This is where the "narrative" part comes into play. Make the player narrate their attempt at being charming and take that into account when determining difficulty, or dice pool,or if they wow you with their idea just outright deciding automatic success (or failure if they wow you with face palm).

I have never agreed with this approach as it penalizes players that are not able to quickly think on their feet and you are actually using the PLAYER'S Charm (or Negotiation et al) and not the CHARACTER'S Skills to make the judgement on.

For example, you would not recommend that a player punch you (or hit you with an axe) to modify how well their brawl or melee attack would do.

Only because my combat oriented players are beefy dudes who can hold their own in a fight!

Image: "I don't need to see your identification. You can go about your business."

Put some Lekku on that young lady, and she’d make quite the fetching little Twi’lek, albeit rather more scantily clad than any Twi’lek I’ve ever seen … in any semi-official source.

Good thing that Haley is blind and can’t see the actual image.

Oh, I don't know - I think Darth Talon could give her a run for her money...

Oh, I don't know - I think Darth Talon could give her a run for her money...

Darth Talon is close, but still wears a bit more fabric than the young lady in that picture. Not much, but a little bit more.

If you wanted a female figure that was wearing less fabric, I think you might have to go with someone wearing a “tiny itty bitty slingshot monokini”, and make sure that you have Google SafeSearch turned on.

As many have stated here already, Charm isn't a super power and wont get you absolutely anything and everything you want. It will be somewhat situational such as, convincing a trooper you're an innocent who just happens to be passing by and to let you past a cordoned off area might be possible.. convincing a stormtrooper to let you walk into the restricted zone is far less likely especially if there's a reasonable chance that his punishment for failure is that he will be killed. But, if you have paperwork that is expired or has the right clearance but in a different station your charm might get them to make a special exception and let you in anyhow.

Charm is about convincing someone to make a special exception within reason. They're not likely to go and die for you or throw away their sense of duty completely. You have to be in a position that the bending of the rules can seem relatively small.

Isn't that more like deception though ShiKage? I ask this because you are deceiving them using an item that may not belong to you or is not authentic.

I would run them using discipline not cool. The character may be being charming. But stormtroopers would be following their orders and thus be using discipline. The chart you are referring to is a guideline.

Except he said exactly that:

"This is where the "narrative" part comes into play. Make the player narrate their attempt at being charming and take that into account when determining difficulty, or dice pool,or if they wow you with their idea just outright deciding automatic success (or failure if they wow you with face palm)."

(Emphasis mine)

Which is pretty must stating, that if I as a PLAYER do a good job of impressing the GM as a PERSON, my CHARACTER will succeed on the skill roll over the NPC, with no roll required. As well as, if I as a PLAYER do a poor job of impressing the GM as a PERSON, my CHARACTER will Fail on the skill roll over the NPC, with no roll required.

It is really hard to read that last clause any other way. It basically states, do a good job AS A PLAYER on a Physical Action, then your CHARACTER is rewarded for that.

I would say that you've missed my meaning by looking to the extreme example, but I don't really care to get into that. What I'm trying to get across is that a balance should be found between ROLE playing and ROLL playing. In some extreme cases I'll let an inspired, well explained plan succeed without forcing a role. In some cases no matter how good a player thinks their plan is, it won't happen. In ALL cases I appreciate it when somebody really tries to act in character because that's sorta the point.

As it is impossible to persuade Stormtroopers into disobedience, supposedly, that would be five purple and a Destiny for the attempt, if I remember correctly.

There is no need to say "no".

But I try to have my players be less specific in their actions at times, for instance I try to dial back their "I try to charm him to get into the room" to "I try to charm him" the first is way too specific in my opinion.

If I would allow that first roll it could amount to a player going "I succeed!!!! Three successes!" and me having to answer "Yeah, he is still not letting you in though..."

If I have him roll the second and he'd go "I succeed!!!! Two succes, two advantage!" I can go "You charmed him and he tells you about how hopelessly understaffed they are at the moment and that not even all doors into the facility are guarded at all times."

Oh, I don't know - I think Darth Talon could give her a run for her money...

Darth Talon is close, but still wears a bit more fabric than the young lady in that picture. Not much, but a little bit more.

If you wanted a female figure that was wearing less fabric, I think you might have to go with someone wearing a “tiny itty bitty slingshot monokini”, and make sure that you have Google SafeSearch turned on.

I don't know if there's a safe way to search that term, even with safesearch on. I mean, I got this:

For example, you would not recommend that a player punch you (or hit you with an axe) to modify how well their brawl or melee attack would do.

Hey, if your long-running campaign gets boring, this sort of thing could add some spice into it.

"You want to jump from the speeder bike onto the passing landspeeder? Well, let's go head over to I-80 with your pickup and Ben's Harley to see exactly what technique you will be using...."

ETA: Am I the only one with memories of an RPG childhood with friends doing such things as long jumps across the living room to determine if a PC's leap across a chasm was in the ballpark of realism?

Charm is smooth talking with a wink and a smile.

Deception is lying.

Coercion is brow beating threats intimidation.

Negotiation is more of a haggling.

Charm is what you do to make friends with the lonely storm trooper at the One Eyed Bantha with a few drinks and requires time. You can try and make nice with him while he is on duty, but that would be an upgrade to the difficulty. Bringing smokes or hot drinks or even some soup can get you a boost. Now if your already in a restricted area its going to add at least one setback to the roll. If the alarm is blaring well your heading into the impossible range of difficulty.

Deception is what you use when you are trying to lie your way past the Storm Trooper. This can be anything from being a poor lost escort looking for the barracks for that bachlor party to pretending to be another Trooper or Officer. You can prep this with a charm or coercian check to either make him like you so he doesn't actually pay attention to your papers as much getting boosts to make it easier to deceive him.

Storm troopers are not brainwashed or even perfect little robots they are flesh and blood people with human failings not clones born in tubes. Most of them vary in loyalty to the Empire for a variety of reason and can have soft spots just like everyone else. That means charm will work on them to a degree.

If a single storm trooper spots you in a village while looking for a group of rebels its possible to charm them by appealing to his or her's better nature and let you go. Its just not going to be easy unless this poor guy sees you as the younger sibling or friend who he left behind who just needs that small break right now and couldn't possibly be the person who just blew up a hanger full of shuttles.

Who knows you could be lucky and the squad is just one moral quandry away from switching sides...

Saying no is easy, not really an art at all. Being creative and clever enough to say yes is an art! See the possibilities in the story and the situation! Of course, everyone has to play by the rules of the given story. You can`t say "I can fly now" if it doesn`t make sense within the story, that`s not how "yes and..." works.

Aren't stormtroopers just like any other minion group and designed to operate as a unit in the game? We don't see them operating alone in the films.

Yeah, any opposed check with any single minion is going to be an easy win but PCs should be trying to Charm squads, not individual troopers. Alternatively, the trooper can always contact an officer type on the PC's behalf which would pit the PC's roll against the officer's Cool stat along with some Setback dice.

With these types of situations, Charm checks are used to convince an NPC that the PC's behavior or request is perfectly normal. It can't be used to convince a target to do something that he or she wouldn't normally do or go against orders. If it's a situation where a PC wouldn't reasonably know what's considered "normal" for a target, a 1 purple Knowledge check (say, Knowledge: Warfare) could be used by the GM to provide hints to the player.

Aren't stormtroopers just like any other minion group and designed to operate as a unit in the game? We don't see them operating alone in the films.

Yea, they`re are pretty much blaster fodder, expendable minions and stupid henchmen based on a classic trope... However, some people see them as elite super soldiers.

I guess they are whatever we want them to be. Elite soldiers, fed up government employees or what they are originaly based on, the evil king`s stupid and evil guards who goes down when you bash them on the head.

If heroes wants to trick them, charm them or sneak past them, I would make that as doable as blasting them or knocking them out. There should be more than one option of overcomming minions in a story!

This is a specific issue, but asks a larger question which is: in a narrative "yes and" system, when is it ok to say that something doesn't work?

[...]

What do you think? Is it ok in some situations to say thematically "That won't work" even though, mechanically, there are rules to do it?

As a GM, you should say "No" whenever you think it's appropriate. If you don't think stormtroopers can be influenced via charm you say "No, stormtroopers can't be influenced via charm."

If it makes you feel better, add an ability to their stat block that states "Immune to charm" or a houserule that disallows charm from being used on minion groups.

You're answer doesn't have to be "Yes, and ..." every time. That's stupid. It's fine for a GM to put reasonable limits on what's allowed. IMO, this kind of interpretation is of the ilk that Emerson describes when he wrote "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds ..."

I don't usually insist that a player spell out exactly what they say in a charm check, as some of us just aren't quite as smooth in real life. That said, if it's an improbable situation, such as charming an on duty trooper, I do ask that they give me an idea of what their general strategy will be. Will they try to be flirty, bribe him, promise him sweet nothing in the closet right now. Whatever.

Unless their idea is super amazing I'll probably say no, or force them to roll a difficulty of 5 reds with all the despair potential that entails. If they question that difficulty I can break it down: I'm setting the difficulty at 1, based on the troopers cool stat. I'm just upgrading it nine times due to the ludicrousness of the difficulty.

Thankfully, my group doesn't generally try to pull this sort of stuff.

As many have stated here already, Charm isn't a super power and wont get you absolutely anything and everything you want. It will be somewhat situational such as, convincing a trooper you're an innocent who just happens to be passing by and to let you past a cordoned off area might be possible.. convincing a stormtrooper to let you walk into the restricted zone is far less likely especially if there's a reasonable chance that his punishment for failure is that he will be killed. But, if you have paperwork that is expired or has the right clearance but in a different station your charm might get them to make a special exception and let you in anyhow.

Charm is about convincing someone to make a special exception within reason. They're not likely to go and die for you or throw away their sense of duty completely. You have to be in a position that the bending of the rules can seem relatively small.

Isn't that more like deception though ShiKage? I ask this because you are deceiving them using an item that may not belong to you or is not authentic.

That's a good question. I suppose it could go either way.. are you trying to deceive them into accepting the paperwork or are you trying to charm them into overlooking the fact that the paperwork isn't quite in order? I would imagine it somewhat depends on your approach.

Yea, they`re are pretty much blaster fodder, expendable minions and stupid henchmen based on a classic trope... However, some people see them as elite super soldiers.

Would the takeaway here be to play them how they're written in the rules, not as how you want to house rule them, and you won't have issues? Or, just rewrite their stats from the ground up so that, individually, they're a Social Combat challenge?

There seems to be both a wanting of cake and a desire to eat it in this thread. Which makes me think there isn't a satisfactory answer to give to the OP.

Yea, they`re are pretty much blaster fodder, expendable minions and stupid henchmen based on a classic trope... However, some people see them as elite super soldiers.

Would the takeaway here be to play them how they're written in the rules, not as how you want to house rule them, and you won't have issues? Or, just rewrite their stats from the ground up so that, individually, they're a Social Combat challenge?

There seems to be both a wanting of cake and a desire to eat it in this thread. Which makes me think there isn't a satisfactory answer to give to the OP.

I don't think people are wanting their cake and eating it too. The problem is that it's hard to reconcile what Stormtroopers are. They are the cannon fodder yes. But the source material told us time and time again that they were the Empire's elite. From the moment Obi Wan made his initial comment about them to the Emperor himself and his comments we've always had to reconcile the elite forces of the setting being nothing more than easy to mow down cannon fodder.

The two are not easily reconciled. So while on the one hand they fall easily it is, to certain degrees, hard to imagine that the Empires elite is going to easily fall prey to a pretty face, a wink, and a smile. That's like expecting a Navy SEAL to be easily distracted and ignore his duty because someone tried to cozy up to him. Using your elite troops as cannon fodder is going to create rule situations like this in which their status does not always measure up to their stats and the expectations placed on them because of their status.

Reading the description of Charm, it lists one of the uses as "appeals to a target's better nature - even if it does not exist." and... man, I guess a character could appeal to stormtrooper's 'better nature' but as a GM I would upgrade the F*CK out of that check, like 5 or 6 times if I allowed it at all.

I think the application of charm to a group of minions is also rather ... bizarre. Not disallowed, but weird.

Oh, and the Charm description explicitly states that cool usually counters Charm, but it also states: "An exception is a situation in which the PC is trying to Charm a large group, in which case a set difficulty is usually employed."

Minions aren't really "large groups" (I pretty sure they're describing mobs and crowds), but I would still invoke this under GM-says-so rules to set the difficulty to be something appropriate.

I think a lot of my thinking about how to handle stormtroopers comes from the old WEG material. I recall a specific side-bar in one of their old core texts that said it's impossible to bribe a stormtrooper, and really freaking hard to get them to knowingly act against orders.

I don't think people are wanting their cake and eating it too. The problem is that it's hard to reconcile what Stormtroopers are. They are the cannon fodder yes. But the source material told us time and time again that they were the Empire's elite. From the moment Obi Wan made his initial comment about them to the Emperor himself and his comments we've always had to reconcile the elite forces of the setting being nothing more than easy to mow down cannon fodder.

The two are not easily reconciled. So while on the one hand they fall easily it is, to certain degrees, hard to imagine that the Empires elite is going to easily fall prey to a pretty face, a wink, and a smile. That's like expecting a Navy SEAL to be easily distracted and ignore his duty because someone tried to cozy up to him. Using your elite troops as cannon fodder is going to create rule situations like this in which their status does not always measure up to their stats and the expectations placed on them because of their status.

Honestly, I don't think it's that hard to reconcile.

Stormtroopers are elite regular troops. Every time we see them go up against regulars in the movies (Which is basically the opening of Ep IV and the Battle of Hoth), they straight-up wreck the rebel's regulars. But even elite regulars aren't really a match for special forces, which is a much more appropriate label for practically any PC and Navy Seals.

So yeah, we see them fall easy in the movies, but because they're fighting pretty non-standard combatants (PCs). When they're doing what they were trained to do (fight other regulars), they do a bang-up job.

This is just my interpretation based on the films and my head canon.

Addendum: Wikipedia indicates "regular" simply refers to a national army. A better word might be "conventional", but I'm simply using the two terms interchangeably above, with the intent of differentiating them from "Special Operations Forces" which use unconventional tactics.

THX-1138 isn't going to let you into the secure room, but you did get a date for tonight!

I guess we finally know why TK-421 wasn't at his post.

I don't think anyone understand the Stormtrooper/Imperial Army distinction.

I just got the Imperial Handbook - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1452145288?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

It's a Legends book, but 2015 and with a Disney stamp - so I consider it more "official" then something Legends from 1980.

It does have the Imperial Army and the Stormtrooper Corps in it as distinct organizations.

The Imperial Army section has uniforms for Vehicle crew for heavy armor and armored cavalry. The formation and deployment section makes it clear that there are imperial army troopers. There is a picture showing an Imperial Assault Regiment in action. What do the line troopers wear? STORMTROOPER ARMOR!

I'm really coming to the conclusion in my head canon that that all Stormtroopers wear stormtrooper armor, but not everyone in stormtrooper armor are Stormtroopers. If both Stormtroopers and Imperial Army wear stormtrooper armor, it would certainly explain the confusion. And allow people to perhaps charm some, but not others.

I don't think anyone understand the Stormtrooper/Imperial Army distinction.

I just got the Imperial Handbook - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1452145288?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

It's a Legends book, but 2015 and with a Disney stamp - so I consider it more "official" then something Legends from 1980.

It’s written by Daniel Wallace, the same guy who did “The Jedi Path”, “The Bounty Hunter Code” and “The Book of Sith”. So, yeah — I’d consider that to be a very high pedigree.

I don't think anyone understand the Stormtrooper/Imperial Army distinction.

I just got the Imperial Handbook - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1452145288?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

It's a Legends book, but 2015 and with a Disney stamp - so I consider it more "official" then something Legends from 1980.

It’s written by Daniel Wallace, the same guy who did “The Jedi Path”, “The Bounty Hunter Code” and “The Book of Sith”. So, yeah — I’d consider that to be a very high pedigree.

They are all great reads, but they're all absolutely EU-based.