If the point count is raised, yes. Because 100 simply isn't enough to utilize a lot of ships we want to use.
Is a 3 Tie-Defender Builder Viable?
I run three Defenders often, with much success. Three Onyxs with TIE mkii is the way to go.
Put in two flechette cannons and an ion and your golden, you're moving first and shooting last anyway so sod initiative.
No, I think that's a terrible idea. Firstly that's over 100 points. And secondly I want to kill my targets, not inconvenience them. Making your Defenders more expensive to do less damage is why people have trouble with them.
Well is it?
It is. A player running three of them placed high in our recent big tournament, and that was for funsies. This was against elite PWT lists.
The lists that i've tried...
#1
Delta X 2
Delta + HLC + Hull
- Need to delay the HLC and later use it as a decoy while the naked delta's do the work. - It won about as often as it lost. not amazing.
#2
Delta + Ion X3
- Works really well against B-wings, but more often than not, you don't need 3 ion cannons - There's potential in bringing a single ion.
#3
Col Vessery + Engine + VI
Delta X2
- Maybe the best of the triple defender lists I've tried, Col has some moves with the engine, and gets to TL for free with the help of the Deltas -> provided it's not turn 1. The col also draws fire from the other two deltas - get up close and personal with the generics.
#4
Delta + Stealth X3
Hull might be better off here, but generally this meant spending focus on defense, and losing offense. It was ok, but firing last also hurt it.
#5
Not really triple defender, but...
Delta X 2
Echo + PTL + Engine + Mara Jade.
Pardon the wierd loadout - but this Echo only decloaks when she's not being shot at - and she stresses out enemy ships, while the defenders mess with the field. Boost + Cloak is fun.
On the testing block, when time permits
A:
Delta + Proton Rockets X2
Delta + Ion X1
Bring in a nice set up strike...
B:
Delta + Ion
Delta + Flechette cannon
Vessery.
Control + Action economy on Vessery.
C:
DeltaX 2
Vessery + adv homing + VI + Tie Mk II
Try to hit through shields - probably too gimmicky
D:
Delta X2
Vessery + Stealth + Lone wolf.
Maybe the most resillient Vessery build.
I run three Defenders often, with much success. Three Onyxs with TIE mkii is the way to go.
Put in two flechette cannons and an ion and your golden, you're moving first and shooting last anyway so sod initiative.
No, I think that's a terrible idea. Firstly that's over 100 points. And secondly I want to kill my targets, not inconvenience them. Making your Defenders more expensive to do less damage is why people have trouble with them.
The cannons supplement your primaries, they don't replace them. They're there to make sure to prevent that B-Wing from turning around, so you can keep hitting it from behind.
I was thinking with deltas, there's really no point using onyx pilots.
Being able to stress and ion the other persons best pilot gives you two turns where they are predictable and one where they are actionless.
So you stress and ion turn two, turn three you use primary weapons on the ships with flechette cannons turn four you stress again if by some miracle the targets still alive.
Also works with big ships the falcon can't take an evade the decimator can't use isard etc.
Your best option is to neutering those ships that shoot before you.
not in my opinion. you have to go deltas (30 point base cost), and then if you add on the obligatory Twin Ion Engine Mk II to help clean up that awful dial:
you're at 93 points. If the Defender had a built in boost action, then you could throw on some Autothrusters to get to 99 points. and hopefully survive the TLT onslaught.
as it is ... meh.
Even if it had Boost, you can't have TIE Mkii and Autothrusters occupying the same modification slot
Edited by FunkletonWell is it?
Anything as expensive as a defender needs more than green dice protecting it, and at 6hp, the defender doesn't have much.
Three Deltas with Ion Cannons is a fantastic control list. They can cause real problems quickly and take down even beefy ships like the B wing in a single pass. There are some list types that will give three Deltas real fits though and your success is determined all too often by those green dice (which tournament players hate).
Psst,
When you can't make 3 work, go with 2.
Use Sheev for defense.
I had great success running the 2 named defenders.
Col. Vessery, pro rockets, HLC, Lone wolf, Stealth device
Rexler Brath, HLC, predator, Stealth device
The trick is staying at range 3 and taking advantage of 5 defense dice, while still hitting with 4 attack dice. The pro rockets were in there just to use the points, and advanced homing missles will probably take there place now. Keep a target lock up with Rex so Vessery gets it free every turn and use focus when you can. I know predator seems redundant here, but I use it so I don't have to use my TL.
I too have run a three ship build, two of them being Deltas, to great success:
2x Delta+HLC
Jonus+Determination+HU
I want to run this but really don't want to buy a 3rd Defender...
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Colonel Vessery (35)
Crack Shot (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Total: 99
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
Vessery just tries to do as much damage before he goes down. Hopefully he can take something nasty with him and the Deltas can clean up the rest of the squad. Deltas make pretty good blockers, but are kind of pricey for the task. I try to get them into shooting position as much as possible.
You need to kill at least one b wing or tlt y wing by the second turn. Ionizing or stressing them is a waste with the Defender's superior dial. Either slow roll or k turn and barrel roll and they will still be in your arc.
Your spending 33+ points to do one damage with the cannons. It's better to kill them than control them and have to kill them later.
I want to run this but really don't want to buy a 3rd Defender...
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Colonel Vessery (35)
Crack Shot (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Total: 99
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
Vessery just tries to do as much damage before he goes down. Hopefully he can take something nasty with him and the Deltas can clean up the rest of the squad. Deltas make pretty good blockers, but are kind of pricey for the task. I try to get them into shooting position as much as possible.
Honestly, I don't think this list will perform the way you are hoping it to. Vessary's PA isn't even being used here. If you're wanting to fly 3 Defenders, and a control list isn't your thing, then I'd try this:
Delta+HLC (this is your heavy hitter)
2x Delta+Mk.II (These Deltas will be able to recover from red maneuvers a bit easier. A PS1, a no action Defender is not a good idea though.)
Delta's make great blockers and that White K makes them dangerous. It doesn't matter if your opponent knows its coming if he still can't do anything about it. Knowing your opponent is expecting the K-turn makes them more predictable too. A round where nothing can shoot your Defender, and your ship is in a better position for next round, is a good round!
3xDelta + Ion Cannon is a fun build.
I want to run this but really don't want to buy a 3rd Defender...
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Colonel Vessery (35)
Crack Shot (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Total: 99
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
Vessery just tries to do as much damage before he goes down. Hopefully he can take something nasty with him and the Deltas can clean up the rest of the squad. Deltas make pretty good blockers, but are kind of pricey for the task. I try to get them into shooting position as much as possible.
Honestly, I don't think this list will perform the way you are hoping it to. Vessary's PA isn't even being used here. If you're wanting to fly 3 Defenders, and a control list isn't your thing, then I'd try this:
Delta+HLC (this is your heavy hitter)
2x Delta+Mk.II (These Deltas will be able to recover from red maneuvers a bit easier. A PS1, a no action Defender is not a good idea though.)
Delta's make great blockers and that White K makes them dangerous. It doesn't matter if your opponent knows its coming if he still can't do anything about it. Knowing your opponent is expecting the K-turn makes them more predictable too. A round where nothing can shoot your Defender, and your ship is in a better position for next round, is a good round!
What do you mean Vessery's pilot ability isn't being used. The Delta's can TL can't they?
I have had success with a Rexlar+Predator + 2 Deltas Finished top 8 in Store Champs with it losing to a Chewie and Leebo double turret build in Swiss, and in the Elimination Rounds a Kath+Whisper Build.
The main weaknesses are bad luck, predator, high PS arc dodgers, and double turrets that can keep hammering the same ship.
However if your green dice are hot it is very frustrating for your opponent to get 3-4 hits just to plink one shield and still have 5 HP left
I'm probably going to give 3 x Delta w/Mk. II and Flechette Cannons a shot. I know that the stress doesn't stack but I've found that I like having an attack that doesn't grant the range 3 bonus when shooting at a high agility target or if I just need to get one more point through to pop a target. Flechettes are cheap enough that even if they only get used a couple of times in a game they are usually worth their points. Having multiple ships with the cannon lets you have your ship with the worst shot apply the stress token while ships with better shots can use their primary to deal more damage.
I want to run this but really don't want to buy a 3rd Defender...
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Colonel Vessery (35)
Crack Shot (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Total: 99
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
Vessery just tries to do as much damage before he goes down. Hopefully he can take something nasty with him and the Deltas can clean up the rest of the squad. Deltas make pretty good blockers, but are kind of pricey for the task. I try to get them into shooting position as much as possible.
Honestly, I don't think this list will perform the way you are hoping it to. Vessary's PA isn't even being used here. If you're wanting to fly 3 Defenders, and a control list isn't your thing, then I'd try this:
Delta+HLC (this is your heavy hitter)
2x Delta+Mk.II (These Deltas will be able to recover from red maneuvers a bit easier. A PS1, a no action Defender is not a good idea though.)
Delta's make great blockers and that White K makes them dangerous. It doesn't matter if your opponent knows its coming if he still can't do anything about it. Knowing your opponent is expecting the K-turn makes them more predictable too. A round where nothing can shoot your Defender, and your ship is in a better position for next round, is a good round!
What do you mean Vessery's pilot ability isn't being used. The Delta's can TL can't they?
They can, but a PS 1 Delta without a focus is going to get shot down much quicker than you'd like. TL is a great action when you KNOW you are not going to be shot back, but at PS 1, this can be hard to determine. Also, taking a TL with such a low PS can be a real gamble. That ship may not be in your firing arc after it has moved.
I want to run this but really don't want to buy a 3rd Defender...
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Colonel Vessery (35)
Crack Shot (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
Total: 99
View in Yet Another Squad Builder
Vessery just tries to do as much damage before he goes down. Hopefully he can take something nasty with him and the Deltas can clean up the rest of the squad. Deltas make pretty good blockers, but are kind of pricey for the task. I try to get them into shooting position as much as possible.
Honestly, I don't think this list will perform the way you are hoping it to. Vessary's PA isn't even being used here. If you're wanting to fly 3 Defenders, and a control list isn't your thing, then I'd try this:
Delta+HLC (this is your heavy hitter)
2x Delta+Mk.II (These Deltas will be able to recover from red maneuvers a bit easier. A PS1, a no action Defender is not a good idea though.)
Delta's make great blockers and that White K makes them dangerous. It doesn't matter if your opponent knows its coming if he still can't do anything about it. Knowing your opponent is expecting the K-turn makes them more predictable too. A round where nothing can shoot your Defender, and your ship is in a better position for next round, is a good round!
What do you mean Vessery's pilot ability isn't being used. The Delta's can TL can't they?
They can, but a PS 1 Delta without a focus is going to get shot down much quicker than you'd like. TL is a great action when you KNOW you are not going to be shot back, but at PS 1, this can be hard to determine. Also, taking a TL with such a low PS can be a real gamble. That ship may not be in your firing arc after it has moved.
If you are shooting at a PS 1 Delta while Vessery is sitting there you are doing it wrong. I'd actually want them to shoot at the Delta instead of Vessery.
Edited by Jo JoYou can also just take the TL with the Delta when it is in a reasonably safe position and just leave it there for a few turns, letting Vessery chew on the target for a while.
If you run Delta would you take a focus or evade?
I'm about .500 with various Triple Defender builds:
3 Deltas with Hull
3 Deltas with Ion
Predator Rexler and 2 Deltas
They might actually start performing better if TLT spam becomes a dominant strategy. 6 HP and 3 defense dice means a little more than 6 TLT shots (12 attacks total) to take out a defender when neither party has a focus. 7 HP makes it nearly 8 TLT shots (a bit over 15 attacks).
The problem with Defenders is that they're normal ships, and you're only running 3 of them.
A child with ice cream smeared on his face rolls his game ruining RAC with Predator up beside one of your Delta Squadron pilots. He rolls hit hit hit crit after he has thoroughly pillaged all the fun out of the action economy aspect of the game. Your Defender rolls evade blank blank and takes 3 shields. You luck out and only take 2 damage from Whisper, and your opponent sighs as if that wasn't enough.
It's your turn to fire, and only 2 of your Defenders have shots on the Decimator because of Engine Upgrade. You do 5 damage to it. The other Defender has a shot on Whisper, and it misses because Whisper is still game ruining.
This is the problem with the Defender. If all it had to do was face TIE Fighters and X Wings and Starvipers and Y Wings it'd just be a little overpriced but playable and they could leverage the advantages they do have in a normal dogfight to their advantage.
Against TLT lists, PS bids to Oynx squadron and their ability to do a 5 green/3 green bank with TIE MK II to help them close to the doughnut hole might actually mean something.
Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer