What's wrong with making the best of what you've got?

As far as I'm concerned, if I've got one copy of a particular upgrade, then I have infinite copies of that upgrade.

So I have no problems making the best out of what I've got.

They want all your money because they are a greedy company like every other. Nevermind that all the cards increases the setup time by ridiculous amounts when you should be fine with a printed piece of paper showing your entire force and what upgrades are on what ship.

Inb4 itdoesn'ttakelongiamsuperfastatstartinggamesIdon'tdigthroughallmycards stfu idgaf

Also, Warhammer allows proxies as long as the proxy is created from 75% of gamesworkshop products.

Using a cool looking space marine with a chain sword to represent a character in a book they don't make a model for. Taking a Regular Thunderwolf model and using him as your Space Marine Lord on Thunderwolf mount. Creating an Ogre army leader from some regular ogres in the army set with some greenstuff and bits. Can save you 50 bucks and looks unique.

They want all your money because they are a greedy company like every other. Nevermind that all the cards increases the setup time by ridiculous amounts when you should be fine with a printed piece of paper showing your entire force and what upgrades are on what ship.

Inb4 itdoesn'ttakelongiamsuperfastatstartinggamesIdon'tdigthroughallmycards stfu idgaf

Also, Warhammer allows proxies as long as the proxy is created from 75% of gamesworkshop products.

Using a cool looking space marine with a chain sword to represent a character in a book they don't make a model for. Taking a Regular Thunderwolf model and using him as your Space Marine Lord on Thunderwolf mount. Creating an Ogre army leader from some regular ogres in the army set with some greenstuff and bits. Can save you 50 bucks and looks unique.

That term is what Warhammer high level tournaments use. Can you have a Commander that has a body, not from a Commander sprue? Sure. As long as it resembles what you are using. You can't take a Termagaunt and call it a Guardsmen though. That is casual play.

I played BFG as well, played games that include dozens of ships per side. It is fun but not everyone has that experience and to state that because you can do something means that everyone should is asinine. Not everyone has that experience.

Many people are like Mikael, they need a visual representation of what's going on and what has what in order to keep things straight.

As far as I am concerned. You need every card that you have on your list. If that is 3 Advanced Projectors then you better have it. That is how the Upgrade Cards work and the Gather Components part of setup work. If it is a casual game I will lend you my copy if I have extras.

Oh and I have 5 Nebulon-B's. Three of them from expansion packs just for their upgrades so I am not above buying extras if I wanted.

As far as I'm concerned, if I've got one copy of a particular upgrade, then I have infinite copies of that upgrade.

If the idea is to get FFG to change their policy on card proxies, this is really isn't the argument you were looking for is it?

I'll posit a better idea., FFG print decks the the SW:RPG system and sell then for about $8 for packs of 20. So print up a new card pack each month, of a non-unique card with alternate art. Sell those packs to stores for $10-15 and use them as give away gifts for a store based league or game night. The store can charge up to $10 for entry.

During the first month players could vote for the next months card. Thus for as long as there is interest the process FFG makes some money as players who otherwise wouldn't be buying any more things may still show up for games and warrent the store buying those decks of cards. The stores get people playing a game and teaching it, and the players get some of the cards that they otherwise wouldn't have bothered to buy in the traditional manner. Also, they get some games in.

I doubt FFG will change the way things happen "because you don't like it" but if there is an alternative that keeps everyone happy enough perhaps you'll have a chance.

I suggested something similar to this for X-wing Amanal, and i was promptly shouted down by the masses. There's simply no pleasing some people. They will simply whine until the game fits "their" vision of what it should be.

I suggested something similar to this for X-wing Amanal, and i was promptly shouted down by the masses. There's simply no pleasing some people. They will simply whine until the game fits "their" vision of what it should be.

I haven't threatened anyone with anything.

Yes you have, and people tend to take threats like that seriously. As in if you were reported you could get banned from the board seriously.Bottom line is the rules are the rules. If you don't like them don't play in official events. You bring a proxie into a tournament and you may very well be asked to either not use it, or be disqualified. If you smack someone, not only would that get you removed, it would I hope get you arrested.If I'm playing a friendly game I wouldn't care about proxies. If I'm at a Store Championship or other official event, then yes I would, I'd call you on it and have the TO deal with you accordingly.I quite frankly don't care in the least what you think of FFG's policies, the rules are the rules and if you won't abide by them, then you are a cheater pure and simple, and I will treat you accordingly.Are the rules there to help FFG's bottom line? Yes that is no doubt part of it. But it also makes the tournament experience better because then you know everyone is using the official cards and upgrades. So no worries about some sort of homebrew card or fudged stats or anything else of the like.

Even GW, (game Nazis that they have become,) used to put a disclaimer in games allowing players to duplicate cards for personal use, as long as the original was available as proof. The rule is nothing but a revenue generating tactic. Fact of the matter is, there is no differenc, other than the amount of cash they spent, between a player who shows up at any armada game with 4 original upgrade cards, 1 original & 3 copies. In my opinion, calling someone a cheater over this & complaining, is just as silly as calling all J-walkers criminals & reporting every incidence you see to the local police. Personally I would prefer to face off against an opponents best fleet build rather than look for a loophole to avoid it. I am choosing to believe that you are just a stickler for rules, and that everything you wrote was an attempt to live up to a high standerd. However, we are discussing a game about plastic space ships pretending to attack each other in a galaxy far far away, on a discussion forum run by a company that makes games. Lighten up. I find it truly difficult to believe that any treats were made here, credible or otherwise, and that any examples you are recalling are good natured trash talk... a staple of competition since the beginnings of recreational competition.

Yes, no proxies is a rule. It has one purpose, $$$. As a player you have the right to call someone on it. As a player, I have every right to let an opponent slide on this one. Yes, I would hard pressed to find any reason to actually enforce this rule, as I don't have stock in FFG.

It's a silly rule.

In the end we all have to draw the line somewhere. Exactly where, is up for discussion and we will never all agree.

Would you allow someone to play in a tourney with 1 original card and several copies? Sure, no problem. What about someone who has photocopied the cards, so all the text is there but doesn't have an original? Well, maybe ok. What if they have just copied the text by hand, but no picture of the card? Or just a list of upgrade cards, and no card images at all - they just ask to refer to yours?

What if they have a legitimate base, but have proxied models? What if they have a legitimate base, but no model?

In the end, I don't care that much....it's only a game after all. But I can understand that different folks draw the line at different places. I just want to see FFG continue to support the game, and I want to get a fun game in (and not end up playing against empty bases as "proxies" as has happened to me numerous times in 40k).

One reluctance I have about allowing proxied cards is that I think it makes "spam" lists easier to construct....and I'd rather face an opponent who used different cards creatively than someone who saw a netlist and threw it on the table.

I have proxied some cards and ship card board to test things but I would not use them in any tournament setting. I feel that any official tournament should follow the tournament rules. If you are going to use FFG's prize support (kits) as rewards you should do it by the rules they list. Anything short of that feels wrong. Not only are you "cheating" your opponents, you are "cheating" the company who spent the time, effort, money, and such to design, create, and provide you with such a great game.

How can I say this? I make chain maille, yes I am talking about ye ole armor, jewelry, and the like. That experience, the time, the effort, etc makes me appreciate the same work put into other things such as this game.

I think you've been crying over milk that has yet to be spilled.

Absolutely, I just wondered on the consensus and so forth..

I quite like the X17, I think it gives the rebels a great punch against the VSDs.

I guess I just don't appreciate the 'collectable' nature of the game. To me, it has no such nature.

To the competition tournament player, perhaps it's just the same as Magic etc..

This game has NO collectible nature at all. Well, maybe except for the official FFG prizes (alt art cards, plastic tokens, etc.). Why? Because you know EXACTLY what you are getting in each pack. A card is only valued depending on 1) their effect on the current meta and 2) how easy it is to acquire them. Oh, the XI7 absolutely rocks? That makes it more expensive or valuable for people who break packs apart and sell stuff individually. If the XI7 came as 2 or 3 copies in one Neb B pack, it won't be as valuable/expensive, even if the meta for them stayed the same.

Compare that to MTG wherein a booster box may cost £80-90 but having a good dose of luck might very well allow people who sell stuff individually make double their money on one booster box.

I remember playing BFG where I'd have half a dozen ships with different stats and abilities, different critical effects, have to remember who had exhausted ordnance and who hadn't, which ships where crippled and which weren't, and remember which orders had been attempted by which ships, and whether or not I had used my re-roll from my fleet admiral or not.

And I managed to do it all without cards. If I have a single copy of any given upgrade card, then it is totally reasonable to use that upgrade on any number of ships because both you and your opponent are capable of remembering which ships that upgrade is applied to, and what it does, and whether it's been used by that ship or not. No one should require that I have multiple copies of the same card in order to use that upgrade multiple times. There is simply no good reason for that.

Good for you that you can remember everything. Not all of us are like you. Heck, I could have the card right in my face and I'll still forget to use it! This has certainly happened a few instances on some command dials as well, once the pressure builds up. Again, just because you can do it doesn't mean everyone else can or should.

If you are going to use FFG's prize support (kits) as rewards you should do it by the rules they list.

Agreed on that one. On casual or league games, or on your own kitchen table, do whatever you want. Heck, photocopy the ship cardboards and use that! Want to try out 6 CR-90 builds but you only have 1 from the box set and 1 from the expansion pack but you have enough small bases? Go right ahead!

But once you go into stricter, official tournaments, then you are at the mercy of the rules they have put down. Is it fair? Yes, because they have put these rules out in the open. Is it a money-grabbing scheme? It sure is. But compared to others, well, FFG isn't so bad. Is it an issue to YOU? Well, there's the door and I hope you get good prices on your stuff once you list them on eBay.

At the end of the day. I see these as reference cards. You pay the points your required and call it a day. Why do you need to attacha copy of each card to the ship?

I only apply this to cards that are used as a reference.

Now what I have a problem with is people who are simply being cheap. Using proxy models, downloading rulebooks or simply choosing to not own said game piece.

It's an issue I have in my shop a lot. It's theft from the company and food off my table.

If you're gonna botch and whine that you don't want to buy a new codex then shut up and don't buy it.

At the end of the day. I see these as reference cards. You pay the points your required and call it a day. Why do you need to attacha copy of each card to the ship?

I only apply this to cards that are used as a reference.

Now what I have a problem with is people who are simply being cheap. Using proxy models, downloading rulebooks or simply choosing to not own said game piece.

It's an issue I have in my shop a lot. It's theft from the company and food off my table.

If you're gonna botch and whine that you don't want to buy a new codex then shut up and don't buy it.

Let's take engine enables techs. Is that a refrence card? What about Intel Officer? What about Advanced Projectors which changes a rule in the game? Gunnery Team?

Two of those previously mentioned cards require bookkeeping of some sort (exhausting said card) to signify they have been used. That seems more than a refrence to me.

Is it so bad to require the card you want to use so that when your opponent makes a decision they don't have to worry about remembering your entire list and what has what upgrade, or is it that you are ok with them forgetting and making a mistake that you can capitalize on?

That term is what Warhammer high level tournaments use. Can you have a Commander that has a body, not from a Commander sprue? Sure. As long as it resembles what you are using. You can't take a Termagaunt and call it a Guardsmen though. That is casual play.

Cards =/= models.

Again, the equivalent argument is saying that everytime you want to use an upgrade, you need to buy a new codex.

Want to use grenades? New codex. Want to use those same grenades on a second unit? New codex.

But why? What purpose does that serve? It's totally redundant and serves only to funnel more of your cash into FFGs pocket, without improving the game experience.

"Oh but Chuck, those are just the rules!"

Yes, I know. But just because it IS a rule doesn't make it a GOOD rule, and doesn't mean we shouldn't complain about it if we don't like it.

I played BFG as well, played games that include dozens of ships per side. It is fun but not everyone has that experience and to state that because you can do something means that everyone should is asinine. Not everyone has that experience.

Surely you're not suggesting that some players are so incompetent that we need to protect them by bringing multiple copies of upgrade cards, so the poor little dears don't get confused?

As far as I am concerned. You need every card that you have on your list. If that is 3 Advanced Projectors then you better have it. That is how the Upgrade Cards work and the Gather Components part of setup work.

And as far as I am concerned, you can stuff it up your jumper. No offence intended.

At the end of the day. I see these as reference cards. You pay the points your required and call it a day. Why do you need to attacha copy of each card to the ship?

I only apply this to cards that are used as a reference.

They are not refrence cards though.

...

Is it so bad to require the card you want to use so that when your opponent makes a decision they don't have to worry about remembering your entire list and what has what upgrade, or is it that you are ok with them forgetting and making a mistake that you can capitalize on?

Slightly different argument - I'll ensure I have every single card. Some will be scanned, printed onto card and put in a sleeve, in fact they'll be so good you can only tell the difference with a close look..

But.. that's not good enough, because they have to be official, even if identical in every other way.

I'm absolutely sure nobody would have a problem providing a copy of a card in colour that fits the bill in every way.. except for FFG of course.

At the end of the day. I see these as reference cards. You pay the points your required and call it a day. Why do you need to attacha copy of each card to the ship?

I only apply this to cards that are used as a reference.

They are not refrence cards though.

...

Is it so bad to require the card you want to use so that when your opponent makes a decision they don't have to worry about remembering your entire list and what has what upgrade, or is it that you are ok with them forgetting and making a mistake that you can capitalize on?

Slightly different argument - I'll ensure I have every single card. Some will be scanned, printed onto card and put in a sleeve, in fact they'll be so good you can only tell the difference with a close look..

But.. that's not good enough, because they have to be official, even if identical in every other way.

I'm absolutely sure nobody would have a problem providing a copy of a card in colour that fits the bill in every way.. except for FFG of course.

So you are fine with people cheating a company out of the money it has earned by providing you a product you wish to an. You are so cheap that you are willing to use glossy printer paper to create your own copies. Hmmm last I checked if used in an official capacity (such as a FFG sponsored tournament, oh let's say massing of sullust) the TO can kick you from said tournament for not only breaking the rules and cheating fellow players but also gross misconduct. Well, at least that is how I would go about it.

Go ahead and do so casually though. No one says you can't do so at home or with your mates.

Chuckle, you are a straight up fool. Oh and I mean the offense. You don't like an answer so you retaliate. Sorry if the rules of the game don't fit your vision of the world.

As for incompetent players, there are such, but some people play this game because they don't have to remember all this information. That is a draw. So if you want to play like that, go back to BFG, I am sure you will get support from GW. . . Never.

Awwwwww I am sorry to hear that you can't stomach spending such little money for another ship, or heck going on eBay to get the card you wanted. I am so sorry that it is such an inconvenience for you because you can't seem to appreciate the work a company does for your benefit as much as their own. I am sorry that you hate the cheap prices of such a great game that you have to complain about getting a whole new model though could be used, given away, given as a present to get others started in the game, etc.

Oh, and of you don't think this game is cheap. The Imperial Star Destroyer is roughly 8" prepainted model that comes with everything you need to put it on the table and use it the SECOND you buy it. Know what else costs that much? A GW Landraider. . . The Landraider might actually cost more. . . Go figure.

Chuckle, you are a straight up fool. Oh and I mean the offense. You don't like an answer so you retaliate. Sorry if the rules of the game don't fit your vision of the world.

I remember my first day on the internet.

Welcome to my ignore list, kid.

Having multiple copies of an upgrade card, because you've included multiple copies of that upgrade is redundant. I know how Expanded Hangar Bays work, I've got the card right here, why do I need another copy of it just because I want to put it on another ship? How does that help me or help my opponent? Is the visual reminder so important that it should be mandatory to include multiple copies of the same card?

Yes. Yes it is. For me, because I forget everything. I have a preferred tournament list and I forget what it is and have to rebuild it half from scratch before every tournament. I forget to move my ship, and I forget that I gave you initiative because I normally bid 10pts under to guarantee I go first, and I forgot that this time I gave you 1st player to try something new. I forget what upgrades are on my ship, and I forget what round it is.

The upgrade titles and THOUSANDS of tokens that come with literally every FFG game ever made are there in part to help idiots like me remember crap like that. I'm going to forget that you said that these two VSD have expanded hangar bays but you only have one copy of the card. But if you have two copies I can look over and go "oh ya there he has two with him."

It's also to prevent cheating. If you can hand the TO a stack of cards, he can count how many points your fleet is.. If you've only got one copy of expanded hanger bays it's really easy to say "oh my bad it was on that VSD you didn't kill, and the one that died wasn't using it...." and suddenly you cheat me out of 5 points, and points do matter. One more damage card dealt would have killed my ship last match and we would have exactly tied at 115pts worth of kills. That's a 5/5 split and in the tourney I went to a 5/5 split (even though I won) knocked me from second to fourth.

Now maybe you have proxies so you DO have a physical copy of whatever to represent whatever. But this game is played for money. It cost me money to enter, and the grand prize at the Sullust event my FLGS is lucky enough to run is a $50 toy ship, and there will be over $100 in actual prizes with real world value handed out. Winning the tournament means I don't have to fork out $40 bucks (about a day's labour) for that MC80 I want. Requiring that every player have an actual real copy of every component they use protects players, because it prevents easy ways of cheating and simple confusion (I thought that proxy was something totally different?!?!?). It protects TOs because it provides clear guidance on what is and isn't acceptable.

You want to use proxies at a casual game? sure dude NP. Thats cool. You want to use proxies at a tournament? No, and I don't care how bad that hurts your feelings.

Mmm, I love the smell of flame war in the afternoon.

It makes my Dark Side happy.

Man. Please close this thread. Its toxic to the game.

Mmm, I love the smell of flame war in the afternoon.

It makes my Dark Side happy.

You know, I wasn't going to post anything also, but here.

I don't care about what anyone thinks. I don't care if anyone is a cheapskate and is whining about having to buy a ship to get a certain card. I don't care if you're a fanboy defending FFG. I DONT CARE.

I only care about the RULES.

If you play in a tourney, you will have an actual copy of any card used, BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE RULES. period. You don't like it, don't play in tourneys.

You can whine all you want, FFG is not going to change this rule.

Notice I ain't trying to justify this anymore. Don't have to. It's very simple. ITS THE OFFICIAL RULES. and if you don't follow the official rules, wether you like them or not, then you're cheating. It really is that simple.

Feel free to keep complaining about it to FFG, and please let me know how that works for you. In the meantime, I'm going back to playing with my awesome plastic starships.

Out.

At least, we can give credit to FFG for going with the upgrade card system and not the WYSIWYG route for customizing your fleet. That makes it that much less time/money intensive to be able to experiment with different builds compared to converting existing models or buying new ones outright as in W40k, so thanks FFG !

On top of that, the game is so brilliantly designed that there are no cards that are auto-include, and it drives people to experiment with different builds, report on it and overall contribute to the community's understanding of the mechanics.

The complaints largely come from the fact that you don't have enough of some expansion-exclusive cards to use with the Core Set's models. Then why not try ships with different loadouts and work to make them work together to be more than the sum of their parts ?

Sometimes there are constraints that you can either complain about, try to change or try to make the most out of the situation despite them.

I can't speak for everyone, but it's not the constraints that I care about. I have precisely zero intention of EVER attending an official FFG event. I just think the attitude, that you need multiple redundant copies of your upgrade cards (and not just visual reminders, but actual official copies) stinks.

It has absolutely no impact on me whatsoever. I will play with 'proxy' cards (by using the same card more than once where appropriate) and if my opponent isn't cool with that, then they're very likely not the kind of person I want to spend an hour playing toy space-ships with in the first place, so it's no skin of my nose.

But I still think the rule, and the attitude it stems from, stinks. And I will continue to say that every time this topic comes up.

But I still think the rule, and the attitude it stems from, stinks. And I will continue to say that every time this topic comes up.

But it's not just an attitude, it's a business case. And undoubtedly a well thought out, thoroughly analyzed one.

Without the business case, and the opportunity to satisfy the bean counters, then we wouldn't have gotten to play this Star Wars game that we all love - those licenses don't come cheap! And let's face it - you came for the opportunity to command an ISD or Nebulon. What percentage of players do you think came for the game mechanics first, and the fluff second? I'd wager close to.....none.

Without a healthy company eager to invest more $$ into the game, we don't get waves 3, 4, 5, and onwards. Without the potential to make lots of $$, the company will move on to the next opportunity to profit, and leave this game to wither. Look at BFG, Epic, etc.

And without the license, good luck getting as large a community as we have, as quickly as we have. When's the last time you went down to your FLGS for a pickup game/weekly game night of Full Thrust, Colonial Battlefleet, Saganami Island Tactical Simulator, or even Star Fleet Battles?

Perhaps I sound too much like a FFG fanboy. I'm not, really. I just have way too many good games and models on my shelf collecting dust because the player base is small. I'm happy to support a good game that's popular. We all should.