Yes, well, Physical Immunity could always have done with being worded a bit better. For what it's worth, I prefer to play both the cross and the bullwhip as doing nothing if hands aren't devoted to them, though I'm pretty sure a FAQ answer has ruled the other way.

Do the people thinking shotgun works on Physical Immunes (which, to be fair, by the rules as written, it does) also think you need to devote two hands to it to get the double-6s ability?

YellowPebble said:

They better. Shotgun says, "When using Shotgun in Combat, all 6's rolled count as 2 successes." In order to "use" a Shotgun in Combat, you need two hands.

The cross and bullwhip are weak enough without forcing you to devote hands to get their effects.

Er... what's that shotgun house rule everybody talks about ? is that some kind of new house rule provided in the designor's house rules ?

Is it like the one about the clues in final combat ? because I've never added that one, it never interested me.

NO! Its nothing like that! Some people dont know how to use the shotgun is all. They think you can hit physically immune monsters with it. They seem to think that even if you add no dice from it, you can still wield it and count 6s as 2 successes. Like, blowing the ceiling beams apart and collapsing the roof on a monsters head. Same with the Azure Flame and magical immunity...

"But exactly what is the "alternate use" of a Shotgun that allows successes to count double against a monster that can ignore everything that a Shotgun is?"

AFAIK, the above or its variants is the most commony touted rationale...

dj2.0 said:

Blowing apart ceiling beams?! It's a shotgun, not a missile launcher. In any case, a collapsing roof is still a physical weapon. Unless of course it's the magical roof of the outer nether ancient old gods. With bells on.

dj2.0 said:

It is like that! We do! You can! It does! Has anyone actually read the 'Physical Immunity' rule? All that Phys Immunity does is reduce the bonus from the weapon to +0. It doesn't negate any special rules. And don't give me "thematic" explanations about shooting the ceiling or any of that rubbish.

(If you want to ease your conscience about using the Shotgun this way, consider that an amended Phys Immunity rule would have to be something vague like "All special effects and bonuses from those weapons are ignored". A blanket-effect rule like that limits your options when designing special Physical Weapons later. It's also not possible to come up with a simple watered-down version for Phys Resistance, so suddenly Phys Immune and Resist aren't equivalent to each other. Trying to come up with a catch-all definition of Immunity is mad; the sane way is for the rule to only affect the types of bonus which all Phys Weapons have in common, and not try to second-guess what effect you'll have by negating all special rules.)

Wow. I'd heard about the shotgun contraversy but never the specifics. Our group has always played by the simple rule of 'phyisical immunity means no to physical weapon'. Shotgun is a physical weapon. Of course we also play that even if blessed, only an actual 6 gets 2 successes.

RevGiark said:

I don't see how a Blessing would change when you can get double successes. Blessing only allows an extra number on the die (4) to be a success. It does nothing to 6es.

Now the Grapple skill, that increases each die result by 1... there's an interesting discussion. Do 5s count? Well according to the new FAQ, no they don't.

And they shouldn't, because if they did then a precedence would be set whereby you could argue that you can't use the re-roll ability of Wrestle when you also have Grapple, because you could never roll a 1. Nor could "Skids" O'Toole re-roll 1s on a Fight check when he had the Grapple skill.

thecorinthian said:

What's the case for Weapon Immunity over-ridden by Shotgun then? It's supposed to be effing "WEAPON Immunity", not "all weapons except shotgun and magical shotgun, which are only midly hindered by this" immunity .

The point about limiting later options doesn't really fly for me, as Phys. Immunity has been around since the base set and no weapons since have had any special ability that are touched by Phys. Immunity. It is only the Shotgun/Magical Shotgun that get something extra on-top of their combat bonus.

thecorinthian said:

I dont, since ill never use the shotgun/AF this way, and anyone who does deserves whatever foetid fate Arkham can throw at them

Its a simple enough change: shotgun pellets do nothing at all to the physically immune. Well, DUH!

There is a perfectly unambigous and clear rule that would prevent shotgun and other abuse:

"You may not use a phyiscal weapon in combat against a physically immune monster."

I.e. you can't devote hands to it and it therefore has no effect.

Note, of course, that that isn't what the rules actually say, but I think it's what they should say.

Incidentally, on the Azure Flame, again by the rules as written (though I wouldn't be surprised if a FAQ answered differently), this does in fact work against Magically Immune monsters, since the Azure Flame is a special card, not a spell or magical weapon.

I have slightly less problem with this. I hope no one contests that Summon the Beast Within works against any immunity (Physical, Magical, Weapon). But in any case a spell that penetrates Magic Resistance and Immunity doesn't seem unthematic. Whereas a shotgun that can somehow hurt a physically immune monster most certainly does, since it's a perfectly normal shotgun.

thecorintihian: It is like that! We do! You can! It does! Has anyone actually read the 'Physical Immunity' rule? All that Phys Immunity does is reduce the bonus from the weapon to +0.

And I was fine with that. I really was. It never came up in my games, so I was sitting over in the corner, mostly ignoring it.

Dam: What's the case for Weapon Immunity over-ridden by Shotgun then? It's supposed to be effing "WEAPON Immunity", not "all weapons except shotgun and magical shotgun, which are only midly hindered by this" immunity.

But that rules loophole sounds absolutely RIDICULOUS now. Weapon Immunity uses the SAME language as Physical Immunity, so either they both work, or neither of them work. To think that a Lloigor can shake off a Flamethrower...a Fetch Stick...the Lamp of Alhazred...the Sword of Glory...the Brazier of Souls...but a shotgun slapped together by marginally evolved apes STILL lets sixes equal 2 successes? Sorry. Too much. Belongs in the Silly column.

But the Azure Flame--a Magical Effect, not a Weapon--is perfectly legal to use against a Lloigor. Just because it's been nicknamed a "Magical Shotgun" for ages doesn't actually make it one.

So the real question is, should this be errataed, or house ruled?

Avi_dreader said:

It would kinda depend on whom you ask, wouldn't it? "Errata it! It's just wrong!" "House Rule it! It's perfectly legal!"

Either way, it's gonna tick off half of us...

GrooveChamp said:

Wait a second... Hound of Tindalos also moves into unstable locations though, doesn't it? I mean, it only says locations, but unstable locations are a type of location? Bleep... I better not have been using the hound wrong for the last four years.

jgt7771 said:

That's why I want you guys to vote so I can blame it on you ;'D

YellowPebble said:

Azure Flame is a "Magical Effect", same as Wither is a "Magical Spell" and as such, subject to Magical Resistance/Immunity. Call the Azure Flame gives you Azure Flame card to use.

YellowPebble said:

Are you talking about the +2 to Combat Checks from the Inner Beast? If so, I would say Resistance/Immunity do come into play. It's Magical and adds a bonus to your combat check.

Avi_dreader said:

House ruled. The problems raised with the shotgun are thematic, not mechanical. Therefore, any official changes should be to the card itself. Otherwise, you'd have an official rule buried in the FAQ that reads, "The Shotgun, which works perfectly well from a game mechanics perspective, has the following constraints on its powers in order to make it more thematic." You don't want novice players (or even expert players that don't follow the forums) not being able to trust what's printed on a card. Since it's also not practical to change the card itself, it should just be a house rule.

Avi_dreader said:

Not the hound. There's another special move monster that says he moves to the closest investigator in a street or unstable location. ITHINK he looks like a snake with wings. He gets my vote for deadliest monster. Him and the hounds are the only reason any of us ever bother with Bast tokens.

GrooveChamp said:

The Hunting Horror. Yes, its in the badass crew.

avec said:

Well said! I agree entirely.

Also, regarding what I said about why Phys Immunity might have this loophole: my point wasn't that the proposed extension of the original rule would necessarily have created undesired effects when applied to subsequent cards, because the chances are it wouldn't have. But that's still a legitimate design reason why the loophole might have been left in, and therefore we can't simply assume that the omission was an error. I'm guessing that even the Kevster probably didn't know how many expansions He'd get a chance to make, and He might not have wanted to save up trouble for Himself.

(Incidentally, I also think that the thematic arguments themselves are fairly arbitrary. If you regard the shotgun's special rule as purely the effect of the gun's pellets, then how are you justifying applying the double-6s rule to the dice you get from base Fight, from X-handed weapons, or from Clue tokens, even against non-immune monsters? If it's hard to explain how shotgun pellets can hurt a Ghost, isn't it also tricky to explain how those same pellets make your Brass Knuckles more effectly against a Zombie? I humbly suggest that combat isn't meant to be taken so literally, and that any bonus or special rule is meant to represent any one of a wide range of tactical advantages which may be only tangentially related to a gun's actual ability to pierce the target's hide. As a result, having a shotgun may prove very useful against a ghost, just not directly. Like most justifications that rely on theme, these objections to the shotgun are based on invoking "realism" as a reason for one thing working a particular way, but conveniently ignoring realism when interpreting a bunch of other things... )

Avi_dreader said:

My vote is for errataed.

Man this thread got derailed.

dj2.0 said:

Hunting Horror? Badass? Really ? It packs a measly "Magical Resistance", which is to say, pretty much nothing (you still have Magical and Physical options available). HoT at least has Phys. Immunity. All the HH tends to do is slow you down for 1 turn when you kill it.