Hi all, it's recently come to my notice that card proxies are not allowed in tournaments.

Whilst I can absolutely agree that FFG models, bases etc should be used and that you should own all the relevant packs with the cards you want to use, it seems without merit to require that all cards are genuine too.

As an example, I buy the Nebulon-B pack and get a card I want to use.

I should have to show proof of ownership (each pack comes with one) or the original card to be allowed to use that card.

No arguments on that.

But, if I want to use that card on all of my ships, I shouldn't have to go and buy several packs of Nebulon-B simply for the cards.

Nor should I have to trade for the cards.

FFG do a great job, but requiring no proxies makes me not want to play in tournaments at all.

I personally will not buy extra packs for cards.

I can understand the need to ensure product is sold and people buy the add on packs, but this is way over the top.

Most of the cards in Armada are informational. One copy is sufficient generally. Proxies would be fine too.

Please FFG, review this policy.

Hmmmm you do realize that it is like this with every game that involves cards right? No proxies are allowed in official games. TCG's, CCS's, war games, etc require this.

Even games like 40k require that you own the model to use it in a tournament setting.

I've specified exactly that, ownership of the model should be a requirement to use the card.

I don't really care about GW's policies as we abandoned their tournament scene and games over a decade ago

I wouldn't presume to dirty FFG's name with the mention of GW in the same sentence.. <end rant>

And no, I can think of many war games where proxies are absolutely okay.

Card games well I guess you would expect to own the card.

There's no reason why proxies shouldn't be allowed in Armada.

What wargame allows proxies at an official tournament? In facts what game allows proxies at a tournament in general?

BHGS Britcon. Saga, Bolt Action, FoG, FoW.

I know proxies are used in that event (I've done so). Maybe it's not official policy but it's not discouraged.

In 40k you need their models (GW policy thats just how it is). In Saga I think you can get away with just about anything. Bolt action ditto.

Flames I've played with all sorts on the table and forgot my rulebook. FoG I didn't even own the rulebook at the time and armies are whatever you have.

Clearly you are more from the 40k GW side of things and that has always been their policy even back when they were a reasonable company who cared about their games.

But at least you do actually need the models, they go on the table it's not a total waste of £

I don't really want to compare to anything else, because it doesn't really compare.

I bristle about paying £13 for a piece of cardboard (the required piece) and a model I will never use.

So your experience is local tournaments then? Any regional's or better with those games?

Why's that relevant? I've been playing games some 20 odd years, been to many, many tournaments; used to run a Warhammer tournament, and it was an officially sanctioned one.

The 'level' or 'category' or whatever you want to call it is largely irrelevant. People pay good money to go to a tournament and don't expect to be screwed around when they get there.

Stuuk, if you are in the UK http://www.bigorbitcards.co.uk/star-wars-armada/armada-upgrade-cards/sell the single cards for quite reasonable prices. FFG won't be reviewing this policy, its a serious part of their business model. If this is a big issue for you then I would rule out playing in tournaments.

Lyraeus, why do you feel a need to have a constantly confrontational tone and speak in a belittling manner to people for having issues with this game? It really does not help this forum be a welcoming place for hobbyists or contribute much in general to the discussion.

HI Dave thanks for the link. It makes their policy marginally less irritating. I do wonder if i just turn up with scanned sheets of the cards (built nicely of course) whether anyone would complain.

Wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone smacked in a tournament.. ;p

Why's that relevant? I've been playing games some 20 odd years, been to many, many tournaments; used to run a Warhammer tournament, and it was an officially sanctioned one.

The 'level' or 'category' or whatever you want to call it is largely irrelevant. People pay good money to go to a tournament and don't expect to be screwed around when they get there.

If I ran a tournament and the people there were fine with the proxies I would be alright with that. It is a home game, we are playing for minor stakes, and no one minds. However, the moment you go to a regional's, you start getting more attention. Play becomes tighter and there no longer is the allowance of friendly fixes. Friendly Fixes are the kinds of things you would. Roll a dice, or flip a coin 8j oder to resolve. Now people call judges for the minor things, they treat it as if it is for the marbles, because in a sense it is.

Someone who wins a regional's gets recognized. Most people know who play this game know who won 1st and 2nd at the US Nationals. Can you do the same for more than 5 tournaments outside your area?

Iron Dave. It is 3am for me and I am not being confrontational. I am just tired, can't go to sleep and and being cold and emotionless, thus it seems confrontational. It does not help that I have Aspergers and this is my standard way of speaking. Emotionless context.

I do see your point Lyraeus to an extent. Of course people call foul if FFG allows them to do so. It's that policy that seems unfair - with a little bit of calculation I bet they could tell you how much $$ that's made them.

Effectively they are taxing their most loyal players who not only travel but also take the time and effort to attend their tournaments. To my mind that's pretty disgusting, and I would not attend such an event out of protest.

If I go to the local tournament here (frankly if I can be bothered) I will take proxies.

I really only want to play a few new people and have a fun day. If I win something, so much the better but I'd be going for the games.

If I have to shove a proxy up someone's a*se that would run the day for everyone. Sad Face.

It seems to me FFGs policy actually encourages calling foul, and generally being an a*sehat

Stuuk, glad I could be of some help. As for proxies in tournaments, very much depends on your venue and T/O as it is purely a matter of complying with the FFG ruls and makes a grand total of no difference to playing the actual game when it comes to upgrades.

Lyraeus, would it shock you to hear that the UK and US tournament scenes are very different things and that experience in one does not equate in experience with the other? We don't have an FFG official presence, we have to rely on Esdevium their half-arsed distributor playing nice to get anything and we lack the strong network of FLGS's and Conventions that make the FFG tournaments scene the monster that it is in the states.

I was thinking that it must be the wee small hours of the morning for a US poster to be up, I hope you manage to get some rest soon enough. As for your Aspergers, I hate to break it you but Cold,Emotionless and "Truthful" doesn't have to come across as harshly as you make it do. I do think that a large portion of the harshness in your posting style come from an empathy deficit that makes it very difficult to see other points of view, and I don't know what to say to help you with this. I can be pretty harsh so I try and avoid posting when tired and pissed off, and try to limit it to posts where I can meaningfully add something to the discussion. Maybe you could try doing the same?

come on lads lets stay on topic please, everyone be civil

I have some really mixed feelings on the matter. But after typing out almost a page of rambling, it comes down to this:

I can see how this can create a 'pay-2-win' style of tournament, where the largest chequebook will have a distinct advantage on the field, and that juuuuust so happens to improve FFG's bottom line. It is also liable to be grotesquely unfair to casual players and extremely disheartening for anyone wanting to just dip their toes in the competitive pool to try out something new. Moreover, it feels really weird when we're only required to have 1 of any Squadron card regardless of the number of squadrons on the field (as logical as it may be, given that they're all identical).

But while I'm used to that kind of cynicism, I actually like the method FFG chose: the card slots create a neat and tidy standard with unambiguous bookeeping. Some cards are 'tapped' and activated, so the act makes it clear compared to “oh, I didn't activate my Intel Officer this turn; by the way, no Brace. That nebulous marker? That was tooootally for something else. Just trust me.” And a lot of this directly relates to FFG's choise of an expanding limited card set that didn't include doubles of every possible upgrade in every pack (saving shipping, and the need to redo print runs every time a new wave comes out.). If this was the usual big-book 'upgrade+cost per ship' approach, we'd run into the same stuff as a lot of other wargames. It's just a different format, one with advantages and disadvantages.

Long story short: I love the method and mechanics, but I do admittedly resent what it might become (like X-wing). There are nice ways to do counters and proxies for that (I make a ton of 2 sided tokens for stuff, it works fine, so I know it can be done well), but this official policy keeps it consistently as unambiguous as possible. Yes I'm fence sitting on the issue of support, but I think of it as a perch and I'm just free as a bird (or bird brained, your choice. It don't affect me none, nope).

FFG considers the content that comes along with the models as much of a game piece as the models themselves. It is something built into the distribution and pricing models of both X-wing and Armada. As such it is just entirely unlikely that they will revisit that policy as you want them to.

As to that creating a "Pay 2 Win" situation, well that really doesn't fit. As with any card or miniatures game any player that can afford to own every possible option available to them is going to have a theoretical advantage as they can build any deck or army possible. But in reality that is not really an advantage you can leverage, because 90% of those options are just not advantageous to utilize.

Local tournaments may not enforce the rule, as with any rule. But I would expect anything SC level and above to enforce the rule. So I would suggest borrowing in cornercase situations where you absolutely need the upgrade but will not purchase the product it comes with. Or look to various singles sites.

I, personally, have zero issue with thier distribution of upgrade cards. I feel it adds value to my purchases as even if I am not using the model all the time, I may be utilizing an upgrade that came with it. This is provided of course that FFG does repackage in demand upgrades, as they have shown that they will do. I also realize that without this distribution structure pushing sales in some regards certain models may not get produced, and overall every model would likely cost more as less would be sold.

@Stuuk, asking to have FFG review their policy is one thing. However, until they do indeed change their policy it would be worth noting that to show up to a tournament with proxies is cheating and in at least two of your posts you have threatened physical violence on someone who complains about you in effect cheating:

"If I have to shove a proxy up someone's a*se that would ruin (sic) the day for everyone. Sad Face."

"Wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone smacked in a tournament."

Further if you do put someone in the position where they do complain, this one is on you, don't go calling them names and threatening them.

I would love to see two copies of some of the "Generic Upgrades" in each pack, that would still promote the purchase of expansions, but it would be a bit more generous.

Well then, my two Imperial credits worth.

Requiring an actual card be present is simply another way to enforce balance. Some of the cards can only be found in a particular expansion, therefore limiting their availability. This way, you are forced to be selective as to what you bring to the table.

Furthermore the simple point is that it's the RULE. That overrides everything. So at a casual game, heck I don't care if you proxy a card or ship, were out to have fun and experiment.

At a tourney? Sorry bud, I payed my hard earned money to participate in that. I will follow the rules exactly as written, official errata, and the TO's rulings, and I expect my opponents to do exactly the same, wether they like it or not. As such, I expect them to have an actual copy of any cards they are going to be using. If they don't have it, I guess they can't use it. AS PER OFFICIAL RULES. End of story. Oh, and you can be sure I'll do my damnedest to obliterate my opponents as fast and efficiently as possible. I don't go to tourneys to lose. But I'll be happy to give you pointers and discuss tactics afterwards, and will definitely shake your hand and congratulate you, should you defeat me. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will.

As for Lyraeus my friend...I know you have Aspergers. I also can tell you're highly intelligent. Do like Dexter then, and use those brains to figure out how to stay polite and not sound like an emotionless uncaring robot. I know you can. Trust me it's worth the effort. As we said in the Army, false motivation is better than no motivation at all.

Admiral Wolf out.

Amanal, lighten up. I haven't threatened anyone with anything.

The top post is what I asked for, the rest is just noise for the most part.

Lupine, I agree. If you provide a competitive player with a way to call foul, they probably will (though personally I would find doing so distasteful and would allow it, but that's just me).

Hence why the whole thing is an awful money grub.

I disagree that it has anything at all to do with balance though, you've just made that up. I very much doubt that their production process and pack content has anything at all to do with game balance.

Lupine, I agree. If you provide a competitive player with a way to call foul, they probably will. Hence why the whole thing is an awful money grub.

I am a competetive player and proxies wouldn't bother me at all. I don't call people on much of anything- you can be competetive AND realize this is a game of toy spaceships! It isn't a binary "competetive player" or "laid back guy" situation. They are not at odds with each other.

That being said, miniature games in general have low margins. FFG have a business model that works, and though it can be a bit annoying- it's also keeping them in the black.

Basically, I'm "even stevening" it here and saying- if the policy changed it wouldn't bother me in the least. If it doesn't change, and a tournament allows proxies, fine by me. Otherwise, I'll play by the rules

I haven't threatened anyone with anything.

Yes you have, and people tend to take threats like that seriously. As in if you were reported you could get banned from the board seriously.

Bottom line is the rules are the rules. If you don't like them don't play in official events. You bring a proxie into a tournament and you may very well be asked to either not use it, or be disqualified. If you smack someone, not only would that get you removed, it would I hope get you arrested.

If I'm playing a friendly game I wouldn't care about proxies. If I'm at a Store Championship or other official event, then yes I would, I'd call you on it and have the TO deal with you accordingly.

I quite frankly don't care in the least what you think of FFG's policies, the rules are the rules and if you won't abide by them, then you are a cheater pure and simple, and I will treat you accordingly.

Are the rules there to help FFG's bottom line? Yes that is no doubt part of it. But it also makes the tournament experience better because then you know everyone is using the official cards and upgrades. So no worries about some sort of homebrew card or fudged stats or anything else of the like.

"even stevening"

I see what you did there...

Basically, I'm "even stevening" it here and saying- if the policy changed it wouldn't bother me in the least. If it doesn't change, and a tournament allows proxies, fine by me. Otherwise, I'll play by the rules

I disagree that it has anything at all to do with balance though, you've just made that up. I very much doubt that their production process and pack content has anything at all to do with game balance.

Made it up? Seriously?

First, no I don't know what FFGs official stance is on this aside from what the rules say. So it can be said that it is my OPINION that this is partly a balancing tool. Or maybe it's just a money grab, as you say. Which by the way, I think you made that up. See how that works? This kind of comment is why Amanal says you're being aggressive on here.

In the end it matters not one bit. The only thing that matters is the rules as written, and any errata made to the rules trough official channels.

So, you want to play in tourneys, and the TO is enforcing the standard, as he/she should be? Then you're gonna need the actual card , wether you like it or not. You playing casual at home with friends who don't care? Proxy all you want.

You want FFG to change their official stance on proxies, which btw has been that way since they started, on EVERY SINGLE GAME they produce that uses cards? Dream on, not going to happen, no matter how much you or anyone gripes about it.

Done with this conversation....not worth any more effort.

Out.

Why..is this

...even....a thread!!!!

It just devolved into nothing important.

Oh dear stuuk, you seem to have upset the Colonials . Can really feel the difference in cultural communication styles depending on who is awake in what timezone on an international board like this, I guess I'm just a bit more used to being cautious in how I speak online.

The card proxying in tournament rules really does have naff all to do with game balance, and it really is "just a moneygrab", but guess what FFG has to make money to. Making pre-painted miniatures, shipping them all round the world,dealing with having a huge movie license, actually spending time designing a game and thoroughly playtesting it all costs money. Wargaming is not a huge market so much of those costs end up with us as end consumers. I'm fine with all this, its a rational company making rational decisions about how to make money, stay in business long term and take pride in what they produce. Compared to the bonkers straight up amateur hour bull of just about every company in British war gaming that I can think of FFG are hyper-competent saints.