I'm kinda lost.

As I get it first, there is system "you learinig language => you take "Linguistics (something)" skill. It can be exp consuming, but ok, Linguistics is int+general, so it's normal.

But later I noticed "Talents determine the languages a specific character knows, such as the Low Gothic of the masses, a feral world’s regional dialect, or even a xenos tongue." and "-30: Deciphering a completely alien language or understanding a language both unknown to the character and without any relationship to known languages. Deciphering a completely alien language or understanding

a language both unknown to the character and without any relationship to known languages."

So if I'm seeing it right, that's work such way. My character have "Linguistics (High Gothic)" and used to create poems. He takes ancient Eldar text, dating before Eye of Chaos opened. He roll his High Gothic with -30 and voila!

I belive it's silly a bit, isn't it? And what talents this text mentioning?

It looks like an abstraction to me.

For day-to-day use of a characer's known languages, no Test is necessary. However, once the contents of the text or speech you are studying are not entirely understandable without further effort at decyphering, a Test is called, and its difficulty will depend on how far removed from your known language/s it is.

The only problem I see is that -30 is a ridiculously low penalty for understanding a completely alien language. The example should make it clear that some sort of context is a basic requirement for any attempt at translation, else the translator is effectively just poking in the dark. Interestingly, this is actually mentioned in the Skill description, just missing from the table of modifiers.

As for the "talents", I believe this is merely a typo and the text is referring to specialisations .

Yes, that's my thoughts as well, and my first problem was "how should you determine your known languages". There is no any rules I meet but "everybody knows low gothic and some can know high gothic", and there is no any place in charsheet I saw. And - well, let's say I know low gothic and high gothic, and I haven't any Linguistics skill. Linguistics is Specialised skill, so it can't be used untrained. What should I roll to learn to learn some feral world cant?

My current rules are: you have your background languages, you can roll Linguistics untrained (with -20 for untrained and all penalties for unfamiliar languages included; you CAN try to learn Eldar with some context and with -50 to your Int on Extended roll; be my guest to try!), and you can have Linguistics (something) without really knowing that language - you've read books and researches some Inquisitorial sage write, and you know principles, but you don't know language itself. You can roll with that noticed -30 to do something requres Linguistics roll - to understand that stupid sleek witch who can't even learn gothic blabbling or to really learn Eldar.

But as I see that's not exactly that rules says, because even if text referring to specialisations, not talents, you have to learn Linguistics (something) for every language you know, and that contradicts skill description as well.

Everyone knows Low Gothic. If you come from a home world that has a different language, you know this as well. As a noble you can speak High Gothic, as a feral worlder you know the cant of your homeworld, which is most likely based on Low Gothic, so everyone who knows Low Gothic well enough (= you have the Linguistics(Low Gothic) skill) is able to roll with an appropriate modifier. If you don't have the skill you are not versed enough in the language to speak variations that o beyond a dialect.

To be able to learn new languages to speak, I'd say you need some kind of tutor (a person, cogitator, dictionary, ...) and time. If you invest that I'd say that, as long as it is no complete alien language, you can speak it. If you want to be really good in it (to write literature, speak to the unwashed masses, etc.) you need to buy the Linguistics skill.

If you want to learn a completely alien language (Eldar, Ork, Tau, etc.) you need to have a tutor and I'd say you need to buy the Linguistics skill.

Although the "everyone knows Low Gothic" is a simplification likely introduced to the RPG to keep things simple, like with the Trade language in D&D which, somehow, everyone in every nation on the world knows, making it even more prevalent than English or Chinese on modern day Earth. I distinctively remember codex material talking about the Imperium needing translators when they're raising an Imperial Guard battle group from different worlds to make sure the regiments actually understand the orders they were given, simply due to sometimes vastly different dialects.

If a GM wanted, he could probably demand a Test on Low Gothic every time the group visits a new world, especially ones that aren't as tightly connected, and have the result determine who among the group might actually understand the locals. This could have an interesting effect on the game, as the usual "face" character may need another party member to translate for them (negatively affecting their social abilities, like a -10 "anti-assistance" modifier), or the group even needs to hire a native translator and thus possibly compromise parts of their secrecy -- or throw up the interesting moral question on what to do with this translator once their mission is accomplished. Last but not least, it'd make learning and improving languages more important.

On the flipside, it could as well be reasoned that the majority of the worlds visited by the PCs have been colonised by the same people, so languages at least in this sector are similarly enough to not warrant these Tests, as the RAW hint at.

When it comes to interacting with Feral worlds, I'd say it depends on how you interpret mankind's colonisation efforts during the Dark Age of Technology, and the evolution of Low Gothic as a language. Perhaps the original colonists already spoke a predecessor of Low Gothic, so that their current language and the Imperial one are closely related -- like, say, German and Danish? In this case, a small penalty should suffice to have a character with Low Gothic try and make sense out of what they hear or see, based on their own, related language. Again, this is probably what the RAW wants to tell us.

What I don't get is why FFG went with this convoluted method. What was wrong with DH1s method of giving everyone low gothic during character creation ?

Do the Orks have a language of their own, or do they just use a looted form of low gothic ?

What I don't get is why FFG went with this convoluted method. What was wrong with DH1s method of giving everyone low gothic during character creation ?

Huh, I didn't actually notice that yet -- guess I just assumed it'd be like DH1.

It could make sense, though, if the game wants to push a difference between just understanding Low Gothic, and using it as a basis for translations. In other words, you have to specifically buy the Skill if you want to try and understand other languages (= being allowed to roll a Test) as opposed to just talking with your own people. Then, if you successfully mastered the other language too (= purchased it as another Skill for XP), you can use it without rolling the dice.

Or at least that's what I would take away from this here.

About low gothic I'd say it's kind of... well, we have Ecclesiarchy all over the Imperium. I'm quite sure they're making their kind of teaching - after all it's core tenet of Imperial Credo to oblige Administratum, so you want to explain your flock what is Administratum and how can you see it's orders. So you want to teach them Gothic too - just to let them listen/read their orders.

But as Imperium is vast and communications there limited by telepathic means and rare ships flying-in, we have all kind of language strife here. From little strife in Segmentum Solar to effectivly another language in galactic Far East, with xeno influence somewhere.

By the way High Gothic in my opinion is Terran Gothic. So psykers knows it, but as their "background" language, as well as homeworld one.

What I don't get is why FFG went with this convoluted method. What was wrong with DH1s method of giving everyone low gothic during character creation ?

Everyone knows how to speak Low Gothic at character creation. It's just that Linguistics (Low Gothic) is used for the finer details of the language. It's like in reality: Everyone knows their native tongue, but not everyone knows the history of the language, has studied it or is a poet. Speaking Low Gothic and having Linguistics (Low Gothic) is like heating a pre-made burger in the microwave and cooking a five-star dinner: Both can be eaten, but one is far more advanced.

It could make sense, though, if the game wants to push a difference between just understanding Low Gothic, and using it as a basis for translations. In other words, you have to specifically buy the Skill if you want to try and understand other languages (= being allowed to roll a Test) as opposed to just talking with your own people. Then, if you successfully mastered the other language too (= purchased it as another Skill for XP), you can use it without rolling the dice.

I would totally agree with this. It is much easier to learn new language, if you studied one before and know how languages function on a basic level. That's what Linguists learn. To apply this knowledge to some other form of communication lets you make educated guesses, which really helps.

As for using it without rolling the dice: I'd say that just speaking a language that is not entirely alien (that is: it is based on the human mind and therefor understandable concepts) is manageable without dice rolls, as soon as the GM decides that you are fluently enough for the concept that you try to communicate. "Hello my name is ...", "I'm thirsty", "Give me a beer, please" are easy sentences even a beginning learner can put together.

By the way High Gothic in my opinion is Terran Gothic. So psykers knows it, but as their "background" language, as well as homeworld one.

I always thought of it as Low Gothic being my native tongue and High Gothic being classical latin.

I always thought of it as Low Gothic being my native tongue and High Gothic being classical latin.

I think the idea was that High Gothic was Latin, and Low Gothic was English. That's why, say, ship names/nobles/fancy places all have fake Latin names.

I think the idea was that High Gothic was Latin, and Low Gothic was English. That's why, say, ship names/nobles/fancy places all have fake Latin names.

As I said High Gothic is not dead, it's not just language of science. It's official language of Imperium, after all.

Yes, that's kind of Classical Latin, but not modern Classical Latin but something about 3rd century Classical Latin. Yeah, there are thousands of local languages all that subjugated tribes use, but Latin is governmental language, and it's Roman form is the main. And it's in force, not just something you vaguly remember when you want to name a ship.

What I don't get is why FFG went with this convoluted method. What was wrong with DH1s method of giving everyone low gothic during character creation ?

Everyone knows how to speak Low Gothic at character creation. It's just that Linguistics (Low Gothic) is used for the finer details of the language. It's like in reality: Everyone knows their native tongue, but not everyone knows the history of the language, has studied it or is a poet. Speaking Low Gothic and having Linguistics (Low Gothic) is like heating a pre-made burger in the microwave and cooking a five-star dinner: Both can be eaten, but one is far more advanced.

You repeat what's in the rulebook without saying why FFG chose to make that distinction at the cost of losing the distinction between characters who can speak low gothic and characters who can not speak it at all.

As I said High Gothic is not dead, it's not just language of science. It's official language of Imperium, after all.

If we consider the inspiration for the Imperium of Man to be not the modern world, but (to a large degree) the antique and medieval one, the comparison is quite apt. Latin was the official language of the Roman Empire, but that did not prevent the rise of many different locally "bastardised" versions in its provinces for much the same reasons (lack of steady communications, people turning more towards their local lords than the central authority).

That's exactly I've said next phrase, haven't I?

You repeat what's in the rulebook without saying why FFG chose to make that distinction at the cost of losing the distinction between characters who can speak low gothic and characters who can not speak it at all.

I can only assume that FFG did it for convenience. It is assumed everyone can speak it, so that a group of Acolytes hailing from different backgrounds can communicate with each other. But nothing hinders you to play a Character that is not fluent with Low Gothic. And of course there is nothing that speaks against (I'd even say it is likely) NPCs that don't speak Low Gothic or have only a little fluency in it.

And you lose a rule for distinction of a char who can or cannot speak Low Gothic, but you get a rule to differenciate someone who speaks it from someone who has studied it. I like it better the way it is, because you don't need a rule to say someone just doesn't speak a language, but you might need a rule to see if someone can identify a text written in some obscure dialect.

What I don't get is why FFG went with this convoluted method. What was wrong with DH1s method of giving everyone low gothic during character creation ?

Agreed. Linguistics is a mess. It seems like someone didn't finish editing it from the first version of the beta when it was its own unspecialized skill and the languages a character knew(specializations) came from a seperate place (hence the wierd mention of talents in the first few sentences).

On the one hand it seems like its meant to represent the languages a character knows and different ways of using those languages as demonstrated by the examples of what the tests are for. However then the examples of modifiers almost exclusively talk about translating unknown languages. If the specializations are for languages you understand you shouldn't even be able to test a specialization for a language you don't know (more evidence that most of the description was for the unspecialized version of the skill from the early beta). Translating should completely fall under trade linguist.

Character creation is also pretty lacking on giving out linguisitics skill specializations. It gives out high gothic in a few places but doesn't bother with low gothic anywhere, further confusing how much characters are meant to know it already. Plus, are characters supposed to just know background languages like tribal dialects and such in the same way as they "know" low gothic or do characters have to buy linguistics for those things. Its all really fuzzy.

What I don't get is why FFG went with this convoluted method. What was wrong with DH1s method of giving everyone low gothic during character creation ?

Everyone knows how to speak Low Gothic at character creation. It's just that Linguistics (Low Gothic) is used for the finer details of the language. It's like in reality: Everyone knows their native tongue, but not everyone knows the history of the language, has studied it or is a poet. Speaking Low Gothic and having Linguistics (Low Gothic) is like heating a pre-made burger in the microwave and cooking a five-star dinner: Both can be eaten, but one is far more advanced.

It could make sense, though, if the game wants to push a difference between just understanding Low Gothic, and using it as a basis for translations. In other words, you have to specifically buy the Skill if you want to try and understand other languages (= being allowed to roll a Test) as opposed to just talking with your own people. Then, if you successfully mastered the other language too (= purchased it as another Skill for XP), you can use it without rolling the dice.

I would totally agree with this. It is much easier to learn new language, if you studied one before and know how languages function on a basic level. That's what Linguists learn. To apply this knowledge to some other form of communication lets you make educated guesses, which really helps.

As for using it without rolling the dice: I'd say that just speaking a language that is not entirely alien (that is: it is based on the human mind and therefor understandable concepts) is manageable without dice rolls, as soon as the GM decides that you are fluently enough for the concept that you try to communicate. "Hello my name is ...", "I'm thirsty", "Give me a beer, please" are easy sentences even a beginning learner can put together.

Even Only War just gives all characters low gothic at the known level I believe.

Sort of giving it to all characters but not really is just an unnecessary and confusing divergence from how every other skill works (especially specialized skills). Add to that how poorly put together and confusing the rest of the skill description is and its hard to tell where the line for what requires a test is and what the skill is really even meant to be for. It doesn't make sense to be translating eldar with Linguisitics low gothic tests but if you have linguisitics eldar then you already know that language so it stops being about translating an unknown language and just testing to see how smoothly you go from one known language to another. The examples of when to take a test all relate to using your language for fancy purposes but then the test difficulties talk a lot about translating unknowns.

The skill is written like an unspecialized skill for most of its description as if they forgot to update it when the languages a character knows went from being talent related in v1 of the beta to being specializations like they are now.

You repeat what's in the rulebook without saying why FFG chose to make that distinction at the cost of losing the distinction between characters who can speak low gothic and characters who can not speak it at all.

I can only assume that FFG did it for convenience. It is assumed everyone can speak it, so that a group of Acolytes hailing from different backgrounds can communicate with each other. But nothing hinders you to play a Character that is not fluent with Low Gothic. And of course there is nothing that speaks against (I'd even say it is likely) NPCs that don't speak Low Gothic or have only a little fluency in it.

And you lose a rule for distinction of a char who can or cannot speak Low Gothic, but you get a rule to differenciate someone who speaks it from someone who has studied it. I like it better the way it is, because you don't need a rule to say someone just doesn't speak a language, but you might need a rule to see if someone can identify a text written in some obscure dialect.

Reading an obscure dialect, or containing uncommonly used words, or even damaged text/recording, can be handled the same way it's done now: Make a skill roll of the appropriate difficulty. Pass and it's understood, fail and it's not.

Someone who hasn't studied the language will have a harder time understanding it than someone who has. But if it's still in Low Gothic, I'm not willing to say that understanding is impossible. Just more difficult.

If the obscure dialect is so different that it's not Low Gothic, then someone who has studied Low Gothic will not be able to read it because it's not Low Gothic. If they still want to read it, they either need to have that specific language skill, or use trade (linguistics) to leverage their knowledge of languages in general. If it's similar to a language they know, then I'd have them make two rolls. First for the similar language. Each DOS on that roll gives a bonus to the trade roll.

No hard cutoff between "You can attempt to read this with a roll modifier of x" and "you don't get to roll the dice even if the guy with the Low Gothic skill would get +60".

Reading an obscure dialect, or containing uncommonly used words, or even damaged text/recording, can be handled the same way it's done now: Make a skill roll of the appropriate difficulty. Pass and it's understood, fail and it's not.

Someone who hasn't studied the language will have a harder time understanding it than someone who has. But if it's still in Low Gothic, I'm not willing to say that understanding is impossible. Just more difficult.

If the obscure dialect is so different that it's not Low Gothic, then someone who has studied Low Gothic will not be able to read it because it's not Low Gothic. If they still want to read it, they either need to have that specific language skill, or use trade (linguistics) to leverage their knowledge of languages in general. If it's similar to a language they know, then I'd have them make two rolls. First for the similar language. Each DOS on that roll gives a bonus to the trade roll.

No hard cutoff between "You can attempt to read this with a roll modifier of x" and "you don't get to roll the dice even if the guy with the Low Gothic skill would get +60".

I studied the german language at universtiy and that included middle high german. If you have not studied it, you may recognize words and think you got the gist of it, but most of the times, you would be wrong. Words change their meaning, grammar and spelling change considerably and you got a whole lot of false friends in there. Without a good dictionary you are f***ed up most of the times. Add that to the difficulty of reading the texts from that time at all (the letters look a whole lot of different) and you got a really good mess. It has a reason why everyone who studies it has to take a language course.

And to the middle ages it is just 800 years. Thats a lot shorter than the time spans in wh40k.

Try your luck with Old high german without studying it. No chance!

The same applies to the forefathers of modern english as well.

As middle high german is part of the genesis of the language you can assume that it would be part of the Linguistics (German) skill.

The GM might (if the circumstances fit) allow you to test Intelligence with the untrained modifier (+ a big malus imho) to understand some strange dialect, but if you studied Low Gothic you can reverse engineer the changes in language and deconstruct a dialect someone who speaks Low Gothic as native tongue can't even try to understand (= roll Linguistics with a lot smaller malus).

The same applies to the forefathers of modern english as well.