Couldn't have said it better myself Corellian Corvette. In fact I have not said it as well as you.

I don't think the problem will be 3 ISD. More like 1 ISD with Gladiators. The real problem is the VSD going extinct. Anything the VSD can do, the ISD can do better. Armada may also get an aggravated problem with "big is beautiful". Crits apart, a ship with one hull point fires back just as well as one without a scratch. At the moment this is mitigated with more attacks pulling more defence tokens. An ISD with enough blue dice will pull defence tokens just as well. At the moment the Imperials pay for their superior firepower with inferior mobility. Next thing, in an I go You go system, it pays to have large firepower concentrated in one ship. Vapors don't shoot back.

I agree with the first part, as I'm quite excited to run an ISD with flanking Glads. Even at 120, you can have an ISD II, 2 Glad Is + ACMs, and a Glad I Demolisher with ACMs, with 81 points left over for the Commander and upgrades. Depending on what the Raider brings to the fore, maybe swap that for one of the Glad Is... or maybe it even fits into that 81 point allotment with a commander (giving five [FIVE!] speed 3 ships). Downgrade to the ISD I with those two Glad Is/Demolisher, and you could be looking at as much as 90-100 points left for a commander and upgrades...

As to the rest, I'll reserve judgment until I have a chance to play with the models. Sure, an ISD II has better stats than a Vic II (on paper), but is it 35 points better? Is it nearly 50 points better than a Vic I?We'll see in time, I guess (assuming, of course, that there even is a universal answer to begin with).

@Lyraeus: Dangerous Territory would be an easy choice then?

This is worth considering. Say I intentionally bid low because I want second (or I have a high bid because I want to go second). 1st player chooses from my objectives, so naturally I choose objectives that will benefit my ISDs.

• Navigation objectives. Dangerous territory: if the ISD's base turns out to be as problematic as it looks, then this is an obvious choice. Now my ships ignore obstacles for movement purposes. They can still obstruct shots, so that's a concern, but they're no longer deterrents to positioning. Add to this the fact that the ISD moves at speed 3, has a huge base for overlapping obstacles, and will pose a serious threat to any other obstacle-grabbing ship, and it seems an opponent would lean away from this one. Or, if you want to be really crazy, take Minefields, and place all objectives yourself. Do you place all the obstacles behind you to protect your flanks (and give you free range of the play area)? Does your opponent have a fat-based MC-80 you can play around with? Do you funnel your opponent's fleet into the overlapping front arcs of your three ISD IIs? Let your imagination run free...(Probably best to playtest this one before tournament play.)
• Defense objectives. Contested Outpost has been my default for Vic-heavy lists, and it's hard to imagine why that would change with ISD heavy lists (the front arcs you can bring to bear on the outpost are even more punishing, and with proper positioning, plus the large base size, it'll be interesting to see just how much the ISDs can spread out (or have to cluster) while remaining within distance 1 of the station). Another intriguing possibility is Firing Lanes. 3 ISD IIs fanning out to cover three objectives with front/side arcs? That's a lot of coverage. And then there's Hyperspace Assault... an ISD II on the board slingshots a Rhymer-Ball at an MC-80, then another ISD II hyperspaces in behind the MC-80, with bomber reinforcements, squadron-commands the horde, then attacks with double-arcs. If the ship survives, it's in a world of hurt... and may still have the other ISD II to deal with, depending on positioning. That leaves Fleet Ambush. That seems list-dependent, so maybe you pass on it. But against certain lists (tons of Nebs? Yavaris and squadron support? Fragile MC-30s?), maybe it's to your advantage to have them deploy within range of an alpha strike. Or maybe you just want the enemy fleet deployed separately, so the 3 speed ISDs can alpha strike the advanced group before the rest of the enemy arrives.
• That leaves the assault objectives. Even with just a 3 ISD II list, Opening Salvo is crazy. How many dice is that... 10 or 11, with two (or three) blacks? Times three? There are definitely ships that can walk away from that, but goodness... Run an ISD with supporting Glads--as many as five ships--and... no thanks. Or there's Advanced Gunnery. A free double-shot from my ISD's front arc at the same target? In most cases, the risk-reward is probably worth running over an obstacle.

All this to say, Armada is far more complicated than simple stat comparisons. Every ship (so far, at least), has something it does well, and something it doesn't do well. Objectives are a way to shore up your own weaknesses (or exploit your opponent's weaknesses) if you're player 2, or a challenge to over come (or build towards) if you're player 1. Last I checked, tournament settings play with objectives, so discussing any ship in a vacuum, without consideration of objective play, is limited theory crafting.

That said, objective selection itself is also just one aspect of this game. It's important, to be sure, and can have a tremendous impact on how games unfold (if not on the outcome itself), but there are so many other factors to consider. You need synergies within your list (ships, squadron support, commander, upgrades...). Depending on whether or not you have initiative, you need objectives that complement your list (if you're player 2) or a strategy to get yours regardless of the objective (player 1). You need to maneuver to bring your primary weapons to bear, preferably without running into an obstacle ( ), your own ship ( ), off the board (*face-palm), your perfectly-positioned dogfighting squadrons ( ), preferably without exposing yourself to concentrated fire, flank fire, or overshooting your targets (thankfully, with 3 speed and better yaw, undershooting your targets should be more forgiving than with a Vic... not to mention incredibly cinematic). Once you're engaged, it depends on activation order and number, proper command plotting, combat tactics, resource management, commander abilities, round number, objectives (and their special rules), and of course random dice rolls. Plus probably another 3-4 things I've overlooked/haven't discovered yet.

I'm excited to see how the ISD (and other wave II ships) changes how we think about all of this. At least we have some basic info now.

The VSD should remain the more cost effective carrier depending upon unreleased upgrades of course (and the ISD-I cost). Which is great as squadrons greatly help counter it's slow speed and turning. A 5 VSD list also seems pretty crazy.

Remember that Hyperspace Assault only lets you set aside one small or medium ship and three squadrons. It won't let you jump an ISD or MC80 in.

Vsd will be far more cost effective as a carrier but 5 squadrons with hangars is tempting

Greedy, but tempting

Im going to guess that the mc80 will be about 100 points or so then

If I recall, Hyperspace Assault requires the model to be "Within" a certain distance of the marker. . . That means all inside that area I believe

Nope! Hyperspace is "at" not "within". Big difference!

You are right. I was going off memory. . . .have not seen anyone choose that card in quite some time. . .

As mentioned, Hyperspace Assault is only small and medium ships, so ISDs and MC-80s will not be hyperspacing in on you.

You're right Ceryliae and Rowdy, no hyperspacing ISDs. For balance purposes, this is probably for the best, but it makes me a little sad. What will Thrawn do when he arrives, I wonder?

Hey guys !

So, out of curiosity, any spoil for Darth Vader as a commander ?

I'm curious if he would be the Imperial squadron-oriented Commander counterpart of Dodonna. I mean, in the movies, he likes his squadrons quite a bit !

Also, considering the ISD is going to have the largest Hangar Bays with 4 for the Class 2 and 5 for the Class 1...

https://instagram.com/p/1u-PKchkHH/

He's looking 35-36ish points to me.

I would like to talk about the MC-30, especially since the Gladiator is kinda the King of the Roost ATM. The Ordinan... Card that comes with MC-30, that looks like it'll let you re-roll black dice under some condition. Assault Torpedoes looks like it will hopefully be some competition against ACM for the Black Crit as well.

We know the MC-30 will have Ordinance, Turbolaser, Officer, Weapons Team, Support Team (the face down card on the Here They Come article), and Defensive Retrofit slots. One will be Red and the other a Blue dice variant, the red probably being oh 8-12 points more expensive. That's all 10 cards accounted for.

Raider comes with 8 Cards, 2 titles, a commander, two cards called Ordinance Experts(Gunnery?) and Quad Laser Turrets(Turbolaser?), and Rapid Reload (almost certainly Ordinance). That leaves two completely unknown, and i'd wager one of those two is a support team. Unless Ordinance Experts is a Support Team Upgrade, which the Raider is practically guarantee to have.

Good find Potter ! I would say 36 points like you (quite expensive, but fitting for the man !), but I really can't make anything of the text which is in Spanish and too blurred to make out.

The MC30 looks like a decent ship, and from what we know, I can speculate that it's main use is going to be large amounts of burst damage before dying/flying away. First, Riekaan will allow ships to survive until the end of the status phase, ensuring they deliver their payload. Second, its defense tokens are good to have it survive on the approach like the CR90B, but once it's there I find its lack of Brace disturbing

The Ordnance... card could go both ways for me :

- Discard this card to reroll any black dice

- Spend one dice to reroll any black dice (a bit like Leading Shots)

It's interesting that you noted the available upgrade cards !

I'm curious about the Turbolasers bit, because it is usually an upgrade reserved to ships with a sound amount of Red dice. Can we infer that the Scout Frigate (the Red Dice variant) will have Turbolaser Upgrades and the Torpedo Frigate (the Blue Dice variant) will have Ordnance upgrades ? This would be an interesting way to provide different roles for the ship.

In terms of cost, I see it priced at around the same range as a Gladiator, maybe a tad more, but less than a Victory I.

Lol, yeah, i keep wishing TV CSI magic photo enhancement was real, and I could get my buddy who works for the local CSI just "Enhance It!"x3 and Voila! Spoilers. Stupid real world.

Perhaps, but historically(lol? EaW:FoC) The MC 30 was pretty much JUST an ordinance ship, I'd like to see the both versions with Ordinance, and maybe just the Red version with the Turbolasers. They've been keeping this One Model Cheap, One Model Deluxe, thing going on, and that might be the difference.

I do agree with you though, that's kinda what the cards are leading me to believe, but i find it hard to believe they'd set up a Turbolaser variant with much of its firepower invested into Black dice, 3 on each side, especially as you noted, it lacks the Brace. it won't be able to do stand up trades for any length of time. Perhaps a title will give it Insidious like range, although from what text i can see, it seems more to do with defense of some sort. Im am thinking that Ordinan.. card that rerolls is the Ordinance Experts Mentioned in the Raider blurb, seeing as how they're a friggin Gunnery Team.

God I hope we get a spoiler Tuesday. I can't wait all the way to the 1st weekend of October.

I wish that too ! I know for a fact that there are enhancement softwares that are quite efficient, but not that efficient

Regarding the Turbo vs Ordnance option, my point was more regarding the CR90 A and B variants. Rather than being a Deluxe/Cheap variant, both have very different roles in the Rebel fleet. The A being a general line ship and the B being more of a debuff platform with the Ion Cannons slot. However it's true that the CR90 A and B are either/or in terms of dice while the Scout and Torpedo Frigates aren't as much.

But you make a good case about the Ordnance upgrade for all, with so many black dice per ship. (I didn't play FoC much, really wasn't loving the Consortium's superpower ) ! On top of that, we know that it has 2 Ordnance upgrade cards, so it's likely to be its primary role.

What we notice though is that it only has 1 Turbolaser upgrade and 1 Defense Retrofit upgrade. So, it's very possible that the Scout Frigate gets the Turbolaser upgrade and the Torpedo Frigate gets the Defense Retrofit upgrade. After all, with Blue and Black dice only, the Torpedo Frigate will need to take before it can dish, because it's going to spend 1-2 turns getting into positions without firing, while the Scout Frigate can start shooting since Turn 2.

That would make more sense than having Ordnance or Turbolasers on the variants.

Regarding spoilers, next weekend is the National Tourney for France and the guys at Edge Entertainment (that translate the game and publish it in French) are going to attend with the Wave 2 ships. Now, I wonder if I should just take a vacation and go there

Shrimp frigate

+long range (evades and side red dice for strafing with scout variant)

+more black dice on side

-brace (closer range durability)

-squadron support (value & anti squadron relative to gsd 2)

-demolisher title (who knows what they'll get, though?)

At a VERY rudimentary glance they seem more built as bouncers to keep imps off your strafing Mon cals or fatties rather than aggressive pile drivers ala the gray cheese wedge

Ooooooo i like that interpretation MoffZen. Yeah, Turbo/Defense would be a nice split between the two variants. The more I think about, the more I feel that's the safe bet. In fact, Redund... hopefully refers to the historically OP MonCal Shield generators, and says At the... Status P(hase)... recov(er)... And its a modification, which are limited to one per ship. What do you think about,
Redundant Shield Generators "At the beginning of the Status Phase, recover one shield."

That would help offset the need to be in medium range, while not having brace.

The Raider comes with Rapid Reload, which is Enhanced Armaments but for Black dice instead of red.

The MC-30 also has 4 defense tokens, per an interview with Alex Davy at GenCon.

The MC30 likely lacks a brace which will be hard for it. Thankfully double redirect tokens will be a life saver. I think Advanced Projectors will work better then the Redundant card (though I agree that it removes shields. . . If it only does 1 shield though it won't be as good as AP)

I think I would still run the Scout Frigate which is the Red dice version and add in Enhanced Armaments. Add in Akbar and you have a robust sparring list

I'm picturing 1 ISD-II, 2 VSD-I, a Demolisher Gladiator I. Season to taste.

Oh yes, so much triangular goodness.

The MC30 likely lacks a brace which will be hard for it. Thankfully double redirect tokens will be a life saver. I think Advanced Projectors will work better then the Redundant card (though I agree that it removes shields. . . If it only does 1 shield though it won't be as good as AP)

I think I would still run the Scout Frigate which is the Red dice version and add in Enhanced Armaments. Add in Akbar and you have a robust sparring list

True, unless it does something op like recover a shield in each arc

Im really looking at it like an anti-Gladiator. Use MC30 to block, and then blast it into oblivion, it'd be a good counter to the Demolisher. Espcially since from what text i can see, the titles are defensive oriented. Oh man, the Admonition says: While defending during the Squadron Phase.... Oh god if they get the cluster bombs from FoC, squadrons are dead, dead, dead.

Regarding the redundant card, I think that there is going to be a defensive retrofit that comes with both the ISD and the MC30 that adds an extra evade token in some function. It might not be the Redundant card, because it doesn't really fit with the words which are revealed. However, I don't think it's a coincidence that both of those ships have one more defense token shown than usual. The ISD is confirmed to normally have 4 defense tokens by its card. Going off of precedent, there is currently no other small or medium size ship which has 4 defense tokens.

I don't believe that Fantasy Flight would have just trolled us by putting the evade token there.

Ooooooo i like that interpretation MoffZen. Yeah, Turbo/Defense would be a nice split between the two variants. The more I think about, the more I feel that's the safe bet. In fact, Redund... hopefully refers to the historically OP MonCal Shield generators, and says At the... Status P(hase)... recov(er)... And its a modification, which are limited to one per ship. What do you think about,

Redundant Shield Generators "At the beginning of the Status Phase, recover one shield."

That would help offset the need to be in medium range, while not having brace.

Well, only time will tell, but I guess it would really make sense. Red dice are really useful at long range (I'm starting to question my use of CR90Bs ) and at long range the MC30 can count on redirects + Evades to survive. At closer range without Brace, defense retrofits and shields are going to be much more important, so I haven't got a bad feeling about this.

For the Redundancy, definitely agree with your theory there. I was considering 2 shields, but 1 shield seems more decent. It's like a free Engineering Token for the MC30.

____

Going further, I think I'm really going to like the "Tubolaser... Ex(...)" card. "When attacking, you can spend 1 (Evade Token?) to change (a dice?) to a face with 2 (hits?)".

Next, Assault Torpedoes could probably mean dealing direct damage to the hull rather than shields. Probably 1 damage to the hull ?

I really can't speculate on Lando, it seems really complicated But it sounds like "counter" attacking by spending tokens to add attacks. This would be really unique and quite powerful I figure !

____

EDIT : I'm personally a tad more excited about the Mon Cal because I'm a Squadron lover.

From what I can make out :

Independence : "Each (squadron) you activate ... its speed ... end of its ... Squadrons ... speed in th(...) ... attack th(...)" - Probably increasing the speed or reducing the speed with extra attcks.

Booste(d Signal ?) : "You... friendly... close-long... of close..." - Could it be that Squadrons can attack at long range ?