that an improvement for a cheap old ship was coupled with an expensive new ship.

Despite that, I don't like that you have to buy "rules" or options for ships separately. It makes it very difficult to help new players get into the game. Besides considering which ships are good and easy to fly, you also have to remember which cards come from where so that you don't advise them to buy ships that rely an specific cards that don't come with that ship. The TIE Advanced is probably the best example of that. If you own the Raider, go ahead and buy a few. Otherwise, there are much better options in the Imperial side to buy.

For people like me who buy everything, this is not a problem. For the less fanatical, this is a headache.

It would be great if FFG could release a deck of cards in a blister of its own for upgrade cards. Although as I say this, I can see that it will also engender more complaining. Instead of someone being upset that he has to buy the new StarViper, he will be upset that he has to buy the new deck of cards which only contains one card that he wants. Or that he needs to buy two decks because they only contain two copies but he needs four.

I'm not one to rush out and buy 4 copies of one ship. I don't play rebels so I really hope to not buy a K wing as I hate the look of it.if I'd have know the Houndstooth was coming with Engine Upgrade id have never bought a Falcon. Point is I don't like to buy ships just for upgrade cards. I don't think I'm alone in this.

Munitions carries don't get played because they tend to be inefficient,extra munitions cards go a long way towards rectifying this and possibly leading to more sales of the Y- wing and TIE bombers.

How many of us had a TIE Advanced that sat on the shelf until the raider came out...with 2 advanced upgrade cards....

Hey I'm the same way, except I started a small Scum and Villainy fleet because I didn't want to buy ships just for upgrades. Now I'm debating whether or not to get a 2nd Starviper for 2 more Autothrusters.

And the Imperial Raider came with four copies of the X1 title, and four copies of the Advanced Targeting Computer.

Worked out fine, I already owned 2 Tie Advanceds, and my brother has 1, with the Raider we have 4.

I bought 2 K-Wings and 2 Tie Punishers. I have 4 extra munitions cards. Problem solved. ;-)

The only people who get the short end of the stick are competitive players on a tight budget, and unfortunately such players are in an awkward position in most collectible games.

I agree. Only problem is I don't consider this to be a collectible game.

FFGs approach of using upgrade cards in newly released expansions to add options to old releases does have it's advantages and disadvantages, true, but the financially viable alternative (Periodically releasing $15-20 rulebook expansions**) poses similar problems for cash-strapped players.

Completely disagree. Buying a $15-20 rulebook once every few years is infinitely better than having to buy multiple new $15-100 models(some of which might not even belong to your army) in almost every wave to keep your older ships performing up to par.

1) If this is not a game in which people build collections, what is it? I'm not trying to be snide here- I'm trying to see where we're disagreeing on what "collectible" means.

2) A $25* rulebook release would mean a new one every wave. An annual release would probably be closer $40-50. Also, I think the aesthetics of using a large army book would change the spirt of the game. The game is 2 weeks away from 3 years old. So we're either obsoleting each book every year in the latter case, or we've accumulated 4-5 books someone needs to own to be competitive. I think I prefer getting the rules I need for a ship in that ship's box. Plus, if you really need the actual rules from expansions, you can always print out the collected information from the FAQ- That's only two pages worth of information, by the way (Although the new bombs, SLAM, and Segnor's Loop might make it 3 pages once they update that part of the FAQ)

*I admit I'm raising the price from what I originally said, but I forgot to consider how rulebook pricing has risen since the days I could get a 150-250 page full size hardcover D&D supplement for $30 since I don't buy nearly as many rulebooks since 3.5 was cancelled.