I ask (rant? Yeah a bit), because there seems to be little appreciation/understanding for what any business ( in this case, FFG) needs to do to bring products to the market, and produce enough revenue to pay its bills, stay open, and actually make a profit.

And there seems to be little thanks for at least having a distribution model where you can buy knowing exactly what you will get in a given product, as opposed to random distribution booster packs (think WOTC Star Wars Minis, or CCG boosters).

I *might* be overly sensitive to this as a small business owner, but I'd like to think we'd all like FFG to be here for years, continuing to develop and support this and other games we love to play, just like I hope my own business survives and is highly profitable. If you ran one, wouldn't you want it to be? Or do you think since this is a hobby, and its costs you money, you don't care as long as you get yours as cheap as possible?

I still think its its great when companies and their owners make a profit, even a great big profit. People SHOULD be rewarded for their work. I can't imagine the licensing fees were cheap, and if no one bought their games, no one here would be queuing up to help pay those off.

So when they release a new product, you can get all cheesed-off about damage decks in new core sets, or upgrade cards you feel compelled to buy unwanted ships to get (both of which are easily sold off or traded), or you can look at sellers who break these up to sell (Team Covenant, Ebay etc.) to get just the components you want.

FFG is a business first, and I hope they continue to be around to make great games. To do that, they have to sell product, and they better make a good profit or why would they continue? Anybody here feel like working for nothing? Send me your resume.

You don't have to buy what they sell - its a game after all, but all the Monday morning quarterbacking over how they should run their business model the way YOU would do is dubious - unless you know all of their cost structures, overhead, employee issues, etc.

All in all? Thanks, FFG, for some really great games. I hope you're wildly successful and I hope the owners get stinkin' rich doing it.

Unfortunately can only "like" this once.

I think the production costs of a Boba fett figure would be about 50 cents or something? They could easily include him in the Twin Shadows box but instead you have to pay 10 bucks for him separately.

I think FFG have some pretty horrible sales models for cash milking. I don't think x-wing is as bad as some.

Also i thin their tournament support and obvious car to make good products garners a lot of good will, but they only garner good will becasue it's a good business model.

The problem isn't FFG, they make great games. It's the fans, specifically Star Wars fans, the most critical and hard to please fans in the world. (Sorry that should be impossible to please). And it's hard to run a business when you are sitting in front of a computer in your mom's basement complaining about how your plastic toy is 'broken' because it's overcosted by 1-2 points in an imaginary game economy.

I think the production costs of a Boba fett figure would be about 50 cents or something? They could easily include him in the Twin Shadows box but instead you have to pay 10 bucks for him separately.

But that's the real trick isn't it? You don't *have* to buy him at all to play the game. You don't *have* to play in tournaments and buy 6 of the same ship to build whatever meta-ized list you want to run. (ie - "you mean I have to buy xyz ship multiple times to get a card I want to play on 6 other ships?!)

I'm not trying to pick a fight, because this conversation has been had too many times in too many other threads - it boils down to a philosophic difference of opinion.

I think the production costs of a Boba fett figure would be about 50 cents or something? They could easily include him in the Twin Shadows box but instead you have to pay 10 bucks for him separately.

Well, the piece cost may be $0.50 (who knows) but that is not the only cost FFG bears in getting this to market. That's my point about overhead and not seeing the total cost structure.

Also, If they had included Boba in the Twin Suns box others would be complaining how they "had to buy the box set to get the only thing they wanted". No matter what they do, some faction will seize the opportunity to complain.

Not slamming you Talonbane, but there is a bigger picture.

FFG is a business first, and I hope they continue to be around to make great games. To do that, they have to sell product, and they better make a good profit or why would they continue?

Because they care about their product?

Companies motivated only by profit are the ones that set up sweatshops, fight moral legislation because they profit from its absence (such as law firms killing the US Patent Troll bill the first time around because it meant fewer frivolous lawsuits), treat lawbreaking (such as cartel forming) as a calculated financial risk rather than forbidden, exploit tax loopholes like crazy. Why do they act like this? Because the shots are called by people who don't really care about the business at all, they just invested in it in hope of a financial return later on.

FFG's CEO cares about the stuff his company makes. FFG's employees seem to too. And the private equity firm that owns Asmodee and FFG thankfully are leaving well alone. Maybe the business model of some of the miniatures games ended up a bit anti-consumer with the way upgrade cards and Imperial Assault's expansions are handled (A lot of that is down to lawyers, namely Hasbro's), but if FFG really wanted to milk this dry, they could be far, far nastier and get away with it.

Also, If they had included Boba in the Twin Suns box others would be complaining how they "had to but the box set to get the only thing they wanted". No matter what they do, dome faction will seize the opportunity to complain.

If they had included Boba in the box and not made the little expansions/tacked on Skirmish game then Hasbro would sue them for making a board game.

I would really like to know what the percentage of tournament players compared to casual players is. I suspect it's extremely small. And yet they're doing a good job of catering to both groups, although i suspect casual players could get overwhelmed if they introduce any more new mechanics into the game.

I don't run a business but I can count the number of employees at the company I work for on one hand so I am keenly aware of my impact on the whole company. We do not "manufacture" anything because it is more of a service company (I am a consultant) so I am not familiar with the logistics of such a company.

Occasionally we do some work for free to generate clients or do a client a favor, but we are not a charitable organization. We exist to make money. I enjoy getting paid. My goal is to not live in a large appliance container. I have been doing what I've been doing for almost 20 years so I know what I am doing.

FFG is a business first, and I hope they continue to be around to make great games. To do that, they have to sell product, and they better make a good profit or why would they continue?

Because they care about their product?

Companies motivated only by profit are the ones that set up sweatshops, fight moral legislation because they profit from its absence (such as law firms killing the US Patent Troll bill the first time around because it meant fewer frivolous lawsuits), treat lawbreaking (such as cartel forming) as a calculated financial risk rather than forbidden, exploit tax loopholes like crazy. Why do they act like this? Because the shots are called by people who don't really care about the business at all, they just invested in it in hope of a financial return later on.

Caring about their product is intrinsically linked to making a profit - the better the quality, the better their profitability and sustainability.

Its a false choice to say its either "care about their product" or "make a profit".

I appreciate your passion on where companies cross they line into unethical behavior. Certainly many do, but I don't think FFG is one of them at all, and surely not for not selling components a la carte (and it seems you agree here as well).

Caring about their product is intrinsically linked to making a profit - the better the quality, the better their profitability and sustainability.

Not strictly true, you could print tons of mass market crap you don't give a **** about just because people will buy it. FFG could halve their development effort and double their waves per year if they wanted to. Worse product, same price, but people would buy it just because it has Star Wars on it. The TIE phantom fix they spent ages on? No money in that. They did it because they cared. All these ship fixes? They could just powercreep new ones and make the old ones obsolete so people would buy the new ones. Smaller companies often take a small hit financially when they think it's the right thing to do.

Its a false choice to say its either "care about their product" or "make a profit".

Didn't say they were mutually exclusive at any point. It's when maximising profit (as opposed to making one ie: not making a loss) becomes the only object that things start to go wrong. I don't think FFG does that. There are many more ways they could milk the cow where they don't.

Games Workshop, on the other hand...

To the OP, I've never seen someone I regard as intelligent really complain about FFG's business model. It's probably the most customer friendly model in the industry for most collectible products that they make. They have excellent customer service and production values. You get what you pay for. Most people recognize this.

Cheap as possible please. I don't know anybody at FFG, and have no stake in FFG. I enjoy the games they produce if they are priced reasonably, just as I enjoy many other products that are fairly priced. FFG isn't stupid: why would they expect anything differently from me?

Great games and service, but lately their pricing is completely off the wall to the point where I just can't afford their stuff anymore. A big part of that is the poor exchange rate right now, which is outside of their control, but it's still bonkers. The Imperial Raider goes for $105 CAD + 13% tax. Forbidden Stars is $95 CAD + tax. Imperial assault is $95 + tax. The *expansion* for imperial assault is $50!

Meanwhile, great games with high quality miniatures like blood rage ($70), level 7 omega protocol ($65), Earth reborn ($55), Cyclades ($55), Wrath of Ashardalon ($56.95), etc. are priced MUCH lower, and in my opinion are on par with any game FFG produces (i haven't played blood rage or wrath of ashardalon though).

There's about 145 games in my collection, a good number of them are FFG, but I still have 120+ games that are excellent and NOT ffg.

If businesses operate to make a profit, then they shoudn't expect any particular loyalty from their customers. FFG doesn't exist to be nice to me, they exist to take my money and give me fair value in return. Setting their prices so high is their perogative, so that they can max their profit. But wth should I feel any concern or loyalty for them?

I *might* be overly sensitive to this as a small business owner, but I'd like to think we'd all like FFG to be here for years, continuing to develop and support this and other games we love to play, just like I hope my own business survives and is highly profitable. If you ran one, wouldn't you want it to be? Or do you think since this is a hobby, and its costs you money, you don't care as long as you get yours as cheap as possible?

Caring about their product is intrinsically linked to making a profit - the better the quality, the better their profitability and sustainability.

Not strictly true, you could print tons of mass market crap you don't give a **** about just because people will buy it. FFG could halve their development effort and double their waves per year if they wanted to. Worse product, same price, but people would buy it just because it has Star Wars on it. The TIE phantom fix they spent ages on? No money in that. They did it because they cared. All these ship fixes? They could just powercreep new ones and make the old ones obsolete so people would buy the new ones. Smaller companies often take a small hit financially when they think it's the right thing to do.

Its a false choice to say its either "care about their product" or "make a profit".

Didn't say they were mutually exclusive at any point. It's when maximising profit (as opposed to making one ie: not making a loss) becomes the only object that things start to go wrong. I don't think FFG does that. There are many more ways they could milk the cow where they don't.

Yeah like giving us the Gunboat! Gimme gimme gimme!

Too long;didn't read.

I support fantasy flight games making awesome Star Wars products by buying their products. They support my addiction by making more.

Yeah, I don't get the whining that some do, but expressing your opinion on what they're doing is ok. At the end of the day I try to do just that here, as well as vote with my money.

I'm ok with the new core set, so I'll buy it. I don't like small ship stuff being sold with epic ship expansions, so I express my opinion of it and then I don't buy epic ships. I don't particularly like that I have to buy a StarViper for AT, but you won't hear me complain about it because I don't dislike it enough to keep me from buying.

I guess what I'm trying to say is extensive hate and whining isn't good, but they ARE a business and I can offer my opinion, and I can CERTAINLY vote with my money. My money is my appreciation for their game. FFG are big boys, they don't need soothing comments and pats on the back. They know I like their product based on whether I buy it or not.

To me, FFG makes a quality product (X-Wing) that I enjoy playing at a price point I find reasonable. Would I feel the same way if the quality of the products was less and the corresponding price was less? Maybe. The game mechanics are very strong in my opinion. However, if the quality sank to the point of green army guys, then they would probably lose me as a customer. I like that the models are painted and durable. I like that they supply all the tokens necessary to play the game in each pack. I am willing to pay for that.

Then again, I am at a point in my life where I am willing and able to pay for quality. As I have stated before, I spend vastly more on my three sons sports endeavors than I spend on X-Wing. Probably orders of magnitude more.

I'm constantly amazed at how gamers in general can find fault in anything.

FFG planned something like 200 seats for X-Wing worlds. They sold out in less than an hour. People were frustrated, understandably. They figured out a way to add more seats, and some people were upset by the added seats. *sigh*

FFG can never please everyone. The only thing they can do is achieve a balance. Their products will be too expensive for some people. They will be lower quality than other people will want. IMHO they are doing a good job balancing the various desires.

Whiney forum trolls should just be ignored frankly. Cranky temper tantrums are a near constant all over the place online, based on limited or no real information. Ultimately speaking it's either mini-sociopaths getting their kicks, or just people venting. The near anonymity online brings out the worst in people.

I think FFG is doing a fine job.

dojimaster, there are a couple issues at play. The first is that a great many people on here have absolutely no understanding of how businesses actually need to operate in order to make a profit and stay in business. Explaining to them that their perceptions are inaccurate isn't worth trying to explain because most of them wouldn't listen anyway.

Second, we are dealing in large part an entitled generation, at least here is the States.

In short there are way too many people that have entitlement issues on top of having little to no true understanding of business.

Meanwhile, great games with high quality miniatures like blood rage ($70), level 7 omega protocol ($65), Earth reborn ($55), Cyclades ($55), Wrath of Ashardalon ($56.95), etc. are priced MUCH lower, and in my opinion are on par with any game FFG produces (i haven't played blood rage or wrath of ashardalon though).

I don't know these games, - maybe they are great. I am willing to bet they do not anywhere near the licensing fees as does any Star Wars product.

Sounds like you won't miss FFG or Star Wars. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable consumer position - "vote with your feet".

FFG is a business first, and I hope they continue to be around to make great games. To do that, they have to sell product, and they better make a good profit or why would they continue?

Because they care about their product?

Companies motivated only by profit are the ones that set up sweatshops, fight moral legislation because they profit from its absence (such as law firms killing the US Patent Troll bill the first time around because it meant fewer frivolous lawsuits), treat lawbreaking (such as cartel forming) as a calculated financial risk rather than forbidden, exploit tax loopholes like crazy. Why do they act like this? Because the shots are called by people who don't really care about the business at all, they just invested in it in hope of a financial return later on.

Caring about their product is intrinsically linked to making a profit - the better the quality, the better their profitability and sustainability.

Its a false choice to say its either "care about their product" or "make a profit".

I appreciate your passion on where companies cross they line into unethical behavior. Certainly many do, but I don't think FFG is one of them at all, and surely not for not selling components a la carte (and it seems you agree here as well).

Where do they manufacture their products?

China.

Many businesses in North America have closed their doors here and move there for one reason.

Money

China doesn't have strict labor laws like they do here.

The workers are paid much much less.

They don't follow health and safety regulations.

They don't care about their environment and the amount if carbon they produce is ridiculous.

There are villages there that are full of cancer because of the amount if pollution that these places produce.

Even in Japan I've been there and the smog that comes from China makes the sun a silver hue on some days (if the wind is right)

Even during their Olympics a few years ago they had to cg the fireworks because you couldn't see it Due to the smog

For these reasons and many others it's cheaper to produce in countries like China then ship back here.

If I could I wouldn't buy anything from China, but that's impossible these days

Didn't say they were mutually exclusive at any point. It's when maximising profit (as opposed to making one ie: not making a loss) becomes the only object that things start to go wrong. I don't think FFG does that. There are many more ways they could milk the cow where they don't.

Games Workshop, on the other hand...

There's the rub - who gets to decide when the profit is realized is "enough" as opposed to "maximized" ? In theory, I don't disagree, but when people outside decide they can judge "that's enough" the problems begin. They can't know all the factors and costs involved, nor should they decide what a person's time/effort are worth.

Guess who decides? The market - meaning you, me and anyone who buys, and more importantly, DOESN'T buy (as I'm thinking that's more than 99% of people just here in the US).

FFG is a niche business. If we're talking common everyday products with multiple competitors, then the temptation to cut corners on quality to compete at an ever downward spiraling price, THAT is when you see shady business practices more likely to occur. Yes, FFG competes with other companies for your hobby dollars, but not for the exact same commodtized products.

Shoot - my FFG X-wing spending (and time commitments) had blocked me from even considering FFG rmada until someone posted a link to a $40 core set offer. FFG has to compete with itself!

The first is that a great many people on here have absolutely no understanding of how businesses actually need to operate in order to make a profit and stay in business.

Yeah that is so true. I don't run my own but I understand some of what's involved.

I know people who are both shocked and dismayed when they find out what the retail markup on most items are. Because they don't understand what the overhead involved in running a retail store is. Some honestly seem to think that there's something wrong in charging that much more then the owner paid.

They're some I've talked to who seem to think that if something involves a game and/or hobby then the company should be doing it for the 'love of the game' and not to make a profit. Although the companies that do actually love their games tend to make more money IME, because they make better products.

But then again I know some people who think that profit is inherently immoral itself...

If I could I wouldn't buy anything from China, but that's impossible these days

I agree, but that ship sailed long ago, for many, many reasons.

But then again I know some people who think that profit is inherently immoral itself...

Unless / until they are the ones making a profit. Then its fine.