Hey guys ! It's MoffZen with once again a tactical debate thread !

This time, we're pitting two Gladiators together : the Gladiator I and the Gladiator II !

Compared to the other Imperial ship, the Victory, the two platforms are very close in terms of features. For 6 points, you gain an extra anti-squadron dice and you switch one black die on both sides for a red die.

The floor is yours ! What are in your opinion the strength of both Gladiators classes ?

To me, it seems that the Gladiator I is the most suited for the title upgrades (Demolisher because it allows to apply a healthy dose of black dice early on, Insidious because it allows to apply a healthy dose of black dice later on). The Gladiator 2 seems like an off-carrier ship when you want to coordinate a small and accurate force of fighters. The extra blue dice will help against squadrons, while the repartition between red dice feels like a smaller scale Victory I (one less red dice on each side).

Gladiator II in my opinion is a support option and the I is the damage dealer.

When it comes to Anti-Ship Firepower, you have to ask yourself:

"Are you better off for the majority of your attacks, Throwing an Extra Black Die, or hoping for an Accuracy on a single Red?"

If you don't trust Red die at all, then just go for the Glad-I. Its cheaper, and 1 Blue vs 2 Blue Anti-Squadron dice *rarely* (not always) doesn't make a difference to enemy Squadrons... because they're either all/nothing vs your own fighter screen... **** survivable bastards...

I think the Glad 2 will pick up a larger share of the gladiators in wave 2.

i can see it being really good in a non-Screed fleet and using a sensor team or something to get a guaranteed accuracy for the black dice. We already Screed away a black die, this is similar.

Glad 1..

These ships are used for massive damage in a quick shot. They are not used to clear fighters. Seems like a waste of points for an added red and blue dice.

I add Expanded launchers, Sensor Team, Intel Officer, Engine Techs and Demolisher along with a Concentrate fire command. Shooting 2 Red 5 Black up front and then 4 Black from a side. If thats not enough to kill you then I Double Ram for 2 more damage. I remove your defense tokens with the Sensor Team and Intel officer, burning a miss to make a red dice show Accuracy. Easy Peasy!

My vote has always been for the Glad I.

I don't feel that the Glad II is a great support ship. Two blue anti-squadron dice are great if you're a rebel ship, but rebel squadrons can take far more of a beat with their extra hp.

Has anyone found a great use for the Glad II? I would love to hear your ideas.

Glad II is waiting for the day when people view bombers as enough of a threat that TIE fighters (and interceptors) are used more often. THEN, the 2 blue anti-squadron dice will shine. But if you're not seeing lots of 3hp squadrons, the extra die doesn't really mean much.

One black to one red on the sides doesn't do much at the moment, UNLESS you are using/seeing a lot of opening salvo or most wanted. At that point, the red turns on those abilities at a longer range. In the same vein, an Imperial Fleet that for some reason wants to be a long range fleet, might use a Glad II to encourage the enemy to keep their distance while spamming CF dials. This is not the same usage as the hunter-killer packs currently seen where the Nav command (and engine tech) is far more important.

I'm cheap, so I go for the Glad 1. Then add in Demolisher and ACMs

If the Die on the Side was a Blue, and not a Red, I'd be all over the Glad-II... Being able to go: "Here's a Bunch of Black Dice, oh, and there's an Accuracy to remove your Brace Token..." I'd drool.

But with the Red, it just doens't happen enough.

Interesting points so far guys, keep them coming !

So, while the Gladiator I would specialize more in ship-to-ship raw damage, perhaps the Gladiator II would specialized in targeted damage ?

I've always wondered why Chiraneau was an upgrade included in the Gladiator set over the Victory (which is a more natural carrier), aside from the obvious cross-selling ploy.

Then I was thinking that a Glad 2 with Chiraneau managing a wing of Rhymer and a TIE Bomber could be interesting. Basically giving him 2 extra Black Dice at very long range without the TIE Bombers being ever stuck into engagement, and forcing a dedicated enemy carrier to spam the Squadron Command to keep damaging them.

Add in a Glad 2 with Sensor Team and a banked CF token, and you could potentially have some nice damage focus.

Imperial fighters are only great against fighters other than bombers and those can get tied up easy.

As a primarily Rebel player, I had my bomber wing get completely worked over by the point-defense of a pair of Gladiator IIs and a Victory I Dominator in a recent game (if you read this, you know who you are ). Worst squadron casualties I've ever taken. On the other hand, his ships got hammered in return. The only reason to consider a Gladiator II is for the anti-squadron firepower.

One red die is not worth it; It'll whiff almost half the time (remember the accuracy result is useless without other dice in the pool) and at close range a black die beats it both on maximum damage and consistency. You're already paying for all those black dice, you shouldn't pay more for a reason to stay back and not use them. Opening Salvo is more useful the larger a pool you already have, to the point where I will happily hold my fire entirely for a better shot.

GSD-II all day, I like being able to actually attack fighters and get some shots in before I pound them with the black dice.

Currently playing rebels with few fighters, so please take the II

Currently playing rebels with few fighters, so please take the II

Your comment might be tongue in cheek, but I feel that it's extremely teaching. It shows that it's not interesting to take the Gladiator II solely for the extra anti-squadron or as the primary reason to include it in the list, because it's 62 points better spent elsewhere when fighting squadronless opponents.

So, to take the Glad II because the anti-squadron is interesting, I think there should be an extra role to make it interesting. For example, when using the Gladiator II to coordinate a micro Bomber Wing that has sucky anti-squadron dice, then having 2 blue dice as cover is quite interesting.

So, to sum up the Glad II builds that people have talked about :

1) Micro Bomber Wing support :Glad II with either Chiraneau or Flight Controllers managing 2 TIE Bombers including perhaps Rhymer. With Chiraneau, a Glad I might be a better option due to having slippery bombers, playtest is needed.

2) Accurate Black Dice : Glad II with Sensor Team, relying on Concentrate Fire Commands to essentially get a free accuracy on its red dice. Maybe Expanded Launchers to have that extra dice to spend for the accuracies.

(Now I'm imagining 3 Hit Crits and an accuracy cancelling the Brace )

That ship is starting to get interesting

Why is this even a question??

Glad I, period. Glad II is a total waste of points. An extra blue dice is not going to help you against squadrons. And if you're not at close range, you're maneuvering wrong, and if you're at close range the red die is a waste as opposed to the black die.

Much better to take a I with ACM than a II. Anything else is inefficient.

And the only thing you need to put on a Glad is ACMs. Only command it needs is navigate, and the occasional engineering.

And the only thing you need to put on a Glad is ACMs. Only command it needs is navigate, and the occasional engineering.

Only a Sith deals in absolute Besides, many people are using Glads with ACM so tactical counters are being developed as we speak by the Rebellion. I'm pretty sure that by the time Wave 2 hits the shelves, ACM Gladspam won't be scary anymore even without having new expansion boxes

I don't think the Glad II should be discounted at all as a platform... Let's compare it to its point equivalent : the Neb B Escort. For 5 additional points, you trade a Brace for a redirect, you switch a red dice on the front hull zone for 2 black dice and a blue dice for 3 black dice on the side arcs, and you gain two shields on the sides and lose one in the rear. Overall, it's not a bad deal !

Next Imperial game, I'm definitely going to try a Glad II with Chiraneau managing 2 TIE Bombers including Rhymers. Now, the Glad has a way to project Black dice at long range while on the way, and can keep up with the Bombers drawing in any interception and annoying them with the 2 anti-squadron barrage prior to an independent fighter screen coming in.

I just know, the amount of Time I've poured 6+ damage onto an enemy and seen it braced away to 3 and not get through their shields has REALLY left me wishing I could trust that Red Die...

I just know, the amount of Time I've poured 6+ damage onto an enemy and seen it braced away to 3 and not get through their shields has REALLY left me wishing I could trust that Red Die...

In Sensor Team we trust, it also helps clean up these pesky blank Black and Red dice that we rerolled even with Concetrate Fire...

I can understand the Gladiator 1 with the Demolisher title since it allows for easier access to get within short range to get the beautiful broadside. Other than that, I have to say the Gladiator 2 since it gives you flexibility to the ever flowing game. With the mechanic of moving then shooting, only rarely am I ever able to get a Gladiator 1 to effectively get a shot off that does not have the Demolisher title.

The rebels like to rabbit where the lone red die could do damage, they can't brace a single damage and depending on the situation they may not want to use a redirect. With evade, always depends on the range that you are at; long range why bother, whereas at medium you never know what you might roll.

With the Gladiator 2, I run them naked unless I am fighting for first activation where they then get Engine Techs to get that last little bit of movement to hope for a next turn activation.

DEATH BY A THOUSAND STINGS!

I can see a Glad 2 used as defense support for the ISD. Fully loaded with Intel Officer, Sensor Team, Engine Techs, ACMs and Demolisher. That is a 99 point point Beating Stick. You could pop the Sensor Team on the side arks or with the front.

Naboobo2000

Lupine's experience is his own. He does not need more than that because that is what works in his area.

My personal opinion is the GSD 1.

Why do I want a red die? It does not activate my ACMs for me. It has fewer double damage icons. When my goal is to get into close range who needs red dice?

Red dice or not, maximizing a GSD means getting them close to enemy ships anyway. I might as well get a GSD I and use the extra points for upgrades.

What kite and Lyraeus said.