So we did our first adventure today, the beginner box everything went pretty okay though one player went down to 4 hitpoints and another got two crits but they managed it regardless to get the ship.

Now space combat against the 4 ties began,

first shot was 8 dmg (11-3 armor) and we actually forgot about the linked property so it would have been 16.

The crew managed to kill 2 ties and damage the third down to 2 hitpoints in the following rounds and then the ship was disabled.

So my question is did we miss anything to make it less deadly?

The Pilot did his thing to upgrade the difficulty every time and the deflectors where angled but with 4 boost die (3 handling + 1 aim) a yellow and 2 green its relatively easy to hit vs 1 red,1 purple and 1 black.

The dmg which would be at minimum 7(6base +1hit) * 2 - 6 (2 * armor) = 8 seems also pretty excessive since 3 hits maximum (2 is also possible) is enough to "destroy" you. The mechanic check atleast gave 4 Hits back which was an avg roll but it just wasnt enough to deal with this onslaught.

The only way I see to beat this encounter is to be first on the initiative and destroy two ties the very first round (with characters not especially trained for space combat this is quite a difficult task ^^).

On another note Piloting seems very lackluster all the maneuvers you do create an equal downside and more successes in the pilot skill dont give you any bonus (shouldnt it make it harder to hit you / success when you do evasive maneuvers really well (ie bonus setback dice for the attackers?)

Anyway the whole thing ended in basically a tpk which is kind of upsetting for an introduction...

First off, a vessel's Handling only applies to Piloting checks, not Gunnery. That alone looks like it contributed heavily to your result.

Secondly, I will agree that the existing pilot rules are lackluster. For what it's worth, the rules for chase scenes at least are solid, and allow characters to put their Pilot skill and talents to use. A dogfight in open space is pretty similar to a firefight in an empty parking lot; the only useful thing to do is shoot and that makes everyone bored and dead. I use some house rules and would be happy to elaborate on them, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for.

Finally, just like with personal combat, exceeding a vessel's Hull Trauma threshhold does not mean it is instantly destroyed and the characters on board perish . Like personal combat, it depends on whether the ship is crewed by Minions, Adversaries, Nemeses, or Player Characters. Turning random TIEs into fireballs is perfectly fine, but there's much more flexibility for PCs and major NPCs. The ship takes a Critical Hit when it exceeds its threshhold, and is disabled so none of its major systems work Only incredibly high critical hit results (140s-150s) will actually destroy the ship outright, and even then it is perfectly acceptable to have characters survive with critical injuries of their own. Repairs can still be attempted, characters can survive inside or escape. An Imperial capital ship may come to capture them, or scavengers may rescue them in exchange for their ship. Maybe the crippled hull falls back into the planet's atmosphere, and the PCs have to struggle to hold it together long enough to survive the crash.

The Star Wars RPG rules do result in combatants (whether personal or vehicular) being incapacitated relatively quickly compared to most other mainstream RPGs. Death , however, is much harder to come by and is mostly a matter of plot. Personally, I think both of these are good things; the former keeps combat quick and emphasizes tactics over attrition, while the latter keeps players engaged and strengthens the story.

Space combat, like most combat in this system seems to be pretty brutal, and the advantage of initiative is pretty spectacular in this system.

There are, however a few things that can help mitigate this beyond the "death by dice roll" is actually pretty hard to come by.

First, remember that a lot of "staying power" comes in the form of talents. Much like parry, reflect, sidestep, and dodge type talents can help someone survive in personal scale, things like tricky target, defensive driving, and brilliant evasion can also help increase how long you can stay alive in a fur ball. Add to this if the party is on a ship much like the Falcon or Ghost, while the pilot and gunners play a big in this, anyone else on the ship has some options to help beyond ducking for cover in their bunks and hoping things go well. A damage control team can help keep system strain down, co-pilots can help keep the ship flying smoothly, and when also else fails someone can start doing the math to Jump the Big L and get out of dodge before things get too dire. This is an advantage above and beyond the higher amounts of Strain and Hull Threshold the larger vessels have over snub fighters. Keeping the unfriendly snub fighters as minion packs helps control the volume of incoming fire while allowing friendly shooting to take the pressure off without instantly ending combat.

Second, if you need to down-tune an encounter while the lasers are flying, play up the stereotype that fighter pilots are a cocky lot. Have one or two fighters wave off their buddies as they are certain they have the situation under control. This turns it into the martial arts movie trope of all the bad guys attacking one or two at a time so the hero isn't overwhelmed with crushing numbers.

Hope that helps!

So my question is did we miss anything to make it less deadly?

.

Vehicle combat is pretty deadly, but I'm I'm seeing a lot of little mistakes that certainly made it deadlier then it's supposed to be...

Some examples:

• Linked is not automatic. Just like everything else there's an Advantage cost (2 per activation) so the TIE will only get 2 hits if they have the advantage to spend and the GM is willing to spend it on that. Also remember that each linked hit is a separate hit, not a big deal here, but it'll help you down the road if you get it right in your brain now.
• Handling is not added to gunnery checks, so the TIEs would only get a boost from Advantage/Threat expenditure, aiming, and the other usual methods.
• Angling deflectors allows you to put more defenses in a single zone. So on a YT-1300 like the Krayt Fang with defenses of 1/1 you'd be able to put 2 Black into the difficulty. Unless the TIEs Gain the Advantage (which they are good at doing) they'll just have to suck up those 2 black. If they GtA, that's an action, so the players would have essentially a full extra turn of shooting while the TIEs got into a better position.
• The Pilot (and in fact all players) can use their Triumphs and Advantage to penalize the opposition or grant themselves bonuses.

The Escape from Mos Shuuta is a rather flat encounter, but those things might help you a bit. Sounds like you just got some numbers, tables, and dice pools wrong and that allowed the TIE to hit a lot harder then intended.

Ah good catch the handling thing we did indeed wrong, thats at least 3 blue dice less which is something noteworthy, thanks for that!

And I would be very interested in house rules since the space combat rules seem a bit too much nerrative focused for my taste. I even thought about incorperating the x wing game (I am sure there are about a billion conversion rulesets available by now)

Sadly in the beginner game my players didnt have anything in talents the starting xp and the stat upgrade limitation kind of make stats the main concern at the start.

Though to me the beginner adventure should not require talents to get through it

At later stages I have seen quite a few nice things that could make a difference though.

linked in the beginner game just costs 1 advantage (weird I know) which most rolls in our game could accomplish (though with the 3 wrong blue dice)

I think gta was not allowed by the ties in the starting game only evasive maneuvers.

deflector angling sadly is also "not allowed" it just gives you a flat 1 deflector to everywhere.

Yes I think the blue dice error on gunnery did make all the difference since it pretty much canceled all the actions taken and allowed for more link activation.

But as I said I would very much like to see some of the addtional rules you have to get it a bit away from the nerrative style since the pilot character was kind of upset about his character choice.

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone

I feel like I've said this umpteen times, but I'll repeat it one more time: SPACE COMBAT IS NOT DEADLY! It's debilitating , sure, but it's by no means deadly. Nobody dies (except minions and rivals, at the GM's discretion) when a ship of vehicle goes above its hull treshold. The vessel is disabled and suffers a critical hit, but it can be brought back online with a Combat Repairs action - just like a character who drops in combat can be revived with a stimpack or a Medicine check.

That being said, if no one has any talents from the Pilot or similar specializations things can get dicey for the players - which is why it's a really good idea for the character flying the ship to get into this talent tree. Defensive Driving is great for increased survivability, and Brilliant Evasion is downright awesome. The Mechanic tree is also great for staying operational, especially when you get to Hold Together.

Other characters than the pilot can also contribute greatly, and when several characters work together to operate the same starship you can get some great synergies. Have someone do the Boost Shields action, while someone (possibly the same person since one is an action and the other is a manoeuvre) uses Angle Deflectors. This is likely to bump your ship's Defence to 3 or so in a given fire arc. Then all you need is to make sure no one uses Gain the Advantage on you and every shot against you hits the arc where you have the best Defence. Pile on one or two manoeuvres' worth of Evasive Maneuvers and then use Gain the Advantage yourself (particularly powerful if you have someone other than the pilot crewing the guns) and you're going to be very very hard to hit.

Not a rules change, but something that helped my players a lot was a vehicle operations cheat sheet. Just a couple of pages that cover all the actions, maneuvers, and special options (Barrages, Point defense weapons, Astromechs) that can be easily reviewed during play.

My two biggest annoyances about all this:

1) The EotE beginner space encounter is so hamstrung and boring.

2) To get the full spectrum of vehicle/space encounters you seem to need 2 Cores, a GM Kit, and a Supp, as each one has a really important component or rule the others don't have...

And I would be very interested in house rules since the space combat rules seem a bit too much nerrative focused for my taste. I even thought about incorperating the x wing game (I am sure there are about a billion conversion rulesets available by now)

I would caution you against that. Others have more direct experience in this area, but many of the talents that PCs can have in the SWRPG do not have corresponding equivalents in X-Wing. So, you’d be throwing all those out the window.

Moreover, X-Wing is seriously deadly. In SWRPG, if the Hull Threshold of a ship is exceeded, then that ship is just disabled and not destroyed, unless it happens to be a Minion ship or something. In X-Wing, when the equivalent of Hull Threshold is exceeded, then the ship is actually destroyed, regardless of who is on it.

Feel free to use the models from X-Wing, if that helps you tell a space combat story that is more believable to you, but generally speaking the best thing for SWRPG is for the combat to actually be a chase through some sort of semi-dangerous environment (like an asteroid field or city buildings or something). This allows for lots of environmental challenges that the PCs will be more likely to be able to overcome through talents and skills, and then it’s a matter of time as to whether or not they can get away quickly enough.

Take a look at most of the space combat scenes in the movies. Either it’s a chase scene where a small number of TIE fighters are chasing the Millenium Falcon through an asteroid field (or some such), or the PCs are leading whole flights of fighters, pretty much all of whom get wiped out before they even get through to the big capital ships on the other side that they’re supposed to take out.

I will echo Joker Two’s comment:

A dogfight in open space is pretty similar to a firefight in an empty parking lot; the only useful thing to do is shoot and that makes everyone bored and dead.

Not a rules change, but something that helped my players a lot was a vehicle operations cheat sheet. Just a couple of pages that cover all the actions, maneuvers, and special options (Barrages, Point defense weapons, Astromechs) that can be easily reviewed during play.

My two biggest annoyances about all this:

1) The EotE beginner space encounter is so hamstrung and boring.

2) To get the full spectrum of vehicle/space encounters you seem to need 2 Cores, a GM Kit, and a Supp, as each one has a really important component or rule the others don't have...

This can be mitigated with some of the nice graphic player aids that GM Hooly has done. See my post at https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/85616-compiled-resources-list/page-23#entry1741199 for more information.

2) To get the full spectrum of vehicle/space encounters you seem to need 2 Cores, a GM Kit, and a Supp, as each one has a really important component or rule the others don't have...

could you elaborate on this?

I am guessing the edge of the empire core book, the rebellion book and ?

2) To get the full spectrum of vehicle/space encounters you seem to need 2 Cores, a GM Kit, and a Supp, as each one has a really important component or rule the others don't have...

could you elaborate on this?

I am guessing the edge of the empire core book, the rebellion book and ?

EotE Core:Basic Rules, Mentions how point defense weapons on capital ships work.

AoR Core: Basic Rules, Barrages for capital ship weapons

AoR GM Kit: Squadron rules (really needed if the players wants to fly starfighters in a timely fashion)

AoR Stay on Target: Astromechs, Specs that synergize well with the more dangerous/high performance fighters.

AoR-Arda: Mass combat checks (more a narrative mover than Star Wars 40k, but it's actually kinda neat)

None of these things are "vital" of course, each works fine alone or supporting it's related core, but if you really want to go full monty with the Falcon leading Gold Squadron against the Death Star, you really need them...

For inspiration, recall the boat chase scene in Quantum Solace. James Bond armed with a powerful fishing boat, fishing equipment and a pistol being chased by other boats and minions armed with assault rifles. A co-pilot (unwilling but still effective), fancy maneuvers, the terrain (lots of other boats and marinas) and clever thinking defeated the evil minions.

Also not sure if the starting adventure actually makes the Tie-Fighters act as a minion squadron. But I would deffo play them as a minion squadron, that will reduce the amount of rolls the krayt fang gets on it (albeit more chances for crits)

And I would be very interested in house rules since the space combat rules seem a bit too much nerrative focused for my taste. I even thought about incorperating the x wing game (I am sure there are about a billion conversion rulesets available by now)

You know, we really need to make this a sticky (or I am going to save my thoughts so I can just cut and paste 'em)

No - this is a terrible idea. It comes up all the time, and it's a natural reaction to think "Hey, the same company makes X, Y and Z! They MUST be compatible" - and no they're not. Not even close.

First - there's no real way to translate all the awesome pilot talents. Taking a quick glance at smuggler -> pilot trees, the Full Throttle talent is useless, there are no setback dice in X-Wing so there's no need for Skilled Jockey, there's no silhouette so there's no point to Tricky Target, and there's no agility score in X-Wing and thus no point to Dead to Rights. You might be able to salvage Master Pilot, letting someone shoot during the maneuver phase, but that's about it.

The Technician->Mechanic, someone who should also be as busy in a fight as the pilot, doesn't lose out on as much - but Fine Tuning and Hold Together are pretty pointless. And what about the crew that upgrades their ship in ways beyond what X-Wing covers? They just sunk all this time and effort into putting together a bitchin' ride that doesn't conform to the miniatures game.

And then consider that just one star-fighter combat will take all evening, even if you involve a small number of fighters. X-Wing is not a quick game, and I would rather spend that time role playing. Of course there's the matter that 5 out of the 6 players will be bored while one person does All The Cool Things.

And then there's the lethal factor. X-Wing miniatures die very quickly and easily. Now I guess you could say that any ship that gets a destroyed result is only dead in space, but that still doesn't change the fact that they will wind up in that VERY quickly. Plus, without a strain mechanic in X-Wing, you lose one of the vital components of combat - both ground and space: strain management. If the players are not running the ragged edge of strain at the end of a fight, you're not doing it right. You cant simulate that in X-Wing.

So yeah, it's a terrible idea. If you want to play X-Wing, play X-Wing. If you want to role play, play EotE. Don't combine the two.

So my question is did we miss anything to make it less deadly?

Also, one thing that everyone else has failed to point out? The TIE fighters in the beginner box have a misprint making them WAY overpowered. Or at least did - I don't know if subsequent printings have fixed this. But yeah, run the game as written and you'll wind up with dead/defeated players right away.

My group are going to be testing a shield point house rule. This will replace defence and probably armour as well (except on ships which rely on armour in place of shields). Shield points will regen a small amount each round and can be bolstered by a mechanics check. Shield points can also be rerouted to other zones. The shield points each ship gets is equal to its strain threshold added to its armour and its silhouette, and it regains its defence in shield points each round. I know that this is more paper work and moves away from the less is more style but I really don't like the shield rules as stand. I will post how it went once we have tested it properly.

And I would be very interested in house rules since the space combat rules seem a bit too much nerrative focused for my taste. I even thought about incorperating the x wing game (I am sure there are about a billion conversion rulesets available by now)

You know, we really need to make this a sticky (or I am going to save my thoughts so I can just cut and paste 'em)

No - this is a terrible idea. It comes up all the time, and it's a natural reaction to think "Hey, the same company makes X, Y and Z! They MUST be compatible" - and no they're not. Not even close.

First - there's no real way to translate all the awesome pilot talents. Taking a quick glance at smuggler -> pilot trees, the Full Throttle talent is useless, there are no setback dice in X-Wing so there's no need for Skilled Jockey, there's no silhouette so there's no point to Tricky Target, and there's no agility score in X-Wing and thus no point to Dead to Rights. You might be able to salvage Master Pilot, letting someone shoot during the maneuver phase, but that's about it.

The Technician->Mechanic, someone who should also be as busy in a fight as the pilot, doesn't lose out on as much - but Fine Tuning and Hold Together are pretty pointless. And what about the crew that upgrades their ship in ways beyond what X-Wing covers? They just sunk all this time and effort into putting together a bitchin' ride that doesn't conform to the miniatures game.

And then consider that just one star-fighter combat will take all evening, even if you involve a small number of fighters. X-Wing is not a quick game, and I would rather spend that time role playing. Of course there's the matter that 5 out of the 6 players will be bored while one person does All The Cool Things.

And then there's the lethal factor. X-Wing miniatures die very quickly and easily. Now I guess you could say that any ship that gets a destroyed result is only dead in space, but that still doesn't change the fact that they will wind up in that VERY quickly. Plus, without a strain mechanic in X-Wing, you lose one of the vital components of combat - both ground and space: strain management. If the players are not running the ragged edge of strain at the end of a fight, you're not doing it right. You cant simulate that in X-Wing.

So yeah, it's a terrible idea. If you want to play X-Wing, play X-Wing. If you want to role play, play EotE. Don't combine the two.

Yes a 1:1 mix seems quite impossible from what you wrote, too much stuff just doesnt match.

Though what about a more of eote then x wing approach ?

ie we take everything from edge and add just movement/firing range templates (and stuff happening with minis on a table obviously).

Then maybe add piloting checks (difficulty by handling) to use some of the tighter turns etc, allow stuff like staying on target etc.

The point however is that my players expressed their wish for a more "simulationist" approach towards space combat (though not too much ie I think making it happen on a table would be fine at first)... and I think this would be quite enjoyable too.

But this is maybe something for another thread, since my original questions regarding the space combat has been answered very well - thanks again all for the help.