Motti + Advanced projectors

a mere 26 health to chew through

(**** thing is STUPID expensive though, that's only 26 points less than two VSDs. Which isn't bad, because now we know that the VSD won't be displaced. Just makes me want to see all the new cards in Wave 2 even more...)

3x Deucestars + Motti, + 2x Advanced Projectors runs you 396.

That's 42 Base hull, and at least 6/9/12 extra in the form of one side of shields down per ship to get to that hull. AP ships give you 12 per, so thats uh 42+24+2=68 MINIMUM damage dealt in 6 rounds to kill this entire list. Does not include repairs which can give back 2-3 shields or 1-2 hull per turn.

Motti + Advanced projectors

a mere 26 health to chew through

(**** thing is STUPID expensive though, that's only 26 points less than two VSDs. Which isn't bad, because now we know that the VSD won't be displaced. Just makes me want to see all the new cards in Wave 2 even more...)

3x Deucestars + Motti, + 2x Advanced Projectors runs you 396.

That's 42 Base hull, and at least 6/9/12 extra in the form of one side of shields down per ship to get to that hull. AP ships give you 12 per, so thats uh 42+24+2=68 MINIMUM damage dealt in 6 rounds to kill this entire list. Does not include repairs which can give back 2-3 shields or 1-2 hull per turn.

A triple ISD, Motti, no squadrons, sprinkle upgrades to taste lockbox build seem like it will be Armada's Fat/Super Han/Chewie/Dash build. Almost impossible to kill, and great in timed games.

Hmmm if the ISD 2 is 120 I expect the 1 to be a bit over 100 at most.

@Atomic- if you playtested are not under an NDA?

Motti + Advanced projectors

a mere 26 health to chew through

(**** thing is STUPID expensive though, that's only 26 points less than two VSDs. Which isn't bad, because now we know that the VSD won't be displaced. Just makes me want to see all the new cards in Wave 2 even more...)

3x Deucestars + Motti, + 2x Advanced Projectors runs you 396.

That's 42 Base hull, and at least 6/9/12 extra in the form of one side of shields down per ship to get to that hull. AP ships give you 12 per, so thats uh 42+24+2=68 MINIMUM damage dealt in 6 rounds to kill this entire list. Does not include repairs which can give back 2-3 shields or 1-2 hull per turn.

And this is why I walked away from Armada play testing. No one seemed particularly concerned with the triple ISD+Motti no squadrons, sprinkle upgrades to taste lockbox build I was warning everyone about.

probably because it isn't terribly concerning

sure, it seems intimidating but we're dealing with 400 points worth of crap concentrating fire on a fat ass. it has to be chunky, or it'll go down in flames in one round (and that's simply unacceptable)

400 points is 8 CR-90as with MM (with 18 points left over). In a very basic model (relying heavily on the range of the red dice + the size of the ISD base), that's 3 (cf command) * 8 = 24 red dice running into an ISD at a bare minimum (i.e, not addressing double arcs versus fat base size). How many rounds before it goes down? 2? 3?

of course, that's overly simplistic and not doing justice to either the ISD's ridiculous front arc or the CR-90As double arc for a potential 6 total dice each (both ships at medium range ofc)

Motti + Advanced projectors

a mere 26 health to chew through

(**** thing is STUPID expensive though, that's only 26 points less than two VSDs. Which isn't bad, because now we know that the VSD won't be displaced. Just makes me want to see all the new cards in Wave 2 even more...)

3x Deucestars + Motti, + 2x Advanced Projectors runs you 396.

That's 42 Base hull, and at least 6/9/12 extra in the form of one side of shields down per ship to get to that hull. AP ships give you 12 per, so thats uh 42+24+2=68 MINIMUM damage dealt in 6 rounds to kill this entire list. Does not include repairs which can give back 2-3 shields or 1-2 hull per turn.

And this is why I walked away from Armada play testing. No one seemed particularly concerned with the triple ISD+Motti no squadrons, sprinkle upgrades to taste lockbox build I was warning everyone about.

probably because it isn't terribly concerning

sure, it seems intimidating but we're dealing with 400 points worth of crap concentrating fire on a fat ass. it has to be chunky, or it'll go down in flames in one round (and that's simply unacceptable)

400 points is 8 CR-90as with MM (with 18 points left over). In a very basic model (relying heavily on the range of the red dice + the size of the ISD base), that's 3 (cf command) * 8 = 24 red dice running into an ISD at a bare minimum (i.e, not addressing double arcs versus fat base size). How many rounds before it goes down? 2? 3?

of course, that's overly simplistic and not doing justice to either the ISD's ridiculous front arc or the CR-90As double arc for a potential 6 total dice each (both ships at medium range ofc)

Overly simplistic is the operative description of your argument. You can't just add up dice and call it a day.

You are creating the ideal situation for the corvette spam list. Due to obstruction, collision damage, and having to spend commands/tokens on speed/maneuver maintenance, you will almost never pull off a maximal attack with a horde of ships. What is actually going to happen is that the corvettes are going to be continually destroyed, continually draining the attack power of the spam list while the ISD continually engineers to regain shields/HP. The ISD can also move at speed 3, which is no small thing. Now IT can hit and run on you, but with much greater ferocity than a CR90.

Do I feel like a broken record or what. A ISD is well over range 1 wide and long. That means it can overlap several obstacles at once. It will block shots, have its shots blocked and be a brickshite house to move and kill.

An ISD is only as defensively strong as a Guppy. Share it has 5 more hull but by the time I get to the hull it will die in a turn.

An ISD is only as defensively strong as a Guppy. Share it has 5 more hull but by the time I get to the hull it will die in a turn.

8 more hull with Motti. On something that isn't a punching bag. It hits back. And Engineers.

Also, killing an ISD is going to be doable with the right builds. For some builds, however, fighting 3 ISD+Motti is going to be impossible. That's the issue, build restriction.

an ISD is absolutely a punching bag in certain situations

120 points is absolutely unacceptable for the dice it fires out of every arc except the front, even if they are red and blues

You are again focusing only on idealized behavior. Don't forget that it's not just your whole list vs 1 ISD. What I'm suggesting is that there will be be an analog of X-Wing's PWT, unkillable large base ship meta, which gives rise to a Rock Paper Scissors effect. I sure do hope you guys prove me wrong. I would love nothing more. I don't want Armada to fall into that same rut.

Aw yes, dissension and chaos. The seed i have sown hath born such promising fruit.

Huehuehue

considering the ISD has...arcs, it already can't be the equivalent to the X-wing PWT

and sure, it's not your whole list versus 1 ISD (it's versus 3 in this case), but the reason I'm leaning towards simplistic scenarios is because the ISD is the ship at the highest disadvantage when it comes to coordinating with 2 other ISDs ito positioning. Fat asses + nav tool = oh boy, there will be problems.

the fear coming from the ISD is predicated on some very optimistic flying from the ISDs themselves. Speed 3 is quite swanky, but these guys aren't Afmk2s with medium bases and two powerful arcs that fire off when even the ship isn't directly facing its target. The ISD has one worthwhile arc, and its right in the front. The poor fat ass has to account its obesity, its friends' obesity, and then its facing both i.t.o firing and future maneuvers. These things will not be easy to coordinate, definitely not as easy as the broad-side rebels and definitely not with scary **** (such as skreed, ACM, GSDs) breathing down its incredibly long neck.

not to say the ISD won't be worthwhile, just that the spam build probably won't be nearly as feasible as omg 26 health!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! would suggest

worst case scenario: motti w/ 3 ISDs gets countered by motti w/5 VSDs

Well, your experience with flying an ISD trumps mine, so I guess you must be right

Also, the whole "just use build X to counter build Y" is exactly what I talked about with X-Wing's meta. I personally enjoy when my decisions made on the table matter more than the decisions made off the table. I don't want to see Armada become glorified Rock Paper Scissors in the way that X-Wing became. I think I already said this.

Well, your experience with flying an ISD trumps mine, so I guess you must be right

must be, since I definitely didn't give up on them

3 ISD + Motti is scary on paper. In reality it will probably work something to similar to how 3 VSD's work currently. Really really effective if you march straight into the teeth of them, lackluster when you do literally anything else.

I hope both of you guys are right.

3 isd's with mottie and 2 advanced projectors doesn't seem too bad. They can only realistically regen 2 shields a turn because they don't have a way to get tokens besides dials, and that is only 6 attacks in a turn. They will always lose to positioning, you can fit 3-4 b-wings on your front AND can't move fast enough to shake them, AND your base is so wide that you can't concentrate fire on any single target. Maybe on a joust, but that would be like having your opponents try to broadside with a neb. It doesn't happen.

In short, I see 3 ISD's and motti be a fad, a list that people will use at the beginning, but then quickly realize its limitations and try to improve. Kinda like the GSD right now, and the effect it has on new players.

An ISD is only as defensively strong as a Guppy. Share it has 5 more hull but by the time I get to the hull it will die in a turn.

8 more hull with Motti. On something that isn't a punching bag. It hits back. And Engineers.

Also, killing an ISD is going to be doable with the right builds. For some builds, however, fighting 3 ISD+Motti is going to be impossible. That's the issue, build restriction.

It still has weak sides when compared to its front and other dice. 2 blue 2 red is far weaker than 4 red and a blue.

Sure it will be a pain but that's what it should be. It is an Imperial Star Destroyer.

Though a Whale list with Akbar, Gunnery Team, and Enhanced Armaments will have more red dice than the front of the ISD and can repair as much as the ISD. Remember, it only has 4 points.

Also, the whole "just use build X to counter build Y" is exactly what I talked about with X-Wing's meta. I personally enjoy when my decisions made on the table matter more than the decisions made off the table. I don't want to see Armada become glorified Rock Paper Scissors in the way that X-Wing became. I think I already said this.

Don't give me that harebrained fluff gibberish. This is about balance. An ISD will kill simply kill Nebulons, even Corvettes will have a hard time running from it. And they can push their squadron value to six. 6 bomber squadrons with Rhymer, next the ISD which has nothing to fear closing in and no trouble at all staying in command distance. And the ISD can easily maintain formation with Gladiators. The Victory has become a waste of points. Way to go, FFG.

I know that is is probably too much to ask on these boards, but could you play with the model at least once before coming to the conclusion that it invalidates another ship. I mean I feel that is reasonable to ask of you. With you know the higher point format, the base size you have never played with, upgrades that you don't even know what they might do. Or are we sticking with the knee-jerk reaction based on a marginal amount of information?

I don't think the problem will be 3 ISD. More like 1 ISD with Gladiators. The real problem is the VSD going extinct. Anything the VSD can do, the ISD can do better. Armada may also get an aggravated problem with "big is beautiful". Crits apart, a ship with one hull point fires back just as well as one without a scratch. At the moment this is mitigated with more attacks pulling more defence tokens. An ISD with enough blue dice will pull defence tokens just as well. At the moment the Imperials pay for their superior firepower with inferior mobility. Next thing, in an I go You go system, it pays to have large firepower concentrated in one ship. Vapors don't shoot back.

Knee-jerk reaction based on marginal information it is then!

Also Atomic maybe don't tread close to breaching your NDA on the same companies forums. Just seems pointlessly risky behavior.