thecorinthian said:

Fight and Clues let you pump in more shots and target weaker spots. For Handless Weapons, who is to you're not activating the Alien Device while blasting your Shotgun at the Cthonian? Pellets knock down the Zombie and in your berserk state you bash him with your fists, which have the said Brass Knucks.

Also, what do you see as the "very useful, but not directly" aspects of Shotgun vs Ghost, as opposed to say Tommy Gun, Flamethrower or Dynamite vs Ghost?

Dam said:

Yes. Really. 3 horror damage, 4 combat damage - one bad roll and you're meat. A resistance with 2 toughness. Unconventional movement that means it is always moving directly to an investigator on their last legs waiting to seal a gate. Lets not forget the -3 to evade. YES. And if you insist on disagreeing further, Ill send a pack of em round to your mum, girlfriend, boyfriend (?) and that little puppy dog you dont want anyone to know about.

Its not as bad as some, but for me it just makes the grade.

Shotguns vs. ghosts do not work!

dj2.0 said:

Horror damage looks bad, but is with only -1 to check (Hound for example -2 with 4 dmg). 3 Sanity damage is also enough for a San 3 investigator with Whiskey to take. 4 combat damage, sure, but because of only Mag. Resistance, your run of the mill Physical Weapons work full, so -2 mod shouldn't really even slow you down. And it doesn't automatically move to an investigator on their last legs, it moves to the nearest one and HH, like Hound, is easy to lure off to someone with Physical Weapons (Magical Weapons with Hound of course), meaning it'll go down like that (snaps his fingers ) and never be seen again. Hunting Horror might be a worry when drawn from "a monster appears" encounter and even then if you're ill-prepared for such an encounter, in which case, you should be punished for not anticipating things . I'd rather draw Hunting Horror than many other, tougher in combat monsters (whether by default or from GOO meddling).

The mods of HH arent the problem, sure, its the damage and the difficulty of escape. And it invariably hunts me down, in exactly the way described in my post (like all good monsters, it doesnt need rules to do that!). Its not a big threat in the cup, as there is only 1, so drawing it for an encounter is unlikely. But the potential damage is definately on the A list. Even if you have whisky and/or food, you wont be long for a visit to the asylum or hospital if you survive a failed roll.

To me -2 with 2 toughness and only Magical Resistance spells failed combat check very, very rarely.

Thats it! Warn your loved ones, they will never stop running

Dam said:

I don't see anything special about it; I was speaking rhetorically!

I'm not the one who cares about the rules realistically representing the theme. You just came up with contrived ways for the shotgun to help with the brass knuckles, but why can't you put that talent to use in making up a reason why the shotgun helps kill the ghost? Why is it that in most cases, you guys are willing to imagine some theme to justify the rules, but in this particular case, you're saying that the rule should be changed to fit the theme?

Exactly. The Shotgun isn't broken, it's just weird.

..... my my, I still didn't get the problem with the shotgun baaah, whatever.

thecorinthian said:

Because I can't come with anything that the Shotgun does that would affect an incorporeal being. If you say, well, maybe you shot the Ghost's focus/item that kept the Ghost haunting the place, why would Shotgun do and no other Physical Weapon?

The double barrel of the shotgun is an uncomfortable reminder of the two possible fates - heaven and hell - that await the ghost when he is finally released from this world.

avec said:

What about the Knife, does it have two edges? If so, why isn't it a reminder ?

So it boils down to this: house rule it, and spend eternity in deadlock, or FAQit, and aggravate half the players.

C'est la Cthulhu.

dj2.0 said:

Even if it got FAQ'd, I don't think there would be a horde of people clammering "OMG! No way! AH is too hard now!!!" At least not genuine claimers, maybe trolls like Avi . All that FAQing it would do is remove a gamey loophole, IMO of course.

dj2.0 said:

Shouldn't that be 'le' Cthulhu! Cthulhu is male!

@Dam: my point was it doesn't matter whether there's an easy rationalization in each case. A rule shouldn't be amended just based on the ability of one or more players to imagine what that rule might be meant to represent. For one thing, some of us might have more vivid imaginations than others! Trying to amend the rules based on theme like this is a bit of a 'slippery slope'. Every time you do it, you risk changing something which worked in an unrealistic way for a practical reason. Though I'll admit that this particular case isn't much of a problem - a more stringent Phys Immunity rule wouldn't have spoiled any later cards.

If you want to play with a house rule that reduces the effectiveness of the shotgun, go for it... but I take serious issue with any claim that such a house rule is a more accurate reflection of what the designers intended. Second-guessing what KevinW meant is a dangerous business, especially in a rulebook with as many contradictions as this one.

Plus, on the few occasions he's turned up on the boards, KW has been as confused as we are. (Although come to think of it, that supports your argument just as much as it does mine).

thecorinthian said:

It might be a theme reason or it might a clarification based on wording. To me "immunity" means whatever you're immune against, that does absolutely nothing, instead of current "does X but not Y", or semi-immunity.

Dam said:

I've never seen a knife with two edges. The axe that appears in this game has one edge. Cavalry sabers are typically curved blades with a thick backs. But a broadsword (like the sword of glory) has two edges - and it affects ghosts. Problem solved.

Dam said:

No offense, but it doesn't really matter what "immunity" means to you. Within the context of the game, "immunity" has been operationalized very clearly:

Physical/Magical Immunity: A Weapon or Spell that adds a bonus of the resisted type provides none of its normal bonus. (AH, p. 24)

What next, do we have to errata Cthonians because their toughness doesn't match your conception of them?

I may be repeating something said in this very long thread, but we played against the Dhole this afternoon.

Dhole

Description:

Physical Resistance

Magical Resistance

Toughness: 3 blood drops

Nightmarish 1 and Overwhelming 1

Horror: -1, loss 4

Combat: -3, loss 4

I am not sure if the Dhole was part of the original AH set, or came in with one of the early expansions. Nonetheless, this is a very bad baddie.

I wound up with a net of 5 dice on my combat roll, needing to get three hits. Amazingly, I got 4 hits. This was dumb luck.

Don't want to fight this guy any more than usual.

And we encountered Lloygor with "Weapons Immunity." Bad, but I believe a toughness of just 2 blood drops.

Expecting every investigator to be in a condition to defeat a hunting horror at all times is a pretty tall order.

Us mere mortals who actually think Zhar is tough don't fare so well.

I almost forgot about the Spectral Hunter. The only thing keeping him from running away with this award is the fact that he's immobile. Hypnos help you if you draw him for an encounter though.

Dam said:

I would rather be a troll than a tentacled monkey pig with a worm infestation like Dam ;'D

avec said:

None taken, Immunity in the sense the game uses it is a misleading term.

And I have no conception of Cthonians. Shotguns I know well enough.

thecorinthian said:

oh, is it now? I never looked...(yeesh)

C'est la Cthylla..?

Dam said:

I still disagree with your overall position, but my previous post was snippier than I meant it to be. Sorry about that.