But I still think the rule, and the attitude it stems from, stinks. And I will continue to say that every time this topic comes up.

But it's not just an attitude, it's a business case. And undoubtedly a well thought out, thoroughly analyzed one.

Without the business case, and the opportunity to satisfy the bean counters, then we wouldn't have gotten to play this Star Wars game that we all love - those licenses don't come cheap!

I agree, but lets not pretend that FFGs success is purely due to their decision to require excess redundant upgrade cards in tournaments. They produce a great game with great miniatures, great rules and using some of the most loved, recognisable and long lived IP in the world. While it's only speculation to guess that they will continue to thrive just fine if they didn't require those extra cards, it's speculating just as much to imply they might lose the licence or the game might founder if such a change was made.

I continue to find this flurry of anger and indignation highly amusing.

Since Chucknuckle has decided not to go to any FFG events anyway, the point really is moot. I'm not sure why anyone's feathers are ruffled, but it's quite entertaining that they are.

With folks like you all, who needs trolls?

Cheap hobbyists are always going to find a way to cut corners.

Taking in the responses to my post. Perhaps I was wrong. I have plenty of cards to go around anyways. I'm trying to cut down on clutter.

I like this game because I'm a collector. I bought 3 core sets and 3 of each ship, why? Because I like having them.

When it comes to list building I like the challenge of working with what I have.

When people proxy, they lower the value of the product I purchase. You ruin my hobby. I don't have time for those people.

But I still think the rule, and the attitude it stems from, stinks. And I will continue to say that every time this topic comes up.

But it's not just an attitude, it's a business case. And undoubtedly a well thought out, thoroughly analyzed one.

Without the business case, and the opportunity to satisfy the bean counters, then we wouldn't have gotten to play this Star Wars game that we all love - those licenses don't come cheap!

I agree, but lets not pretend that FFGs success is purely due to their decision to require excess redundant upgrade cards in tournaments. They produce a great game with great miniatures, great rules and using some of the most loved, recognisable and long lived IP in the world. While it's only speculation to guess that they will continue to thrive just fine if they didn't require those extra cards, it's speculating just as much to imply they might lose the licence or the game might founder if such a change was made.

No one suggested what you're implying. What I did suggest or imply, however, is that FFG inserted that rule as part of an overall business or monetization plan, which presumably (yes I'm speculating here) weighed the potential income generated vs the chance of turning people off the game due to cost. We don't know for sure - we don't have the numbers. Only they do.

But since they make the game and presumably would like to see it succeed as much as we would, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

When people proxy, they lower the value of the product I purchase. You ruin my hobby.

Fly Casual guys.

I can't speak for everyone, but it's not the constraints that I care about. I have precisely zero intention of EVER attending an official FFG event. I just think the attitude, that you need multiple redundant copies of your upgrade cards (and not just visual reminders, but actual official copies) stinks.

It has absolutely no impact on me whatsoever. I will play with 'proxy' cards (by using the same card more than once where appropriate) and if my opponent isn't cool with that, then they're very likely not the kind of person I want to spend an hour playing toy space-ships with in the first place, so it's no skin of my nose.

But I still think the rule, and the attitude it stems from, stinks. And I will continue to say that every time this topic comes up.

Like Mikael, my Vader avatar buddy, said : the debate is moot since you don't plan to attend tournament. In casual games, proxying is usually accepted.

But this thread is about the tournament scene.

Chuckle, one thing you don't get is that yes, Cards =/= Models. But Cards DO = Gamepieces. Every box they sell that's related to Armada is full of gamepieces. Models, tokens, and cards. The cards are an integral part of the game state. Look at Intel Officer. You have to tap it to use it. That's a gamepiece, not a rules reference. I don't see you pitching a fit because MTG makes players buy a ton of common lands via their card packs. Every single game FFG releases involves cards that are integral to gameplay. Check out some of the board games, the LCG's, X-wing for pete's sake. What makes you think we won't get effects later on that might disable equipped cards?

And I STILL don't understand your argument that, he should just have it on a piece of paper and that should be good for all players. GW requires you to have every piece of wargear represented on the model. Did you buy grenades? He better have them glued on his belt somewhere. Power Sword? Needs to be attached, whether in his hand or in a scabbard. Same here. A ship with equipped upgrades needs them represented by placing the legal actual upgrade card next to the ship card.

Does FFG do it to ensure that you have to buy more product. Uh, yeah. That's literally why they exist, to get you to buy their stuff so they can make money. Do you even understand how economies work? Capitalism? Because you sure don't sound like it.

There's a huge difference though between what FFG is doing, and the crap GW pulls, and I doubt anyone on this board will be able to explain it to you, since you're hellbent on this FFG hate train.

Also, this is the weekend. Nobody moderates the forums on the weekend unless its Worlds or Big Announcement time. I could make a burner account and spam post 800 threads containing German Snuff porn and they wouldn't catch it until Monday.

Chuckle, one thing you don't get is that yes, Cards =/= Models. But Cards DO = Gamepieces.

That's your interpretation and you're welcome to it.

But it's flat out wrong.

I can simply say to my opponent "I'm using my intel officer ability now". If he pitches a fit because he wants me to turn a piece of cardboard sideways, then I'm not going to play someone who is that childish. We know what intel officer does, and I have a copy of the card right here to reference. I'm also perfectly capable of remembering if I've used it yet this turn, and so is my opponent. If that's not good enough for him, then that's his loss.

The cards are not analogous to models in 40K. They are analogous to the RULES. Because they are RULES, not game pieces. Like I've said a dozen times, requiring multiple copies of Intel Officer in order to use it is like buying two codexes because I want to use a Lascannon in two different squads.

I can play a whole game of Armada without ever putting a card on the table. In fact, I'm sure I could jury rig a critical effects table and do away with the damage cards as well. The cards make it easier to play and quickly reference the rules, they provide a visual reminder of what status certain upgrades are at, but to insist they are necessary to play the game is simply wrong.

I don't hate FFG. In fact, I like them and their games a lot.

That doesn't mean they don't have some sh*tty ideas and it doesn't mean I should be happy that they're screwing players over. I mean, right under this thread is another with some poor guy scrambling to get another copy of the Flight Controllers upgrade to use it in a tournament. How does this rule help him? He's already got one card, he knows how the rule works, how much the upgrade costs, it's not hard to remember which ships it has been applied to, how does requiring him to have more than one copy do ANYTHING other than put money in FFGs pocket?

I'm all for capitalism. But I'm not a charity and I'm not in the business of just giving money away because other people want it, which is exactly what this rule promotes. Just because FFG is a business doesn't mean I should be happy about them enforcing rules that do nothing to improve the game experience and exist 100% to add to their profit margin.

There's some severe battered gamer syndrome going on here.

The capitalist FFG says 'use our cards or don't play at our hosted tournaments'. You might not like it, but that's what it is. That's the rules. Playing by the rules is the requirement of conformity that we submit to in order to participate in their game at sponsored events. Local games aren't really the issue here, strictly 'regional and above' tournaments.

It is a slippery slope there to take someone's word for them knowing the exact wording of rules and remembers things the same as you. That said, it's also not too hard with Armada, the alternating turn thing limits recollection to the immediate past. But given FFG's penchant for picky little rules wordings, misremembering even one word can make all the difference in the world. One card eliminates that, so lets rule out that argument and that rebuttle. Frankly I'd be totally okay if you had a simple print our or hand written list, but that's because I'm completely used to it, just like I was fully capable of remembering who did what in a 5,000 point BFG game with less than adequate numbers of orders dice. Me, you, the individual as a whole doesn't matter when it comes to the rules.

Following the rules ensures that the game is being played with consistency at the tabletop level. It might not be entirely as altruistic as that from a product standpoint, but that's the effect of many of those kind of rules. FFG have made the card both the rules and a playing piece. Continuing the 40K theme here: having them there is much like having a codex and the marine toting the lascannon. I can personally make do without the rules, because I know them and the model is entirely unambiguous as to what it represents. Likewise, I can make do with another model proxy, because I have the rules and remember what is being used as a lascannon. And I can do without both, a proxy model with no rules, because I can remember both. But how many other people would be okay with that in a tournament setting? Some people will be okay with one and not the other, some will be fine with neither, and some will require both. None of them are wrong. FFG found a way to combine both aspects in one object. So it all comes down to expectations, perception, and personal opinion.

That said, I'm fine with people stepping outside of the rules when it's a friendly game, a campaign, even a casual tournament. I don't play tournaments, I don't like them much, but I am interested in events. To call it 'cheating' because they aren't following the rules isn't exactly accurate either because for it to be cheating I'd have to be doing it for an advantage by definition. Now, it is arguable that the advantage is that I don't have to comply with the requirement that I spend what I may or may not be willing to in order to purchase every card. Thus it's a nebulous monetary advantage, but an arguable one. Personally, I kinda like 'making do'. Without going into the usual wargaming argument, lets just say there's something-something-something about it being like tactics over strategy.

But where did all the hostility in these threads come from? I swear it just sort of cropped up around the time of the 'weird setup' thread and has hung around like a fog bank ever since.

Chuckle, one thing you don't get is that yes, Cards =/= Models. But Cards DO = Gamepieces.

That's your interpretation and you're welcome to it.

But it's flat out wrong.

I can simply say to my opponent "I'm using my intel officer ability now". If he pitches a fit because he wants me to turn a piece of cardboard sideways, then I'm not going to play someone who is that childish. We know what intel officer does, and I have a copy of the card right here to reference. I'm also perfectly capable of remembering if I've used it yet this turn, and so is my opponent. If that's not good enough for him, then that's his loss.

The cards are not analogous to models in 40K. They are analogous to the RULES. Because they are RULES, not game pieces. Like I've said a dozen times, requiring multiple copies of Intel Officer in order to use it is like buying two codexes because I want to use a Lascannon in two different squads.

I can play a whole game of Armada without ever putting a card on the table. In fact, I'm sure I could jury rig a critical effects table and do away with the damage cards as well. The cards make it easier to play and quickly reference the rules, they provide a visual reminder of what status certain upgrades are at, but to insist they are necessary to play the game is simply wrong.

I don't hate FFG. In fact, I like them and their games a lot.

That doesn't mean they don't have some sh*tty ideas and it doesn't mean I should be happy that they're screwing players over. I mean, right under this thread is another with some poor guy scrambling to get another copy of the Flight Controllers upgrade to use it in a tournament. How does this rule help him? He's already got one card, he knows how the rule works, how much the upgrade costs, it's not hard to remember which ships it has been applied to, how does requiring him to have more than one copy do ANYTHING other than put money in FFGs pocket?

I'm all for capitalism. But I'm not a charity and I'm not in the business of just giving money away because other people want it, which is exactly what this rule promotes. Just because FFG is a business doesn't mean I should be happy about them enforcing rules that do nothing to improve the game experience and exist 100% to add to their profit margin.

There's some severe battered gamer syndrome going on here.

What? That's not how Intel Officer works. You don't get to declare once a turn, "Im using this ability". Once a turn you can exhaust the card, turning it 90 degrees clockwise to use it. In the status phase you rotate it back 90 degrees CCW. If you don't use the ability in this manner, YOU DIDN'T USE THE ABILITY AT ALL. You absolutely MUST exhaust the card in order to use it, as that's what the rule says in order to use it. Anything less is not following the rules, and thus illegal.

You are so wrapped into yourself that your creating your own rules to justify your viewpoint. You can't even divorce the fact that of course the cards aren't models, and in fact the thing you need to have on the game table the least is the actual model. All you need is the ship base from a game play perspective. Arguing that you don't need the cards is the same as saying you don't need any of the tokens either. "I know when I've used my defense tokens, and what ships have what command tokens." Who cares if you have it memorized? Your opponent shouldn't need to bring the game to a screeching halt everytime he wants to check what your ships have equipped and what their status is. Oh wait, he doesn't have to because ALL OF THAT IS LAID OUT ON THE TABLE. I shouldn't even need to go into the cheating aspect of why you shouldn't keep it all in your head.

Oh, and Vykes, you can blame me. I came back to the forums like a day after Lyraeus posted that overlapping bit, and everything's gone to pot since. Which is par for the course for me really. Sorry!

What? That's not how Intel Officer works. You don't get to declare once a turn, "Im using this ability". Once a turn you can exhaust the card, turning it 90 degrees clockwise to use it. In the status phase you rotate it back 90 degrees CCW. If you don't use the ability in this manner, YOU DIDN'T USE THE ABILITY AT ALL. You absolutely MUST exhaust the card in order to use it, as that's what the rule says in order to use it. Anything less is not following the rules, and thus illegal

If he pitches a fit because he wants me to turn a piece of cardboard sideways, then I'm not going to play someone who is that childish.

I don't think we'd get along.

Oh, and Vykes, you can blame me. I came back to the forums like a day after Lyraeus posted that overlapping bit, and everything's gone to pot since. Which is par for the course for me really. Sorry!

I don't think it's you at all mate, there's just sort of... something. Maybe it was before then and I was oblivious, that's just more or less when I remember things starting to bubble to the surface. It's not this thread and I don't even think it was 'that one', and it's not any one person either. I'm still sort of trying to figure out when it all seemed to explode.

Sure, I was aghast back then and I'm still sort of coming to terms with it if that's the new norm. I'll be right disappointed if it is. It's still festering and a little on the toxic side but not as repugnant as a few other forums that I've seen and lurked at. That, or I've gotten less naive after the Painting and Conversion sub forum collapse. Maybe that was it.

I'm not really into 'blame' because that doesn't exactly help. I'd just like to get to the root and remedy it or at least medicate it so things get a little less hostile and a little more communal. We're gamers, playing with little plastic ships (or proxies of little plastic ships). We're a small enough community without turning on each other Lord of the Flies style. And I'll be damned if I'm stuck being Piggy when the boar heads start getting paraded out. I'm pretty sure that's not what people have in mind when they say 'fly casual'.

What? That's not how Intel Officer works. You don't get to declare once a turn, "Im using this ability". Once a turn you can exhaust the card, turning it 90 degrees clockwise to use it. In the status phase you rotate it back 90 degrees CCW. If you don't use the ability in this manner, YOU DIDN'T USE THE ABILITY AT ALL. You absolutely MUST exhaust the card in order to use it, as that's what the rule says in order to use it. Anything less is not following the rules, and thus illegal

If he pitches a fit because he wants me to turn a piece of cardboard sideways, then I'm not going to play someone who is that childish.

I don't think we'd get along.

Oh I KNOW we wouldn't get along. Like the man said earlier in the thread, if you can't stand the rules of the game, the door is over there.

P.S. You're the one being childish.

Bye, Felicia.

I can't speak for everyone, but it's not the constraints that I care about. I have precisely zero intention of EVER attending an official FFG event. I just think the attitude, that you need multiple redundant copies of your upgrade cards (and not just visual reminders, but actual official copies) stinks.

It has absolutely no impact on me whatsoever. I will play with 'proxy' cards (by using the same card more than once where appropriate) and if my opponent isn't cool with that, then they're very likely not the kind of person I want to spend an hour playing toy space-ships with in the first place, so it's no skin of my nose.

But I still think the rule, and the attitude it stems from, stinks. And I will continue to say that every time this topic comes up.

Just want to add that I am in complete agreement with this post. Also, I'm a little bit disappointed in the attitude some posters here display in terms of being respectful to people with a different opinion. Is a mental disorder required to play miniature wargames these days?

I can't speak for everyone, but it's not the constraints that I care about. I have precisely zero intention of EVER attending an official FFG event. I just think the attitude, that you need multiple redundant copies of your upgrade cards (and not just visual reminders, but actual official copies) stinks.

It has absolutely no impact on me whatsoever. I will play with 'proxy' cards (by using the same card more than once where appropriate) and if my opponent isn't cool with that, then they're very likely not the kind of person I want to spend an hour playing toy space-ships with in the first place, so it's no skin of my nose.

But I still think the rule, and the attitude it stems from, stinks. And I will continue to say that every time this topic comes up.

Just want to add that I am in complete agreement with this post. Also, I'm a little bit disappointed in the attitude some posters here display in terms of being respectful to people with a different opinion. Is a mental disorder required to play miniature wargames these days?

And how is inferring people who play by the rules have Mental disorders respectful?

I can't speak for everyone, but it's not the constraints that I care about. I have precisely zero intention of EVER attending an official FFG event. I just think the attitude, that you need multiple redundant copies of your upgrade cards (and not just visual reminders, but actual official copies) stinks.

It has absolutely no impact on me whatsoever. I will play with 'proxy' cards (by using the same card more than once where appropriate) and if my opponent isn't cool with that, then they're very likely not the kind of person I want to spend an hour playing toy space-ships with in the first place, so it's no skin of my nose.

But I still think the rule, and the attitude it stems from, stinks. And I will continue to say that every time this topic comes up.

Just want to add that I am in complete agreement with this post. Also, I'm a little bit disappointed in the attitude some posters here display in terms of being respectful to people with a different opinion. Is a mental disorder required to play miniature wargames these days?

And how is inferring people who play by the rules have Mental disorders respectful?

Personally I prefer to think of them as a little up tight rather than suffering from a mental condition, but you did ask how it could be considered respectful.

Actually as a person with autism and specifically AS, I find it all wrong and disrespectful. The difference in the "level" of being disrespectful does not matter

As a person with dyslexia, with a son who is autistic, I am reminded constantly that we all have our own little hang-ups and quirks, that bring order and peace to our own personal universe, and that they are confusing, irritating or comical to those who have other issues. Remembering this when posting, reading and responding is better for the blood pressure & the community.

I also suffer from an overactive sense of humor, so assume I am smiling and that you are supposed to as well.

I agree that the deviation into mental disorder or mental deficiency* doesn't really get us any further. Hating on one another because of the upgrade cards is also quite futile, but the hate is much less hateful. I guess my Dark Side prefers the more wholesome hate, rather than the really hurtful hate that this turn of the discussion creates.

Anyway, it's all been a moot point for a while now.

*how is being mentally deficient any more someone's fault than having mentally disorder?

Can someone close this thread please ? It's gone way off topic, and discussing mental disorder might be good on Psychology Magazine forums, but surely brings absolutely nothing to Star Wars Armada.

Well it's Monday. Ted the Unpaid Intern might finally get around to nuking this clusterf@#k.

I feel like I'm wasting my time jumping in this late. In any case, here are my 2 cents.

If you are going to play with a proxy, print it out and play it like a card on the table. It is only fair for your opponent to be able to see all upgrades on ships in a consistent fashion. I have printed some, and they work seamlessly. Also respect your opponent and don't be annoyed if they don't like proxies, expecially for a tournament. It is in the rules after all. If both players and the organizer are ok with it, use the proxy.

Be prepared with an alternate fleet list in case somebody objects. The fact is, an exact set of upgrades won't make or break your game. If you play well, you can adapt to a slight change in your load out.

You're not forced to buy more models, just change out your fleet list to match what you do own.

Awwwww yeahhhhhh ffgjosh is reading this thread, Inb4lock.

"No, I just have one. Because the card serves purely to tell me what the rules for a TIE fighter are. Why can't that principle be applied to ALL upgrade cards?"

I think that is what I said and it is the way we play around here,(no point of having more then one copy of each card in use on the table taking up space) At my up coming Con game with preset forces I plan to photo copy the ships and their upgrades cards on one sheet of card stock for each player to keep things neat and in place on the table

Than again I will never play in a tournament