Indeed, the yanks are so easy to wind up it's like being in a room full of paranoid schizophrenics ;0

Yep there's a reason their products are over here (and are great too) when the likes of mantic have to kickstart everything and warlord make niche stuff.. (terminator and Dr Who excepted but both very new)

tbh the thread got boring ages ago (i was off playing a game ;0 )

I'm sure they'll see it; maybe they'll take notice. Doubt it. c'est la vie

I'll check with my local whether I can card proxy or not, problem solved. Now off to break heads on the mean streets of Sheffield. Maybe I can find an American..

First off, if you're playing Armada and thinking of tournament settings, then there are at least 4 other players in your area.

If you're just playing in a store, casual event, then ask the TO and other players if they would mind you proxying some cards as you "test out" some builds. I'm sure people at this level care more about playing and your sportsmanship than how much money you've sunk in the game. However, if you do find a card that works well, I doubt you can proxy copies forever.

Now, after a few store games, maybe you're looking into more official events. Or the store runs an "official" FFG event. Maybe now the TO will be a bit more strict and proxies will not be allowed. By this time, you'll have played against other players, established rapport/friendships, and so on and you can probably borrow the cards you want.

Having said that, what card EXACTLY are we talking about? Due to how much the cards cost (upgrade cost, not £££ cost), I doubt you'll need more than 3, and hopefully you already own 1 so you only need to borrow 2. I have one of each product released so far and the only really issue I'm having is the XI7 card... I'm not much of a Rebel player so buying another Neb B isn't really in the budget for now, but luckily, my builds haven't called for more than 1 copy of that card yet.

Why..is this

...even....a thread!!!!

It just devolved into nothing important.

This thread appears in every single collectible miniatures game that I've ever paid any attention to. People simply can't understand that the ENTIRITY OF ARMADA is a money-grab. Before they started selling it, somone had to prove to an accountant that it would make shitloads of money. That's how this **** works.

The only difrence betyween FFG and WizKids, is that FFG understands that you can make a pretty penny by keeping your customers happy.

Compared to other companies, I feel that FFG isn't "money grabbing" at all. The products are nice in terms of quality (compare X-Wing or Armada to Attack Wing Star Trek or D&D!), the rules are solid, easy to learn, but hard to master, and is good fun. I have X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, and all three Star Wars RPGs. I've just given away my copy of Conquest --- not because the game is bad but because I knew NOT having the game would make it easier for me to say "NO!!" to all the new stuff.

Compare this to GW's policy of releasing a rulebook every 2 years with only about a page or two worth of changes... or MTG's rotation of cards...

In X-Wing - some expansion DO have more than 1 of particular upgrade cards. The Raider expansion comes with FOUR (4) sets of TIE/X1 titles and Advanced Targeting Computer. They're not totally unreasonable.

Well in my area, players who don't have a ship, or say want to run a 3 X17 list but didn't buy 3 extra Nebulons tend to ask from their fellow players/friends. "Hey man, can I borrow your X17's if you aren't using them." "Sure good buddy."

You, stuuk, on the other hand, with your antagonistic manner, jingoistic behavior, and flat out unwarranted aggression towards other players for expecting you to STICK TO THE RULES OF THE GAME, I can see where you might have trouble finding friendly persons willing to let you borrow their stuff.

"Im going to go break some heads out on the mean streets." Good god. All I hear is some kid mewling about how "hard" he is. Can't believe i just read someone talking simultaneously about how badass he is and how much he doesn't care at the same time. You should change your username to Joe Cool, and we should sit at your feet and learn from your wisdom.

Intys.. x17 is the card I had in my head yeah. A agree, a pragmatic approach to the store owner is the way forward for me here.

Now for an Imperial-only player, the XI7 card will be a tough one to acquire. For a Rebel player, I wouldn't think so.

Having said that, as an Imperial player, how many XI7s do you really need? Sure, we'd all want 4 copies of the good cards, but IME, there are other cards I'd rather use than the XI7. Heck, I've not even used mine yet!

I think you've been crying over milk that has yet to be spilled.

I think you've been crying over milk that has yet to be spilled.

Absolutely, I just wondered on the consensus and so forth..

I quite like the X17, I think it gives the rebels a great punch against the VSDs.

I guess I just don't appreciate the 'collectable' nature of the game. To me, it has no such nature.

To the competition tournament player, perhaps it's just the same as Magic etc..

Pardon the aside, but could you all please fight a little more viciously?

It helps me get my daily dose of Dark Side without having to go outside and beat up little children.

nothing saying you can't use 1 up grade card on more then one ship in a game.

nothing saying you can't use 1 up grade card on more then one ship in a game.

Only if you have one card for each ship apparently..

Give me 3 hours Mikael, once I get off work I should be in a REALLY bad mood and ready for an Internet scuffle all good and proper. I haven't gotten any warning points OR locked a thread in a while. Should be a good time all around. ;D

But, if I want to use that card on all of my ships, I shouldn't have to go and buy several packs of Nebulon-B simply for the cards.

Nor should I have to trade for the cards.

Agreed 100%. But be careful, there is a bit of Stockholm syndrome for FFG on these forums. Pointing out that requiring physical possession of multiple copies of the same card is redundant, pointless and pure profiteering on FFGs part will elicit cries of "Entitled! Entitled!"

Hmmmm you do realize that it is like this with every game that involves cards right? No proxies are allowed in official games. TCG's, CCS's, war games, etc require this.

Even games like 40k require that you own the model to use it in a tournament setting.

Cards =/= models.

The cards in Armada are the rules. The equivalent argument would be that, to upgrade my Space Marine Squad to have a Lascannon, that I would be required to buy a new copy of the rules every time I wanted to use that upgrade. And worse, those rules might only be packaged with Eldar Guardians, so I have to buy models I don't even want, and multiple copies of them, just to use a rule that I already have a copy of.

Even being generous, FFGs tournament policy is akin to asking 40K players to buy another copy of their codex for each unit in their army. Then another copy again, each time they want to include an upgrade or option.

Look at it this way:

How many squadron cards do I need when I play Armada? Do I have 8 TIE Fighter cards because I've brought 8 TIE Fighter Squadrons?

No, I just have one. Because the card serves purely to tell me what the rules for a TIE fighter are. Why can't that principle be applied to ALL upgrade cards?

Well then, my two Imperial credits worth.

Requiring an actual card be present is simply another way to enforce balance. Some of the cards can only be found in a particular expansion, therefore limiting their availability. This way, you are forced to be selective as to what you bring to the table.

So you reckon some upgrades costing more is a deliberate balancing decision?

And you're OK with that? It's literally pay-to-win!

should you defeat me. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will

Lol what? "Profiteering" ??? Man this thread is fantastic for weeding out people i never have to pay attention to on this forum ever again.

The cards in Armada are the rules. The equivalent argument would be that, to upgrade my Space Marine Squad to have a Lascannon, that I would be required to buy a new copy of the rules every time I wanted to use that upgrade. And worse, those rules might only be packaged with Eldar Guardians, so I have to buy models I don't even want, and multiple copies of them, just to use a rule that I already have a copy of.

As others have said - play in casual games any way that you want, with whatever components you and your opponent like. However, in official tournaments things do have to be a bit stricter. On pg. 6 of the Tournament book, right under Legal Products it explicitly states: "Only official Star Wars: Armada components are legal for use in tournament play. Proxies of cards and ship models cannot be used."

I think you are mistaken when you say that the cards are the rules. They certainly have the rules pertaining to those cards printed on them, but they are also components telegraphing clearly to opponents what you have, and in many cases they are turned 90deg. to indicate that they have been exhausted. (Rules & Refernce Guide, pg. 6 under Exhausted).

The holding of tournaments is also part of the relationship that stores have with FFG. They are part of FFG's marketing strategy, and they represent expectations that customers have.

Is it a pay-to-play mechanic? Yes, of course. There's even a participation fee for tournaments.

It is a pay-to-win? No, it isn't. I've purchased far less material than most of the people I play with, yet I have more tournament medals than anyone in my community. (And, yes, I wear them at tournaments. I've noticed that the Dark Side rewards me with better dice roles if I express and exhibit Imperial hubris.)

I think you are mistaken when you say that the cards are the rules. They certainly have the rules pertaining to those cards printed on them, but they are also components telegraphing clearly to opponents what you have, and in many cases they are turned 90deg. to indicate that they have been exhausted. (Rules & Refernce Guide, pg. 6 under Exhausted).

Absolutely, but lets not suggest that gamers are delicate flowers unable to remember if an ability has been used or not, and that FFG are noble protectors, enabling us to navigate a game that would otherwise be unfathomable. Like me, I'm sure you've played many other games that used "exhaustible" resources or included alternate states and modes of attack and like me, I'm sure you were able to navigate those games without mandatory cards for reminders.

Having multiple copies of an upgrade card, because you've included multiple copies of that upgrade is redundant. I know how Expanded Hangar Bays work, I've got the card right here, why do I need another copy of it just because I want to put it on another ship? How does that help me or help my opponent? Is the visual reminder so important that it should be mandatory to include multiple copies of the same card?

The cards in Armada are the rules. The equivalent argument would be that, to upgrade my Space Marine Squad to have a Lascannon, that I would be required to buy a new copy of the rules every time I wanted to use that upgrade. And worse, those rules might only be packaged with Eldar Guardians, so I have to buy models I don't even want, and multiple copies of them, just to use a rule that I already have a copy of.

As others have said - play in casual games any way that you want, with whatever components you and your opponent like. However, in official tournaments things do have to be a bit stricter. On pg. 6 of the Tournament book, right under Legal Products it explicitly states: "Only official Star Wars: Armada components are legal for use in tournament play. Proxies of cards and ship models cannot be used."

I think you are mistaken when you say that the cards are the rules. They certainly have the rules pertaining to those cards printed on them, but they are also components telegraphing clearly to opponents what you have, and in many cases they are turned 90deg. to indicate that they have been exhausted. (Rules & Refernce Guide, pg. 6 under Exhausted).

The holding of tournaments is also part of the relationship that stores have with FFG. They are part of FFG's marketing strategy, and they represent expectations that customers have.

Is it a pay-to-play mechanic? Yes, of course. There's even a participation fee for tournaments.

It is a pay-to-win? No, it isn't. I've purchased far less material than most of the people I play with, yet I have more tournament medals than anyone in my community. (And, yes, I wear them at tournaments. I've noticed that the Dark Side rewards me with better dice roles if I express and exhibit Imperial hubris.)

I think you are mistaken when you say that the cards are the rules. They certainly have the rules pertaining to those cards printed on them, but they are also components telegraphing clearly to opponents what you have, and in many cases they are turned 90deg. to indicate that they have been exhausted. (Rules & Refernce Guide, pg. 6 under Exhausted).

Absolutely, but lets not suggest that gamers are delicate flowers unable to remember if an ability has been used or not, and that FFG are noble protectors, enabling us to navigate a game that would otherwise be unfathomable. Like me, I'm sure you've played many other games that used "exhaustible" resources or included alternate states and modes of attack and like me, I'm sure you were able to navigate those games without mandatory cards for reminders.

Having multiple copies of an upgrade card, because you've included multiple copies of that upgrade is redundant. I know how Expanded Hangar Bays work, I've got the card right here, why do I need another copy of it just because I want to put it on another ship? How does that help me or help my opponent? Is the visual reminder so important that it should be mandatory to include multiple copies of the same card?

I'm about as forgetful as they come, and need every possible mental crutch imaginable. It helps your opponent be clear about what each ship has. If I'm playing against you, I'm not going to memorize your list. I'm going to glance over to your side of the table when I need a reminder.

Now, as the TO of a small tournament, am I going to police this? Not pro-actively. If one player brings it to my attention about another player, I'm going to ask the tattle-tale player if this is really a problem, while looking at him/her over the rim of my glasses with a glower of disapproval. If that player says "yes", then I will shrug my shoulders and tell the player without the right amount of cards that they need to produce the right amount of cards (I'll probably see if I can help that player out with my own collection), or not be allowed to play the list. But ultimately, the complaining player has the right - according to the tournament rules - to have her/his opponent have the right cards or not use the abilities of those cards.

Far less materials than me that is for sure. . .

Quite so, and it's not been a problem.

Would I like to have more Intel Officers? Sure. But I'm just not going to buy another Victory-class to get one. I'm certainly not going to get a Nebulon-B either.

(Though, maybe I'd get the latter and then sacrifice the model on my altar to the Emperor...)

We had a proxies of a ship card in our last tournament. None of us minded and the TO was ok with it (it was the TO's proxy so it may of been biased. . . Silly Imperials). We did not mind because it was a casual tournament. It was understood that it would be fixed when possible and that was ok

Far less materials than me that is for sure. . .

Quite so, and it's not been a problem.

Would I like to have more Intel Officers? Sure. But I'm just not going to buy another Victory-class to get one. I'm certainly not going to get a Nebulon-B either.

(Though, maybe I'd get the latter and then sacrifice the model on my altar to the Emperor...)

Far less materials than me that is for sure. . .

Quite so, and it's not been a problem.

Would I like to have more Intel Officers? Sure. But I'm just not going to buy another Victory-class to get one. I'm certainly not going to get a Nebulon-B either.

(Though, maybe I'd get the latter and then sacrifice the model on my altar to the Emperor...)

Could do like me and practice making your own terrain out of them

I like that idea a lot. It would be a way for me to stomach getting a Nebulon-B for the cards.

Except that I already have a Neb-B from the core set.

Darn.

*Back to drawing board*

I think you are mistaken when you say that the cards are the rules. They certainly have the rules pertaining to those cards printed on them, but they are also components telegraphing clearly to opponents what you have, and in many cases they are turned 90deg. to indicate that they have been exhausted. (Rules & Refernce Guide, pg. 6 under Exhausted).

Absolutely, but lets not suggest that gamers are delicate flowers unable to remember if an ability has been used or not, and that FFG are noble protectors, enabling us to navigate a game that would otherwise be unfathomable. Like me, I'm sure you've played many other games that used "exhaustible" resources or included alternate states and modes of attack and like me, I'm sure you were able to navigate those games without mandatory cards for reminders.

Having multiple copies of an upgrade card, because you've included multiple copies of that upgrade is redundant. I know how Expanded Hangar Bays work, I've got the card right here, why do I need another copy of it just because I want to put it on another ship? How does that help me or help my opponent? Is the visual reminder so important that it should be mandatory to include multiple copies of the same card?

Because in a perfect world both players would remember exactly what each card does, who's it on, and never forget a timing/activation. In that same perfect world, players would never lie, cheat, steal, and do whatever they think they can get away with to secure victory. We aren't in that world

The cards are game pieces. You stack damage cards on/near them, flip the defense tokens, hell, you even get debuffs to values on the ship from crits. I've played a whopping two games of Warmachine, and the cards that represent units very much are part of the game, as they're used to keep track of damage to systems and health.

You wouldn't show up at a Magic tournament with one copy of a card in a sleeve, and 3 more with the same name of that card written down on paper in sleeves and say, "Well I bought one of them, why isn't this good enough?" Even with 40k, you don't get to buy 1 pack of Termies, then say all your Tac squads placed on the bigger bases counts-as. You'd get laughed at.

And what it really comes down to, is that FFG simply has chosen a different model for their game. One in which models, tokens and cards count as game pieces. You want to play in the serious games, you have to pay. If you don't want to, well, there's the door. You can stop at the casual table and stay there if you want.

I remember playing BFG where I'd have half a dozen ships with different stats and abilities, different critical effects, have to remember who had exhausted ordnance and who hadn't, which ships where crippled and which weren't, and remember which orders had been attempted by which ships, and whether or not I had used my re-roll from my fleet admiral or not.

And I managed to do it all without cards. If I have a single copy of any given upgrade card, then it is totally reasonable to use that upgrade on any number of ships because both you and your opponent are capable of remembering which ships that upgrade is applied to, and what it does, and whether it's been used by that ship or not. No one should require that I have multiple copies of the same card in order to use that upgrade multiple times. There is simply no good reason for that.