So lets say someone has all the power enhancements under Jedi Mind Whammie - I don't have the book with me, but it says that the power lasts X rounds or 5 minutes. But what happens in minute six?
Did those troopers on Tatooine go "Hey, wait a sec! I DO need to see his identification!" a few speeder searches later? Or do they just forget about whatever issue was on their mind at the moment.
Well, didn't stormtroopers enter the cantina after Obi-wan and Han concluded their dealings?
I let the fog lift and "remember" or "recall" the subjects (barring other obstacles). This can lead to bread crumbs for the ISB to follow.
I've wondered this same thing. It seems much less handy if 5 minutes later the target can go "Heeeey, wait a minute."
So lets say someone has all the power enhancements under Jedi Mind Whammie - I don't have the book with me, but it says that the power lasts X rounds or 5 minutes. But what happens in minute six?
Did those troopers on Tatooine go "Hey, wait a sec! I DO need to see his identification!" a few speeder searches later? Or do they just forget about whatever issue was on their mind at the moment.
I'd assume it just means the effect wears off, with the result being highly contextual based on the Whammie narrative. If they have no reason to think about it, they won't. If they have reason to think about it, then they'd realize something was totally wrong.
So if you whammied them with "I'm just another guy on routine business, you can let me through." The wear off result would be they'd remember another guy on routine business was let through but wouldn't think of it any further without external motivation.
If pressured about the guy or his routine business in any meaningful way, they'd have trouble remembering the details of why you were let through and start to recall you kinda looked like those wanted holos and they can't rightly recall why they suddenly decided you were ok.
On the other hand if you went with "You are George Clooney, lizard man from the planet Smug VII" then when it wore off they'd probably be in a position to more immediately scrutinize their recent behavior without any help.
The target believes whatever the Mind Trick said was to be true at that time. Once the duration ends, as long as something doesn't come along that directly contradicts or reminds the target what they were supposed to do, it should just be something they don't give a second thought about.
I'll give you an example; Ben tricks the stormtroopers into letting them pass with the droids unchecked and the identification left un-reviewed. The trooper thinks nothing of it and when he's done with his patrol he reports to his superiors that he didn't find the droids. If his superior then asks "are you sure you checked everyone and every droid you saw", at that time the trooper may remember the fact that he let an old man, a farmboy, and two droids past his checkpoint without checking their ID.
If, for whatever reason, Luke and Ben loitered around for the full duration of the Mind Trick, the "misremember" could happen sooner. The trooper might look over at Ben, Luke, and the Droids, and realize "wait, I do need to check their ID. What was I thinking?" and stomp on over confused and perturbed at the trouble he could get into with his commander by missing them.
That's how I handle it.
On a related note, I'm curious. How much can you effect somebodies mind with the old mind whammie. Can you make them believe an ally is an enemy and switch sides mid fight, or convince a gamorrean guard that he's really a Twi'Lek dancing girl?
I might allow it, as long as you're willing to accept Conflict. I see that as domination of another being, and forcing them to take an action that they normally would not even consider. When the duration ends, they may very well remember someone influencing their thoughts in some way.
Edited by DarthGM
I might allow it, as long as you're willing to accept Conflict. I see that as domination of another being, and forcing them to take an action that they normally would not even consider. When the duration ends, they may very well remember someone influencing their thoughts in some way.
How about if we take it to the next level. What if the heroes are up against an evil Force User, and said Sithly type Effects Mind on their Marauder, telling her that her friends are now her enemies? This would obviously be combat time, so it wouldn't be the full five minutes, just the allotted number of rounds (which I can't currently remember).
Edited by Split LightOn a related note, I'm curious. How much can you effect somebodies mind with the old mind whammie. Can you make them believe an ally is an enemy and switch sides mid fight, or convince a gamorrean guard that he's really a Twi'Lek dancing girl?
Okay, I'm talking off the top of my head, but I might kick the Wham-ee some extra blues or an upgrade to resist, depending on how directly opposed to the action they would be.
What if the heroes are up against an evil Force User, and said Sithly type Effects Mind on their Marauder, telling her that her friends are now her enemies?
No. No. No. Absolutely not.
These responses are spot on:
If they have no reason to think about it, they won't. If they have reason to think about it, then they'd realize something was totally wrong.
The target believes whatever the Mind Trick said was to be true at that time. Once the duration ends, as long as something doesn't come along that directly contradicts or reminds the target what they were supposed to do, it should just be something they don't give a second thought about.
But if you're a Shadow with the "Now You See Me" talent, they won't even remember the mind-trick happened.
Looking at the films, all of the Jedi mind tricks are pretty innocuous. Obi-Wan didn't tell the drug pusher how to change his life, just to rethink it. Qui-Gon didn't try to get a free hyperdrive from Watto, just to use different currency. I would say that attempting a more intrusive trick that combats a character's core values and personality would certainly upgrade the difficulty of the opposed Discipline check. The EU has examples of much more powerful uses of Influence, such as C'Baoth rewriting or erasing entire personalities, but to me this should be upgraded in difficulty several times (in addition to obvious boatloads of Conflict). The basic uses of Mind Trick we've seen have all been for pretty small manipulations of will. Anything more significant should be harder.
As for what happens afterwards, I think the character's actions will remain reasonable-seeming in hindsight, although for no good reason. The stormtrooper probably remains convinced he didn't need to see their ID, but wouldn't be able to offer any reason as to why...which would likely strike him as odd if pressed on the matter. Elan Sleazbaganno was no longer being influenced halfway home, but stopped and thought "Where am I going? Oh yes, home. To rethink my life. I remember." and it didn't strike him as odd. At least until he gets home and his abusive boyfriend is there waiting for him demanding an explanation that he can't give about why he isn't pushing product...
Stopping before my post becomes fanfic.
As a general rule, I would say the mind trick is affected by Newton's law governing the conservation of plot momentum. A plot in motion will tend to remain in motion until acted upon by an outside force. As others have said the trick to the mind trick is to use it and get away just in case the continued presence of the Jedi makes them reflect on the affected actions. Some other plot force could force them to realize that they had been duped, much like an outside force could affect a deception check. The difference being that a mind trick clearly can have more omph than a deception roll.
As for moving from the realm of "These aren't the droids your looking for" to "Your friends are your enemies," this is pretty clearly gallivanting merrily into the realm of the Dark Side. Now, me personally, I am from the school of thought that says RPG mind control can't force you to to do something obviously suicidal, so no jumping off cliffs, no eating your own lightsaber, etc. Now, is turning on your friends obviously suicidal? Depends on your friends, I suppose. Now, certain story factors may come into play. Like in the example of the marauder, if it was a Wookie, you probably couldn't get them to turn on a jedi or someone they owe a life debt to, as that is an extreme cultural taboo. As a general rule, though it seems within the realm of possibility, but the likelihood of the character resisting such a suggestion in the extreme is high. This may take the form of upgrades on the roll to resist the mental domination all the way to flipping a destiny to voluntarily stagger themselves as they fight the control with every fiber of their being.
Now, I should say that my above statement only addresses the question of "can I do this?" and not "should I do this?" Should you do that? Probably not, as this kind of thing can cause some issues at the table. Now, everybody's table is different, and your Kessel Run may vary, but in the column of things that mitigate the potential negative impact of this action, out and out by the dice killing blows are actually pretty hard to come by, so a little time in a bacta tank due to your mind controlled buddy may be less of a problem than a coffin, but still, this is not something I would do on a whim, or with people I haven't been playing with for a VERY long time.
On a related note, I'm curious. How much can you effect somebodies mind with the old mind whammie. Can you make them believe an ally is an enemy and switch sides mid fight, or convince a gamorrean guard that he's really a Twi'Lek dancing girl?
Okay, I'm talking off the top of my head, but I might kick the Wham-ee some extra blues or an upgrade to resist, depending on how directly opposed to the action they would be.
What if the heroes are up against an evil Force User, and said Sithly type Effects Mind on their Marauder, telling her that her friends are now her enemies?
No. No. No. Absolutely not.
Your opinion in this matter doesn't count. You're biased.
And I'll see you Friday Mua ha ha ha ha.
What if the heroes are up against an evil Force User, and said Sithly type Effects Mind on their Marauder, telling her that her friends are now her enemies?
No. No. No. Absolutely not.
Your opinion in this matter doesn't count. You're biased.
And I'll see you Friday Mua ha ha ha ha.
Considering I tossed a conundrum at one of my players that made him have dreams about the problem after our last big session, I can see someone is having a fun session! *Offers Split LIght a high five*
I'm an evil GM, and I approve this message.
These responses are spot on:
If they have no reason to think about it, they won't. If they have reason to think about it, then they'd realize something was totally wrong.
The target believes whatever the Mind Trick said was to be true at that time. Once the duration ends, as long as something doesn't come along that directly contradicts or reminds the target what they were supposed to do, it should just be something they don't give a second thought about.
But if you're a Shadow with the "Now You See Me" talent, they won't even remember the mind-trick happened.
Oh sure, once you start layering on extra talents and effects you can get to that level of "Awesome".
These responses are spot on:
If they have no reason to think about it, they won't. If they have reason to think about it, then they'd realize something was totally wrong.
The target believes whatever the Mind Trick said was to be true at that time. Once the duration ends, as long as something doesn't come along that directly contradicts or reminds the target what they were supposed to do, it should just be something they don't give a second thought about.
But if you're a Shadow with the "Now You See Me" talent, they won't even remember the mind-trick happened.
Oh sure, once you start layering on extra talents and effects you can get to that level of "Awesome".
Talents really have brought the awesome to Force Users.
I might allow it, as long as you're willing to accept Conflict. I see that as domination of another being, and forcing them to take an action that they normally would not even consider. When the duration ends, they may very well remember someone influencing their thoughts in some way.
How about if we take it to the next level. What if the heroes are up against an evil Force User, and said Sithly type Effects Mind on their Marauder, telling her that her friends are now her enemies? This would obviously be combat time, so it wouldn't be the full five minutes, just the allotted number of rounds (which I can't currently remember).
This kind of thing can be a lot of fun, but definitely get your players' buy-in before it comes up. Ask them if they would be ok with the possibility of control being taken away from them, as that can be a real touchy subject, and definitely don't get their characters killed while under your control.
That said, if they do agree to it, what everyone else said sounds about right- extra upgrades to the difficulty of the Discipline check are in order (the PCs are naturally much more strong-willed than the average mook).
Conversely, the Sith technique of Dun Moch isn't outright mind control. Even Sidious himself, strongest Dark Sider in history, doesn't try to just mind whammie Luke. Or Anakin for that matter. He wants Luke to give into anger and hate, he doesn't just use his almighty connection to the Dark Side to force it on him. He tells Anakin he can save Padme for him, that he can give him what he wants about stopping people he cares about from dying. Obviously, Sidious doesn't give a hoot about the conflict, he's morality 0 and intends to stay that way.
So if Dun Moch is how the Sith try to make people evil, I imagine it isn't possible to do it any other way. Cause if a guy like Sidous could just mindmash Luke or even Anakin, he probably would.
Elan Sleazbaganno was no longer being influenced halfway home, but stopped and thought "Where am I going? Oh yes, home. To rethink my life. I remember." and it didn't strike him as odd. At least until he gets home and his abusive boyfriend is there waiting for him demanding an explanation that he can't give about why he isn't pushing product...
Stopping before my post becomes fanfic.
Haha, look up some of the side stories about him, you aren't too far off! Kept trying to clean up but fell right back into it every couple of years. I think he was actually in treatment on Alderaan when it was destroyed.
As to the original question; I'm in favor of a gradual wear-off, with the deception not discovered unless something else brings it back up. Otherwise the public at large would know a lot more about the Jedi, and be a lot less happy about them. Some of the later Legends stuff goes into this actually; the more the New Jedi Order intervenes, the more people know about Jedi, and the less they like 'em.
I might allow it, as long as you're willing to accept Conflict. I see that as domination of another being, and forcing them to take an action that they normally would not even consider. When the duration ends, they may very well remember someone influencing their thoughts in some way.
If I were GMing, I would say that pushing someone to do something so far outside their normal behavior would carry an automatic upgrade in difficulty, and probably 1-3 setback dice, depending on the danger inherent in the new role. Something like that. Definitely causes conflict.
Although, this looks to me more like the Dark Side Mastery upgrade usage of Battle Meditation.
Conversely, the Sith technique of Dun Moch isn't outright mind control. Even Sidious himself, strongest Dark Sider in history, doesn't try to just mind whammie Luke. Or Anakin for that matter. He wants Luke to give into anger and hate, he doesn't just use his almighty connection to the Dark Side to force it on him. He tells Anakin he can save Padme for him, that he can give him what he wants about stopping people he cares about from dying. Obviously, Sidious doesn't give a hoot about the conflict, he's morality 0 and intends to stay that way.
So if Dun Moch is how the Sith try to make people evil, I imagine it isn't possible to do it any other way. Cause if a guy like Sidous could just mindmash Luke or even Anakin, he probably would.
I think the idea here, is that bending someone's will to your own as forcefully (pun intended) as is being discussed in this thread has a short-term effect, whereas more subtle nudges are going to get you long-term results. Plus, something like Palpatine's assurance that he can save Padme isn't something that is likely to get jarred in the way the stormtroopers' superior asking them if they checked everyone's identification will. Who's going to ask about it? Why would Anakin not believe it's possible?