We were having a discussion within the group the other day about Astartes shields following a particularly gruelling close quarter combat encounter, and after some checking, we were surprised to find that the supposedly abundant (or so I recall having read about it here and there in BL publications) boarding shield is missing from the DW books.

So the first question (mostly to TT players, I guess): Is it a retired 30k piece of equipment, or is it still in wide use in the 41st millenium?

If it's still available, how does it compare to the Combat and Storm Shields? The Lexicanum article (admittedly not the perfect source, but I didn't have time to pore over the Codices and FW publications) states it uses the same field generator as the Combat Shield, so it's weaker than the Storm Shield, but seeing equipped on the minis it appears to occupy one hand fully, so crunch-wise it would be inferior to both shields available in Core.

I have no problem fluffing out either a Combat or a Storm Shield as a Boarding Shield in my game, but if it is readily available and different from both, I want to house-rule something to have my players more freedom of choice. Also, my Techmarine is quite anal about these details, so all info would be greatly appreciated.

After a quick glance at the interwebs, it seems this item exists only in a few Horus Heresy novels and a Forge World rulebook written for it. Whether stuff like this finds use anywhere else thus always depends on the individual author, as it is not "generally accepted" wargear like, say, boltguns. After all, everyone sees the setting differently and 40k has no canon .

So, to answer your question: Should it be available in your game, and if so, how should it compare to the existing shields? You decide. As with almost all details of the setting, this a matter of personal interpretation.

However, if you want to follow the Forge World rules, you could try get an idea of how the FW team has written them to work in the tabletop, and compare these rules to GW's storm shields.

Hey, thanks for the information! The autism in me is not strong enough to start converting FW rules on something that inconsequential like this

No clue where might I have picked the idea up, because I'm not very well-versed in the HH books*, but my Techie is an avid reader of the series, so it's good to nail the little things too.

*it has something to do with knowing how it ends it also takes away the mystery of some events which IMHO should stay mysterious, but that's a different debate alltogether

The autism in me is not strong enough to start converting FW rules on something that inconsequential like this

Ah, if it makes the player lucky...

For what it's worth, it should be pretty easy to convert. I've been using the "rosetta stone" technique (as I like to call it) myself, just picking an item that exists in both sources, and then extracting a formula that can be applied to anything else I'd like to adopt.

it also takes away the mystery of some events which IMHO should stay mysterious, but that's a different debate alltogether

I feel ya.. I'm always up for that sort of debate, though - it's interesting how different people's preferences and perceptions are when it comes to the setting.

I feel ya.. I'm always up for that sort of debate, though - it's interesting how different people's preferences and perceptions are when it comes to the setting.

I always prefer mystery and ambiguity as a general rule, especially if it's about world-changing events on such a scale. From a sort-of-mechanical viewpoint it gives me more leeway as a GM with my stories, but generally it's more about how the pieces fit together in your head. Anything breaking the ever-important suspension of disbelief (in my case, if I may plug that in, see my quite strong opinion on awful Dog Latin ) is detrimental to the enjoyment of all, and the more specific you get, the less room you leave for the readers' interpretation.

Take Dark Angels as an example. If one lets go of the sheer idiocy of the whole Fallen premise (sorry, DA players ), it is one of the better-written mysteries of the whole 40k setting, with real psychological depth and conflicts. In turn, that is only possible because it's unclear who is right - was the Lion a traitor? A pragmatic opportunist? A loyalist saint? A psychologically broken figure, crippled by inner darkness and constant suspicion? Any and all is possible, that's why it's fascinating to read about or play out DA lore. Since there's no fixed event, no-one is right right, so one has to grab different handholds and really delve deep into the psyche of the character, be it Cypher, Asmodai, Sapphon or your own DW marine.

Now if the next HH book tells you a sequence of those events, you can state a million times that there's no canon , it will still inevitably colour the perception of the community, and a mysterious Fallen, either naïve or equally possibly a master manipulator, who is thus far a well-written antagonist, will come across as plain right or plain wrong, or, at best, misguided.

There are millions of similar events, where the Primarchs, the pinnacles of humanity, come across as ignorant idiots (seriously, taking the babbling of suspicious xenos psykers at face value, Alpharius?), and I already have a player in my group, a fan of the HH series, blurting out direct quotes from the Primarchs themselves at the most inappropriate of moments (luckily OOC, but still).

/rant - 30k has the possibility to be fun, but leave the cataclysmic events alone, or show them from the angle of a more marginal character.

There are millions of similar events, where the Primarchs, the pinnacles of humanity, come across as ignorant idiots (seriously, taking the babbling of suspicious xenos psykers at face value, Alpharius?), and I already have a player in my group, a fan of the HH series, blurting out direct quotes from the Primarchs themselves at the most inappropriate of moments (luckily OOC, but still).

Yeah that whole Cabal thing didn't work for me either (Dammit Dan!) especiallysince they shouldn't know about the Emperors plans to stop chaos. He's been constantly saying 3 things: No AI's! Kill the xenos! and there's nothing to see in the warp folks!

So Alpahius' responce to the Cabal should have been "BOOM! headshot." Unless Alpharius actualy figured out what the Emperors goal was all along and....

Luckily the Alpa legion get better. In the later books they shove one of the Kabal out an airlock. So In my headcanon they are playing for themselves from that point on.

How does one blurt out primarch quotes at inapropriate times?

(Every time is apropriate to hear the divine words of Lorgar Aurelian! )

Mike: Hey joe, we are ordering pizza! Do you want peperoni on it?"

Joe: "I can't say."

Mike: "Oh not this again. Joe please! Pizza, peperoni yes or no?"

Joe: "Blood for the blood god!"

Mike: "Sod it. Anchovis it is."

How does one blurt out primarch quotes at inapropriate times?

(Every time is apropriate to hear the divine words of Lorgar Aurelian! )

Mike: Hey joe, we are ordering pizza! Do you want peperoni on it?"

Joe: "I can't say."

Mike: "Oh not this again. Joe please! Pizza, peperoni yes or no?"

Joe: "Blood for the blood god!"

Mike: "Sod it. Anchovis it is."

I wish it were like this, it'd be funny

Sadly it takes the form of lengthy lectures about the origins or background of present-day in-universe stuff, so it's not the words of the divine Lorgar, it's the words on divine Lorgar

GM: [Detailed in-game description of Ecclesiarchy rituals, followed by interaction with a high-ranking member, who hints that he finds the practices of the Marines sort-of-heretic. Conflict with Kill-Team starts to brew. GM is happy.]

Joe: [spontaneous outburst on the irony of the Ecclesiarchy following practices and theology established by Lorgar. Explanation at length on Lorgar's actions, motivations and mental state during and after the decision to venerate the Emperor as god. Invocation of at least half a dozen lesser known supporting characters during these events, leaving everyone dumbfounded. A number of players leave to smoke.]

after 10 minutes or so...

GM: Anyway, where were we? [Process to build atmosphere and tension has to start again from scratch, with a generous amount of forced improvisation to avoid repetition. GM tries to hide frustration.]

(Every time is apropriate to hear the divine words of Lorgar Aurelian! )

Truer words have never been spoken. Still, it doesn't help how I see the HH line

Joe: [spontaneous outburst on the irony of the Ecclesiarchy following practices and theology established by Lorgar.

Urgh. You're lucky I'm not in your group; I'd slap that guy so hard with my copy of the 2E Codex SoB.

Seriously, it's one thing when sources depict contradicting information, but when a perceived 95% of the fandom isn't even aware that GW's own material says something different, it's incredibly frustrating for someone who is accustomed to the older non-novel material.

But yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. It's not just that the HH stories present such a ... controversial and over-the-top interpretation of events, but that so many people have come to take it as gospel. It was better when it was all myths and legends, leaving everyone to come up with their own theories and actually causing people to think for themselves.

On a sidenote, not sure if you've seen my heretical take on that era ...

(that "True Story" thread is a rather funny idea, btw -- shame it doesn't seem to have caught on)

Pfft. I would have just told him to shut up with that out of character exposition talk . I mean seriously, Unless the dude is playing Erebus of Kor Pharon himself (and since this is DW and not BC the odds are very unliky ) there is NO way he can know that the Imperial religion is based on Lorgar's Lectatio divinatus (or whatever that book was called)

The knowledge of that is either toroughly expunged by (at least) BOTH the Inquisition and the ecclesiarchy and/or completly erased by the passage of millenia. And that is even IF people knew about it in the first place. It's been 10.000 years since then! I think 90% off all imperials who know about the Heresy think Horus was the first traitor.

I mean people began using that manuscript in clandestine religious meetings during the Horus Heresy! The powers that be had bigger fish to fry. So after the heresy ended and evrything was still pretty much in turmoil there was this fledging religion that very few (if any at all) could conect back to Lorgars magnus opus.

Also the way that book was huriedly copied on low quality presses, probaly with whole sections missing and anotations and people making stuff up, that I wonder just how much "the first official holy book of the Ecclesiarchy" still resembles Lorgars work. My guess is 10% Lorgar. 60% lost in tyranslation/printing/turmoil and 30% addition nonesense by other people.

( And that's not counting the AL making their own redactions to it: yes In my headcanon the Alpha Legion is involved in everything...everythaaaang!)

So In short the Guy's character cannot possibly know the Ecclesiarchic worship is based on the writings of Lorgar.

Oh and i would have slapped him with my copy of Slaves to darkness .

Alternatively, you could just go with the codex story, which happens to debunk that whole idea anyways.

Alternatively, you could just go with the codex story, which happens to debunk that whole idea anyways.

Which story? Where? I need weapons to fight back, dammit!

Anyway, the guy is a good friend of mine, and I'm trying to slowly wean him off of this habit, but still, it's frustrating.

Urgh. You're lucky I'm not in your group; I'd slap that guy so hard with my copy of the 2E Codex SoB.

Oh and i would have slapped him with my copy of Slaves to darkness .

I feel it is always harder to accept the changes made to established elements in the universe if they happened after one immersed himself and internalised the then-available knowledge. I started with 40k in the mid-2000s, so I hate Horus Heresy books, Newcrons and the name " Astra Militarum " with the power of a thousand burning suns, but I'm not nearly as agitated about, say, GW dropping the Sq

I feel it is always harder to accept the changes made to established elements in the universe if they happened after one immersed himself and internalised the then-available knowledge. I started with 40k in the mid-2000s, so I hate Horus Heresy books, Newcrons and the name " Astra Militarum " with the power of a thousand burning suns, but I'm not nearly as agitated about, say, GW dropping the Sq

Well that kinda makes sense really.

You can say "squats" here, you won't get banned. (grmbl bloody GW forums grrrr.)

I also hate newcrons (or as I call them: Mumraaaa! in spaaaace!) and astra militarum to.

Bloody AM! It's the Imperial army errr... Imperial Guard, dammit! Why do these Guy's keep changing their name every ten years? Astra militarum... That doesn't even translate into imperial guard! It more or less means "star army". And all that just becuz GW wants to copyright everythaaang.

I'm kinda bummed that the squats are gone, altough they realy were space dwarfs. Still no reason to kill off a whole faction. What really ticked me off is that they killed of the squats for being to close to their warhammer fantasy counterpart...only to replace them with space dark elves!

So if it was up to me i'd bring the squats back. Then again if it was up to me, we'd also have Eldar exodites and a fully playable Jokaero faction.

You can say "squats" here, you won't get banned. (grmbl bloody GW forums grrrr.)

Sorry. Old habits. You don't say Macbeth on a stage, you don't mention any space dwarfs, certainly not by name, and you don't say "Candlejack" out lou-

[hours later, crawling back in:]

Bloody AM! It's the Imperial army errr... Imperial Guard, dammit! Why do these Guy's keep changing their name every ten years? Astra militarum... That doesn't even translate into imperial guard! It more or less means "star army".

It doesn't even mean that, it means more or less Stars of martial [somethings] - the second word is an incorrect plural adjective, not really latching onto anything. Aaaaaaaaargh.

But, you know, as much as we talk about canon and its details (and this ties nicely into Lynata's statement on how " there's no canon "), the important notion is the Your Dudes one. 40k is not about the Emperor, or Mankind, or the Great Game of the Chaos Gods, or, dunno, the Greater Good or Lord Dante; it's about your very own ragged (or glorious) tabletop army or RPG Kill-Team. It popped into my mind as we were talking about Cpt. Tycho, who, from being a playtester's special character, actually ascended to a canonised state, but there are countless other examples (Adept Castus Grendel, anyone?). I tend to lose sight of this ever so often, while trying to source the colour of Marneus Calgar's underpants because I think knowing it would facilitate my players' immersion in one of my games*

*please note I never actually tried to source the colour of Calgar's underpants, nor I intend to do so, ever. Just sayin'

It's brown. Just incase the unthinkable happens.

See this is why I actualy like the HH stuff, they took the Ultras who could be summed up in 4 words (Blue. Vanilla. Tyranid veterans.) and (retroactivly) made 'em this crazy prepared strategists who are like a mix between Batman and Tsun Tzu.

Ofcourse roboute was still an idiot who didn't stop to think why a visiting squad of ultras hadn't and refused to remove their helmets. And he almost got iced by the AL for that oversight. (HA! )

This seems as good a place as any to ask* what does your personal (head)canon look like?

* to lazy to make a new thread

We're playing merry hell with thread coherency, but if that's the price of having a little life in here, I'm willing to pay it.

As for headcanon - I don't think I have any. Not a coherent, all-encompassing one at any rate. I don't really think about what the Emperor might have actually wanted, or what kind of endgame might Chaos as a faction have in mind - I'm generally more focussed on smaller-scale, self-contained stories than on events of a world-changing magnitude, because there's less room for error in the first category. In fact, I'm willing to forgive a lot if I sense it falls under the jurisdiction of the Rule of Cool. My main concern is having powerful stories and narrative elements around as a source of enjoyment, and, as a corollary to that, a coherent continuity, because unexplained changes break my immersion. As an example: new wargear introduced as a result of experimenting or discovering a new STC design is a-okay, new wargear handwaved in by saying "we always had those, dummy, why didn't you notice before" is just plain wrong .*

*I admit I don't really like Centurion Squads either. Here, I said it. They're sort of cool, but dammit, this is not how you do it. And I know there was an STC fragment thrown in, but they're hinted to be in service for a long time. They were kept up in the attics of hundreds of Fortress-Monasteries across the Galaxy, I s'ppose.

Mind you, this doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading about or I'm not inspired by well thought-out theories of fellow fans - in fact, quite the contrary. So, what's your take?

I have two, one normal (well for me anyway) and one in wich everything is conected to the Alpha Legion, that's just for ***** and giggles.

There are probaly still some squats about I might have retconned them as having their worlds being stuck behind a massive warpstorm due to the actions of the Huron Blackheart. Rather than them having been nommed by the 'nids. (Makes sense with the Squat homeworlds being near the Maelstrom.) The Astral Claws wear their vintage black and orange armor rather then the blue gold and silver one.

The necrons are the oldcron variety. And what we have seen so far is just the workers paving the way. Their dedicated combat forces are yet to awaken.

Angron killed Kal Draigo (Retconned from early idea of having him killed by a Deamon princess called Mary Sue.) The AL are in it for themselves and nobody has a clue what their goal is.

The heresy happend more or less like it said in the books, except there are no perpetuals. The Emperor's origin from RoC Lost and the Damned is correct. The Sensei do exist in the 41st milenium.

The Ecclesiarchic faith IS based on the scriptures of Lorgar but hardly a soul in the universe that knows that. The Dawn blade is a chaos weapon. The Imperial guard is called the imperial guard. Cadia is

a giant warzone due to failbaddon's last attempt at a black crusade.

Creed is NOT an AL genius sent to command Cadia and one up Tzeentch.

Logar Grimnar does NOT ride an antigrav sleigh pulled by wolves!

The legion of the damned is NOT the firehawks. (Despite this being stated in the canon. I just like them better if they are totaly mysterious/ spirits of repentant traitors)

Eldar and Dark Eldar DON'Tally with each other at the drop of a hat.

The 'nid Hive mind is NOT a C'tan! Atleast not one from this galaxy They are NOT fleeing from something worse . That's what the Zoats are for. (Those are some fan theories)

The warhammer world IS a world in the same galaxy as the imperium sepearted by a permanent warp storm. The events from the Dark Future books also happend on the pre-unification Terra.

And for the rest it's pretty much standard.

I also have a bunch of Homebrew SM chapters that i'll not bore you with in this post.

Which story? Where? I need weapons to fight back, dammit!

Ah, it's not much, but the background of the Ecclesiarchy makes it pretty clear that (a) it was founded by a high-ranking Terran military commander and (b) that its modern day teachings are a wild amalgamation of a thousand different cults.

The former makes it very unlikely that the works of an arch-traitor lend inspiration to the boss (unless you assume that Fatidicus was, for some crazy reason, a traitor himself), and the latter proves that there was no single source from which the modern day Ministorum would derive its doctrine. Not to mention that IF Lorgar had written anything, it'd certainly be subject to Post-Heresy Inquisitorial purges.

Oh, and as icing on the cake, Index Astartes makes it clear that the Emperor didn't care one iota about religion. He just considered it a "waste of time", but he certainly didn't issue some atheistic "Imperial Truth" law that (PLOT HOLE WARNING) ignores the existence of the Cult Mechanicus.

Yep, that's only human. You've grown to like the franchise because you obviously like the setting, and then they go and change things!

It's the same with Battletech, although that one actually has a solid continuity -- it's just that portions of fans always complain when the story moves on in a different way than they liked.

I also hate newcrons (or as I call them: Mumraaaa! in spaaaace!) and astra militarum to.

Bloody AM! It's the Imperial army errr... Imperial Guard, dammit! Why do these Guy's keep changing their name every ten years? Astra militarum... That doesn't even translate into imperial guard! It more or less means "star army". And all that just becuz GW wants to copyright everythaaang.

I'm kinda bummed that the squats are gone, altough they realy were space dwarfs. Still no reason to kill off a whole faction.

I actually like "Astra Militarum" as a byname, though they'll always be Imperial Guard to me first and foremost.

I simply treat that name similar to how the Space Marines are the Adeptus Astartes. Which makes just as much sense if you try to translate it.

Oh, and Squats are mentioned in the 6th edition TT rulebook as a strain of recognised Abhumans.

See this is why I actualy like the HH stuff, they took the Ultras who could be summed up in 4 words (Blue. Vanilla. Tyranid veterans.) and (retroactivly) made 'em this crazy prepared strategists who are like a mix between Batman and Tsun Tzu.

Honestly, the Ultras were always interesting -- it's just that a lot of people aren't aware of a whole chunk of their full background, because GW really enjoyed segregating it with stuff like White Dwarf articles. It's the primary reason for why I began to collect specific issues, especially when it comes to topics where there is precious little information on the whole (like SoB, grr).

But then again, I've seen plenty of Marine fans who aren't even aware of what their own codex says, so ...

As for my headcanon, I guess my headcanon is that I tend to treat GW studio material as the basis for my interpretation! However, with the newer books, GW started to retcon various things and make them less cool, so I've begun to question my commitment to this stance...

I've also added bits and pieces of various licensed products to my vision of the 41st millennium, though. From James Swallow's idea of the Chaplet Ecclesiasticus being a concealed suicide dagger, to Dark Heresy's idea of Sororitas Novices on "detached duty" to the Inquisition, or even their equipment (which my headcanon refined and expanded upon, ultimately even resulting in commissioned artworks).

Oh, and I fully understand your pain in regards to the retroactive Centurion inclusion, musungu! I kind of like the suits, but the description made it way too strange that they weren't there before. On the other hand, it would have been just as weird if the studio kept adding new models that somehow were all invented in 999.M41.

Ideally, they should just not invent any new models at all, but I guess a stagnant setting like 40k is not as good for selling more miniatures.

I admit I was toying with the idea of a Sororitas version of the Centurion, though. I'd have called them Nephilim and made them a sort of "mirror" to the Seraphim -- basically, deep-striking melee shock troops as opposed to jetpack-jumping ranged combat specialists. True to the original meaning of the term, they'd be "giants" (about 8-9 feet tall), and come equipped with a large heater shield on the left arm, whilst the right arm would host a retracting power lance in the palm, as well as a trio of miniature mine launchers with a delayed charge on the knuckles. Box your opponent to get the mines stuck in their body, retract arm, watch fireworks. Shamelessly stolen from Bubblegum Crisis.

I actually like "Astra Militarum" as a byname, though they'll always be Imperial Guard to me first and foremost.

I simply treat that name similar to how the Space Marines are the Adeptus Astartes. Which makes just as much sense if you try to translate it.

That is certainly the mature, adult-like approach You see, when they make up a word, like Astartes, I can fly with that, but when it resembles something existing, I instinctively and automatically focus on it, trying to understand the meaning, and when it turns out that nope, it's nothing, I just get angry because I unintentionally wasted time and energy trying to decipher gibberish. Either that, or I don't really pay attention, but still the red lamps and alarms go off in my head, warning me that something is off . It was pretty much the same with faux-German parts in Japanese pop culture - they use it with some regularity, but almost always badly, and if you don't speak it, it's just background noise, but when you do, it's a bit annoying (I do wonder whether it's the same for you, Lynata - I seem to remember your mother tongue is German, right?). The only part where High Gothic is worse is that I can usually spot German gibberish for what it is quite quickly, but I don't really interact with anything Latin since more than ten years, so I have to dust off the mental grammar rulebook, go through the declination and conjugation tables in my head and then realise it was all for nothing.

It's like a small and annoying curse - I didn't ask for my awesome skill of partially understanding simpler Latin texts in my elitist hubris, it was thrust upon me by virtue of being a compulsory class Ultimately I try not to think about Astra Militarum too much, in the hope that after a while it will fade into the background, just like the majority of older, established High Gothic Faux-Latin. Except for the Raven Guard's motto, I'd sooner disband the team than to allow anyone saying that out loud

And I solemnly promise that from now on I'll try to keep my bitching and whining about High Gothic in check. I don't usually get so easily ticked off by something this unimportant - sorry, folks.

Honestly, the Ultras were always interesting -- it's just that a lot of people aren't aware of a whole chunk of their full background, because GW really enjoyed segregating it with stuff like White Dwarf articles. It's the primary reason for why I began to collect specific issues, especially when it comes to topics where there is precious little information on the whole (like SoB, grr).

But then again, I've seen plenty of Marine fans who aren't even aware of what their own codex says, so ...

Graeco-Roman Ultrasmurfs were always cool, it's a bit of a shame that this got axed. I never had a problem with the whole Fantasy Counterpart Culture approach in 40k. I feel people went a bit overboard with the Matt Ward and Ultrasmurfs movie hating.

Creed is NOT an AL genius sent to command Cadia and one up Tzeentch.

Awww, why? His TT ability to infiltrate everything up to Scout Titans is the source of many good stories, I quite like that I'm on board with Cadia taking a major hit, but Creed's just too funny to discard.

And any and all AL conspiracy theory is fun if thought out well. I kind of like the idea of a sort-of-loyalist endgame, but I'm just as satisfied with them representing the tendency of Chaos to rip apart itself.

As for Logan, I do have a sort of headcanon I feel I share with the majority of 40k fans, where the Wolves don't have such an unhealthy fixation on wolfing their wolfy wolves. There is, of course, the part where a lot of their titles and whatnot are just exonyms, like how Wolf Lord is Jarl in Fenrisian, but I draw the line at wolf riders and Santa's Super (Antigrav) Sleigh.

I also have a bunch of Homebrew SM chapters that i'll not bore you with in this post.

You can tell about them in some other post, then I'm a fan of including little shout-outs in my games to entertain myself. I once had a Daemon named after Visitor Q (especially after he told me about the movie - brrrrrr), and certain /tg/ Chapters also made a few appearance.

You see, when they make up a word, like Astartes, I can fly with that [...]

I guess you'd call it unlucky that I've read about certain ancient Egyptian deities, then.

It was pretty much the same with faux-German parts in Japanese pop culture - they use it with some regularity, but almost always badly, and if you don't speak it, it's just background noise, but when you do, it's a bit annoying (I do wonder whether it's the same for you, Lynata - I seem to remember your mother tongue is German, right?).

Ouphhh... yes. Panzerkunst in Battle Angel Alita, etc.

I guess I've just turned out to be rather forgiving in this sense, perhaps even because of, rather than in spite of constantly being subjected to this practice in various anime and manga. And I guess that helps me with accepting GW's Dog Latin as well, especially if you interpret it like a futurespace amalgamation of Latin and English (which, in a roundabout out-of-universe way, it actually is) rather than an evolution of Latin alone. So that "Astra Militarum" = Military of the Stars.

(and as far as the Japanese are concerned, ever since Battletech we've begun paying them back )

I feel people went a bit overboard with the Matt Ward and Ultrasmurfs movie hating.

Typical internet echo chamber, I'm afraid. There's a lot of hate to go around these days.

I found Mr. Ward's writing to be a little too OTT for my taste, and the movie was pretty bland -- but I still enjoyed reading and watching both. Not something I'd consume again, but also not something I'd bash. Alas, these days things either have to be amazing or utter failure, no in-betweens! (-> also see user ratings in computer games)

Okay, okay. Not that I don't feel a need to bash some few select products of the 40k line .. but of course I have good reason to do so!

As for Logan, I do have a sort of headcanon I feel I share with the majority of 40k fans, where the Wolves don't have such an unhealthy fixation on wolfing their wolfy wolves. There is, of course, the part where a lot of their titles and whatnot are just exonyms, like how Wolf Lord is Jarl in Fenrisian, but I draw the line at wolf riders and Santa's Super (Antigrav) Sleigh.

By now, I'd actually consider the Space Wolves unsalvageable -- but not because of the silly names, and I have to say, I really like the idea about them just being translations.

It's a shame how various writers pulled them through the mincer over the years (fun fact, a meat grinder in German is a Fleisch wolf ), as there was a time I really liked the prospect of Space Vikings. Alas, ultimately that was not how they were made to be .. as much as I still like their paintjobs.

I guess you'd call it unlucky that I've read about certain ancient Egyptian deities, then.

All right, all right, Ishtar and stuff, but still, it's a loanword in Latin, so if it's behaving a bit weird, it's not surprising

I guess I've just turned out to be rather forgiving in this sense, perhaps even because of, rather than in spite of constantly being subjected to this practice in various anime and manga. And I guess that helps me with accepting GW's Dog Latin as well, especially if you interpret it like a futurespace amalgamation of Latin and English (which, in a roundabout out-of-universe way, it actually is) rather than an evolution of Latin alone. So that "Astra Militarum" = Military of the Stars.

The problem is I started to read the novels of the late Mr. Pratchett much earlier than 40k codices, and he does a brilliant job with Dog Latin - it's accurate, funny, smart, it laughs at itself and it doesn't look out of place anywhere. Guess my expectations are too high after he raised the bar.

My mother tongue doesn't get a similar treatment, so it's harder to relate - Hungarian is not plugged in very often in western pop culture, the most it gets is the occasional Hollywood baddie when they can't find a Russian or Urdu speaker around, and Edward James Olmos in Blade Runner, but he cusses, and that appeals to the inner 12-year-old

My dad has the habit of littering his speech with German sayings and expressions, and when I was a small kid, he always jokingly finished the German parts with "as the educated Arab would say". Took me a while to figure out that the Arab is speaking German because he's educated (hey, I was in pre-school), but it appears that this instilled the view in me that speaking a language has to be done in an educated way as it is part of a certain cultural standard

By now, I'd actually consider the Space Wolves unsalvageable

I'm curious - why is that? What was the straw that broke the camel's back?

My dad has the habit of littering his speech with German sayings and expressions, and when I was a small kid, he always jokingly finished the German parts with "as the educated Arab would say". Took me a while to figure out that the Arab is speaking German because he's educated

I like that. Witty.

I'm curious - why is that? What was the straw that broke the camel's back?

I don't think I can nail it down to any single event, but rather a long chain of (mis-)treatments by various authors, though I'm sure they thought they would do them a service rather than a dis service. Every single story that focused on the Space Wolves being oh-so-special and rebellious made them less and less realistic in an otherwise strictly enforced environment. Certainly, Space Marine Chapters are given a considerable amount of leeway, but there are still lines you do not cross.

Unless you are a Space Wolf.

This, in addition to various outright ridiculous feats of bolter pornography (like a couple hundred SW repelling millions of Guardsmen over a five-year siege, apparently conjuring their ammunition out of thin air just like they do with their Fleets of Battle Barges ), just turned them into the caricature. From personal experience with an admittedly limited number of tales: whenever you read a Space Wolf story, you can rest assured that you're about to read about a small troupe of invisible Supermen saving the day whilst flipping The System off.

Too powerful to fit in with an otherwise gritty setting, and too special to retain any sort of narrative credibility. 40k's very own Mary Sue.

Last but not least, every writer seems to have their very own idea of what the Space Wolves actually should be. To quote a fellow fan: "Their fluff is confused and atrocious. They don't know whether or not they want to be a serious "GRIMDARK" army of space vikings, werewolves, lighthearted space tricksters, the Emperor's Executioners, or rough customers with a heart of gold, and they come off just...awful."

It's really sad because if they had just stayed Space Vikings alone and toned down their childish rebellious attitude as well as their ridiculous power level just a bit, they'd easily be one of the coolest armies in the franchise. A lot of wasted potential, and unfortunately a good example of the old saying "too many cooks spoil the broth".

I guess you'd call it unlucky that I've read about certain ancient Egyptian deities, then.

All right, all right, Ishtar and stuff, but still, it's a loanword in Latin, so if it's behaving a bit weird, it's not surprising

What? Space marines can't use the power of love? The whole Ishtar godess of love, war and sex (love is a battlefield!)thing does make you realise the Emperor's Children got it right

The problem is I started to read the novels of the late Mr. Pratchett much earlier than 40k codices, and he does a brilliant job with Dog Latin - it's accurate, funny, smart, it laughs at itself and it doesn't look out of place anywhere. Guess my expectations are too high after he raised the bar.

Not just latin, the Whole seamstress guild being all prostitutes becomes even better in Dutch when translated as "naaister gilde" and "naaien" is used in dialect as another word for f*cking.

By now, I'd actually consider the Space Wolves unsalvageable

I'm curious - why is that? What was the straw that broke the camel's back?

They do ramp up the ****** level in the HH novels.

Space wolf: "We're not space wolves! We're the Vla Fenrika! B*tch!"

Also them no using a khorne berzerker dreadnought?

Sigh.

This, in addition to various outright ridiculous feats of bolter pornography (like a couple hundred SW repelling millions of Guardsmen over a five-year siege, apparently conjuring their ammunition out of thin air just like they do with their Fleets of Battle Barges ), just turned them into the caricature. From personal experience with an admittedly limited number of tales: whenever you read a Space Wolf story, you can rest assured that you're about to read about a small troupe of invisible Supermen saving the day whilst flipping The System off.

Too powerful to fit in with an otherwise gritty setting, and too special to retain any sort of narrative credibility. 40k's very own Mary Sue.

I see your point. I'm not especially bothered by bolter porn - it has its time and place, but I, too, am tired by how basically all Space Wolves stories have the same narrative: Wolf faced by overwhelming odds. Wolf still charges the hell in (or does some similarly stupid, impulsive and boderline suicidal act). Wolf still comes out on top, against all odds, either by unrealistic luck or by unrealistic abilities. It's like a shonen manga or a Saturday morning cartoon for kiddies. No lessons ever learned, not character development, nothing.

Still, playing a Wolf in Deathwatch can be a blast if the player sticks to one and only one of the above offered interpretations.

"naaister gilde"

Sweet mother, naaister gilde ... :D That's f---ing golden. Ik heb het nog niet gehoord, maar dit is werkelijk briljant. :D Hats off to the translator.

love is a battlefield!

You're on a roll today, aren't you?

It's like a shonen manga or a Saturday morning cartoon for kiddies. No lessons ever learned, not character development, nothing.

Yes! That's a perfect summary, I guess.