Just give it +1 attack dice. All the worries about maneuvering and durability would go away. Torpedoes would still be viable options as they prevent range 3 bonus and have a built in calculation without the requirement of a focus token.

Holy glass cannons batman! It would have to cost 3-4 points, and it would strongly favor the more expensive named pilots (i.e. Wedge) while leaving the generics comparatively weaker and still unused.

Generic phantoms are what, 25 points at 4 attack with the focus evade barrel roll and cloak actions and a superior dial?

Just give it +1 attack dice. All the worries about maneuvering and durability would go away. Torpedoes would still be viable options as they prevent range 3 bonus and have a built in calculation without the requirement of a focus token.

Holy glass cannons batman! It would have to cost 3-4 points, and it would strongly favor the more expensive named pilots (i.e. Wedge) while leaving the generics comparatively weaker and still unused.

Isn't it 3 points under cost? So give it a cheaper cost, maybe like 2 points. 92 points for 4 rookies with the title.

Generic phantoms are what, 25 points at 4 attack with the focus evade barrel roll and cloak actions and a superior dial?

So, what do you want to do -- make it cheaper, or give it +1ATT?

Rookie Pilot at 25 points at 4/2/3/2 has a jousting efficiency of 94.2%.

Wedge at 33 points at 4/2/3/2 has a jousting efficiency of 106%.

Just give it +1 attack dice. All the worries about maneuvering and durability would go away. Torpedoes would still be viable options as they prevent range 3 bonus and have a built in calculation without the requirement of a focus token.

Holy glass cannons batman! It would have to cost 3-4 points, and it would strongly favor the more expensive named pilots (i.e. Wedge) while leaving the generics comparatively weaker and still unused.

Isn't it 3 points under cost? So give it a cheaper cost, maybe like 2 points. 92 points for 4 rookies with the title.

Generic phantoms are what, 25 points at 4 attack with the focus evade barrel roll and cloak actions and a superior dial?

So, what do you want to do -- make it cheaper, or give it +1ATT?

Rookie Pilot at 25 points at 4/2/3/2 has a jousting efficiency of 94.2%.

Wedge at 33 points at 4/2/3/2 has a jousting efficiency of 106%.

It's a good thing the game doesn't always come down to jousting then.

Giving it higher attack will make it dish out more damage for the short time it is on the board. It can still be outmaneuvered and outgunned, blocked, bombed, etc. Ordnance will still wreck them with their 2 evade dice.

The cheaper cost was meant to be factored into the title I proposed, considering the ship is overcosted.

Personally I'm not worried about the upcoming fix FFG has planned for the T-65. I'm basing this belief on the results of previous fixes they've produced for ships like the TIE Advanced and A-Wing.

And no, I don't think that the T-65 should get boost. The T-70 is a new fighter with improved technologies like stronger shielding and improved engines. Once again FFG is using a real world example for this. In WW2 the US Navy was using the F4-F Wildcat, an underpowered fighter, in the early stages of the Pacific War. This would be your T-65. After they recovered the Akutan Zero, designers sat down and devloped the F6-F Hellcat, a fighter with a more powerful engine and improved performance for dogfighting. This is your T-70. The F4-F and F6-F had a similar look but were definitely two different aircraft, just like the T-65 and T-70.

Thing is, the X-wing's not underpowered, it was one of the best fighters of its day. The current ship doesn't reflect that.

I still like the idea of a t65 specific torpedo upgrade that lowers the cost by say like 2, nothing crazy, and +1 to primary weapon attack for the loss of the ordnance slot. Helps all versions, increases offensive output without taking the maneuverability feel away from superior ships and lets it feel more like the 4 gun ship it should be. Let's all be honest, aside from the famous hail mary and the occasional star destroyer shot how many times on camera has an x wing fired a torpedo? I can't think of any, it's a dog fighter and I believe it is classified as a space superiority fighter. That says dog fighter to me not light bomber.

edit:forgot about Wedge at Endor taking out the power conduit, but it's Wedge freaking Antilles, one of the greatest non-jedi fighter pilots in the galaxy

Boost and BR, EPT for Rogue Squadron title.

If that's not enough double all stats.

If it's still not enough bring the cost down 10 points.

If that's stil not enough play scum Special K. Cause appearantly that's what FFG wants you to do.

Why do you need a fix for the T-65 to make it equal to the T-70 when you can just use the T-70?

What is the new fix for Tie Fighter_ln to make them equal to the Tie Fighter_FO ?

Personally I'm not worried about the upcoming fix FFG has planned for the T-65. I'm basing this belief on the results of previous fixes they've produced for ships like the TIE Advanced and A-Wing.

And no, I don't think that the T-65 should get boost. The T-70 is a new fighter with improved technologies like stronger shielding and improved engines. Once again FFG is using a real world example for this. In WW2 the US Navy was using the F4-F Wildcat, an underpowered fighter, in the early stages of the Pacific War. This would be your T-65. After they recovered the Akutan Zero, designers sat down and devloped the F6-F Hellcat, a fighter with a more powerful engine and improved performance for dogfighting. This is your T-70. The F4-F and F6-F had a similar look but were definitely two different aircraft, just like the T-65 and T-70.

Thing is, the X-wing's not underpowered, it was one of the best fighters of its day. The current ship doesn't reflect that.

I would love it if they added a T-70 Retrofit title card for the X-Wing that gave it +1 Shield, Boost, and the new Upgrade slot.

Granted, it wouldn't be able to give it the T-70s new dial, but at the right price, it would still be a worthy upgrade to the old X-Wing.

What they didn't tell you is the T-70 dial is all greens including 4 and 5 turns and banks, and green sloops and k-turns at all speeds except 1. That would be just silly to include 1 speed sloops, right!

A fix for the T-65 should be exciting and new. Like the Love Boat, but I digress.

This is the namesake of the game. It should get something original and thematic. It has 4 wing guns. In the lore, those guns get to fire in different modes. So, thinking originally and outside the box, what if it got a fix that gave it 4 attack dice that could be allotted any way you choose against one or two targets, in one or two separate attacks? So you could shoot 2 and 2, 3 and 1, or all 4 at once. There could be interesting possibilities when you have two 1-agility ships in arc, or a 1-hull wounded decimator with another enemy ship in arc.

Cost for this? Dunno.

Treat it as a secondary weapon, so range bonuses don't count? Or keep range bonuses available, so you could theoretically get 3 and 3 attacks, or 3 and 2, or simply 5 against a single target.

It's no turret weapon, so I suspect the situational aspect of this would keep it from being too overpowered.

Am I just nuts, or would this make the X-Wing fun, different and creatively original within this game?

Oh my poor sweet naive friend. Just go out and buy brand new T-70 in the core set and throw away those sill little Rookie Pilots. While you are at it just throw away your I-Pad S and get the brand new I-Pad S-5! It's just better

Just give it +1 attack dice. All the worries about maneuvering and durability would go away. Torpedoes would still be viable options as they prevent range 3 bonus and have a built in calculation without the requirement of a focus token.

Holy glass cannons batman! It would have to cost 3-4 points, and it would strongly favor the more expensive named pilots (i.e. Wedge) while leaving the generics comparatively weaker and still unused.

Well considering Engune Upgrade is 4 points and Shield Upgrade is also 4 points and the T-70 gets both for only 3 points (buy 1 get 1 free deal? no it is a better discount than that) plus it has the modification slot still open which means hello Autothrusters. I think this is the end of the Rookie Pilot as we know it despite what cost modifications we do to it.

plus it has the modification slot still open which means hello Autothrusters.

Now if they'd just package the **** things with some other freakin ship!

Oh my poor sweet naive friend. Just go out and buy brand new T-70 in the core set and throw away those sill little Rookie Pilots. While you are at it just throw away your I-Pad S and get the brand new I-Pad S-5! It's just better

Clearly there was going to be something for the new movie, which prominently features a next-gen X-wing. The developers have clearly and publicly acknowledged the original X-wing is underperforming for its cost.

So the options were (a) make next-gen X-wings that are cost-effective like TIE fighters and B-wings, and risk pushing the original X-wing a bit further out of the game, or (b) release intentionally underpowered next-gen X-wings, making sure neither generation of X-wing would be a good metagame choice.

You're saying you'd really rather have scenario (b)?

Well considering Engune Upgrade is 4 points and Shield Upgrade is also 4 points and the T-70 gets both for only 3 points (buy 1 get 1 free deal? no it is a better discount than that) plus it has the modification slot still open which means hello Autothrusters. I think this is the end of the Rookie Pilot as we know it despite what cost modifications we do to it.

Except that's not how ship pricing works. And I know you know that, which means you're just being mulish because you feel like it. So how long are you going to spend being deliberately unpleasant about this?

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Clearly there was going to be something for the new movie, which prominently features a next-gen X-wing. The developers have clearly and publicly acknowledged the original X-wing is underperforming for its cost.

So the options were (a) make next-gen X-wings that are cost-effective like TIE fighters and B-wings, and risk pushing the original X-wing a bit further out of the game, or (b) release intentionally underpowered next-gen X-wings, making sure neither generation of X-wing would be a good metagame choice.

You're saying you'd really rather have scenario (b)?

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Except that's not how ship pricing works. And I know you know that, which means you're just being mulish because you feel like it. So how long are you going to spend being deliberately unpleasant about this?

So how is ship pricing working? 2 points for another shield and 1 point for the boost? The T-70 should start at 1 more point but then again the power creep is real and the X-wing fix was simply making a better X-wing.

Still if your problem is how I won't praise this second edition as the best thing to happen to X-wing I will say that it isn't the power creep that is making me all so mulish. It is the fact I have 2 core sets and a whole lot of other expansions that will soon be competitive-illegal unless I buy another core set once the new ones are released. The fact that Magic invalidates decks each year is why I don't play that game. Games workshop also discontinued a lot of models that I had bought painted or scratch built because there was no model being sold is one of the reasons why I also left Warhammer 40,000. I had all my armies invalidated by the latest codexes in a period of a few months. Now that's unpleasant.

I still think the easiest solution is give a chardaan like negative cost to it for not using the torpedo or the astromech. Most likely the torpedo since that's hardly ever used on xwings.

Probably only -1 point to make it same cost as the scum version.

I still think the easiest solution is give a chardaan like negative cost to it for not using the torpedo or the astromech. Most likely the torpedo since that's hardly ever used on xwings.

Probably only -1 point to make it same cost as the scum version.

No More Chardaans!

Seriously all that did was made missile secondary weapons never usable again. Even when a good one like proton rockets came out still you just wouldn't use it because saving those 2 points was just so much better especially in the MOV game.

I mean if you want to make people throw away all their torpedo cards (might as well we already have to throw away our damage decks) then sure but otherwise a straight up negative point cost to remove a slot should not happen. Slots really don't add any points they just make it easier for you to spend more points.

Now upgrades that discount torpedoes say by 1 point would be better. EM makes it cheaper to double up on torpedoes but single torpedo slots ships don't have any cost reductions for their torpedo upgrades.

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Clearly there was going to be something for the new movie, which prominently features a next-gen X-wing. The developers have clearly and publicly acknowledged the original X-wing is underperforming for its cost.

So the options were (a) make next-gen X-wings that are cost-effective like TIE fighters and B-wings, and risk pushing the original X-wing a bit further out of the game, or (b) release intentionally underpowered next-gen X-wings, making sure neither generation of X-wing would be a good metagame choice.

You're saying you'd really rather have scenario (b)?

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Except that's not how ship pricing works. And I know you know that, which means you're just being mulish because you feel like it. So how long are you going to spend being deliberately unpleasant about this?

So how is ship pricing working? 2 points for another shield and 1 point for the boost? The T-70 should start at 1 more point but then again the power creep is real and the X-wing fix was simply making a better X-wing.

Still if your problem is how I won't praise this second edition as the best thing to happen to X-wing I will say that it isn't the power creep that is making me all so mulish. It is the fact I have 2 core sets and a whole lot of other expansions that will soon be competitive-illegal unless I buy another core set once the new ones are released. The fact that Magic invalidates decks each year is why I don't play that game. Games workshop also discontinued a lot of models that I had bought painted or scratch built because there was no model being sold is one of the reasons why I also left Warhammer 40,000. I had all my armies invalidated by the latest codexes in a period of a few months. Now that's unpleasant.

A +1 increase to the shield value of a ship with 2 Agility is worth 1-2 points when added to a ship in the low 20s. Boost is worth very little on a ship with low PS--maybe 1 point--but quite a lot on a ship with high PS. (It's also worth more on higher-priced ships, since it often functions like a defensive upgrade that can cancel an arbitrary number of incoming attacks.) Changes to dials are hard to quantify.

So it's quite hard to say what a hypothetical next-gen X-wing with +1 hit point, boost, and a revised dial would cost without extensive playtesting. But it's perfectly clear that unless you want it to be underpowered, you don't assign it a cost relative to the original X-wing, but rather compare it to ships that are more efficient and effective choices--like the Z-95 and B-wing.

And the problem isn't that you're refusing to praise this second edition of X-wing. It's that you're going around saying things like "this second edition of X-wing" based on assumptions and fragmented leaks, and completely ignoring common sense and game balance issues.

thought exercise time!

Wedge [29]

hypothetical free boost (0)

thrusters (2)

hypothetical free roll droid (2)

predator (3)

[36]

so we'd get 1 more point for a less defensively capable soonts (half the agility, no focus stacking, no evade at all)

a less maneuverable soonts (needs greens for hypothetical free rolls), which would impact abuse of thrusters & ability to maneuver without spending action on an additional boost/getting a shot off

a far more action independent soonts (no stress needed, more health, more punch, and hypothetical b-roll occurs before manuevering) but one still highly vulnerable to control tech (Free roll action)

-difficult to kill with dice

-fast

-maneuverable

++punchy

+not-screwed-on-block

I still think the easiest solution is give a chardaan like negative cost to it for not using the torpedo or the astromech. Most likely the torpedo since that's hardly ever used on xwings.

Probably only -1 point to make it same cost as the scum version.

No More Chardaans!

Seriously all that did was made missile secondary weapons never usable again. Even when a good one like proton rockets came out still you just wouldn't use it because saving those 2 points was just so much better especially in the MOV game.

I mean if you want to make people throw away all their torpedo cards (might as well we already have to throw away our damage decks) then sure but otherwise a straight up negative point cost to remove a slot should not happen. Slots really don't add any points they just make it easier for you to spend more points.

Now upgrades that discount torpedoes say by 1 point would be better. EM makes it cheaper to double up on torpedoes but single torpedo slots ships don't have any cost reductions for their torpedo upgrades.

hmmm...agreed except for Jake

Jake makes those **** rockets sing

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And the problem isn't that you're refusing to praise this second edition of X-wing. It's that you're going around saying things like "this second edition of X-wing" based on assumptions and fragmented leaks, and completely ignoring common sense and game balance issues.

The factions are balanced pretty fine and core cards were still viable in the meta. But the Core set is removing all, forget your so called common sense the new core set is INVALIDATING all squadrons in competitive play unless you buy the new one based off of Disney's movie. Sure it makes business sense but that often conflicts with common sense, this could throw new players away rather than bring them in.

Wave 8 is bring new player in by using the ships from the modern shows compatible with existing models. September 4th is telling new player not to buy anything until Episode 7 is out.

The factions are balanced pretty fine and core cards were still viable in the meta. But the Core set is removing all, forget your so called common sense the new core set is INVALIDATING all squadrons in competitive play unless you buy the new one based off of Disney's movie. Sure it makes business sense but that often conflicts with common sense, this could throw new players away rather than bring them in.

Wave 8 is bring new player in by using the ships from the modern shows compatible with existing models. September 4th is telling new player not to buy anything until Episode 7 is out.

No, September 4th is telling us that a new product is on the way and we can add a couple of Episode VII ships to our existing fleets, possibly before the movie is even out. You can continue flying your old squads with the new upgrades, fly just the new ships, or mix both together. The information we have 100% confirms that the only thing being invalidated is the old damage deck, which was 3 years obsolete and needed to be put out of its misery, anyway.

I suggest doing your research before making wild statements.

The factions are balanced pretty fine and core cards were still viable in the meta. But the Core set is removing all, forget your so called common sense the new core set is INVALIDATING all squadrons in competitive play unless you buy the new one based off of Disney's movie. Sure it makes business sense but that often conflicts with common sense, this could throw new players away rather than bring them in.

Wave 8 is bring new player in by using the ships from the modern shows compatible with existing models. September 4th is telling new player not to buy anything until Episode 7 is out.

No, September 4th is telling us that a new product is on the way and we can add a couple of Episode VII ships to our existing fleets, possibly before the movie is even out. You can continue flying your old squads with the new upgrades, fly just the new ships, or mix both together. The information we have 100% confirms that the only thing being invalidated is the old damage deck, which was 3 years obsolete and needed to be put out of its misery, anyway.

I suggest doing your research before making wild statements.

This is not a wild statement, If you have a 1st edition core set and a collection soon you won't be able to play competitive unless you purchase an episode 7 core set. If you are a Scum and Villainy player well I guess you will just have to go out and buy more rebel and imperial models.

Now if they have options where you can update your existing core sets without having to pay the mouse then that would be fine, but so far after all my "research" I haven't found any such thing. That's not a wild statement also.

Oh and here is the T-65 X-wing fix.

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