I noticed some contradictory rules regarding leaving a RtL dungeon from the final level.

Basic portal rules say on pg. 18:

The Portal
Beyond the red rune-locked door on each
level is a portal leading to the next level.
Once a hero steps onto the portal map piece,
he is removed from the board and becomes
invulnerable to harm. Heroes remain thusly
in transit until all of them either enter the
portal or move to town , at which point all of
the heroes are moved to the next level.

On earlier levels, the heroes obviously can enter the next level while sitting in Tamalir, as long as at least one hero has moved through the portal.

But:

Additionally, when the heroes go through the portal on the third
level, they do not emerge at a deeper dungeon level, but instead
return to the surface.

This could imply that on the final level all heroes ("the heroes") have to move through the portal.

The rules for Rumors dungeons say in contrast, implying generality for all dungeons:

The Rumor level (and therefore the entire dungeon) ends as a
dungeon does , when the heroes either all travel through its
portal, or flee by simultaneously returning to Tamalir and
declaring that they have fled.

Similarly, but shorter for the Legendaries, stating generality for all dungeons outright :

Legendary Areas end as normal dungeons do : they are marked
as explored when the heroes flee or leave via portal ..

So, do all heroes have to move through the portal on the final level if they want to successfully end any dungeon?

My off-the-cuff guess would be that "when the heroes go through the portal" is being used as a shorthand for "when the heroes complete the portal transit process we defined earlier, i.e. when at least one hero goes through the portal and any heroes that didn't are in town."

Parathion said:

I disagree. This rule refers specifically to what happens when the heroes go through the portal on the final dungeon level. It says nothing about what happens with regards to heroes who are in town already via glyph, nor does it exclude the part about heroes in town mentioned in the earlier passage you quoted. It simply states that heroes who DO go through the portal wind up on the surface instead of on a deeper dungeon level. Likewise the rules concerning rumours and legendary areas say nothing to exclude other options previously made available to the heroes. I think you (or whoever pointed this out to you) are trying too hard to find rules debates that don't exist, no offense.

No offense taken. Yet the rumor rule explicitly states ALL heroes and implies that this is valid for all dungeons.

Thinking about it, if the heros complete a dungeon successfully, they have the options to stay at the location or to move back to Tamalir. If two heros leave via portal (emerging at the surface as stated in the rules) and two are in Tamalir, how would the ones in Tamalir get back to the location, if the party chooses to stay where it is?

The same way they get instantly teleported to Tamalir when killed: the magic of game simplification.

i'm with parathion on this, i think it is intentional that the heroes all need to go through the portal in the dungeon. the reason being is, as mentioned, the fact that with success in a dungeon they can choose to stay at that destination on the map. the reason they pop up in tamalir after death or through teleporter is the gem that rests in tamalir, so there is an explicit explanation in the game. it is not just simplification.

Parathion said:

I don't know, how are the Heroes who finish the 3rd level of a dungeon transported to the surface of said dungeon? Sounds like the same "physics" to me...

-shnar

Parathion said:

If you're going to follow this to the letter, I believe that means that as soon as one hero enters the portal, the heroes can no longer flee, and the only ways the dungeon can end are if all the heroes make it to the portal or if they're ejected by cycling the overlord deck twice.

That sounds like a Bad Idea; seems like you could have a situation where the last hero doesn't quite make it through (e.g. overlord plays a trap card) and then the heroes can't finish the dungeon unless that lone hero can single-handedly fight his way to the portal.

Seems unlikely that that was the goal. Especially if this was written before the ejection rule and the overlord could continue beating on the last lone hero forever until he escapes.

Why couldn´t this be the goal? It would cut off some stupid runner strategies in that one hero kills the boss, another makes it to the portal, while the other don´t even have to bother to enter the level.

It would require a bit more planning on the hero side, of course, but I don´t see that as a killer argument.

Parathion said:

Because this would break the game. It wouldn't just prevent some stupid strategies - it would be a big threat to "normal dungeon play" as well. One single fault (and in some cases, it wouldn't be a gamers fault at all) could grant the OL a big amount of conquest and could force some boring hours in which one single player tries to escape a dungeon while the rest of the heroes group is watching out of the window because they cannot do anything to help their friend.

I think the rule to get to the next level (or out of the last level) by using the glyph/town as short cut has been developed to prevent exactly those situation.

Breaking the game is a very strong term. Do you have any evidence for that?

Why is it so difficult for the heros to close up to the portal as a team after the boss was killed and then enter it in the same turn?

As I said, it would require a bit more planning than the obvious runner tactics.

Parathion said:

According to my game-experience, the group of heroes nearly never moves as a whole through the dungeon. I don't talk about those runner-tactics that complete a dungeon in two or three turns. But even if you play it "properly", the group gets split up in most cases: Some of them are pretty fast, some of them have to crouch with a speed of 3 across the board. They all have to do tasks in different parts of the dungeon and as speed is essential, they simply can't stay all together. Even if they would move as a closed team, the OL will kill one or two of them and so they will be split again because some of them have to restart from the glyph.

So at the end of a dungeon, they won't be next to each other and some of them will not even be close to the exit-portal.

This is exactly the reason why they won't advance to the portal as a closed team in usual cases. If some of them have to wait for the others, the OL will take the occasion and kill one of them - and then at least one of them has to restart while the rest of the team has to wait again. And again. And again. Moreover, they would all have to advance adjacant to the portal to be sure that they will get all to the door without being killed or thrown back by some nasty traps.

Yes, you will say that this is perfectly possible for the heroes - but I think it will turn the game in a strange way if the worst fear is to get out of a dungeon AFTER you have killed that nasty leader with his minions. There will be really strange turns and the game will be slowed down...

You are perfectly right: "Breaking the game" is a very strong term. If you take a look at my other posts, you will see that I don't use that term very often. But I think in a case like Antistone described (maybe infinite conquest points for the OL in the original game, how it was designed before the ejection rule came up), this term is really adequate. Even in the current game, after the ejection rule has been published, I think you can call the spirit of a game "broken" when the heroes have to do strange turns because a single side-shot-rule is a worse threat than all the initial monsters in the dungeon.

Of course I know that the party is most likely split up after the main action is completed. Yet according to your current rules interpretation, every member HAS to go either through the portal or to use a glyph - both gives the OL opportunities to kill them with spawns or traps, so that is not a very good argument - going through a glyph even takes more time if a hero isn´t already adjacent to or on top of it.

I concede that a hero that was killed and would have to move again through the whole level from glyph to portal would give the OL even more opportunities, but there are only so many trap cards in the deck and spawning the heros to death is hardly affordable for the OL - I simply don´t see the scenario of killing a single unlucky hero over and over again.

Parathion said:
"Yet according to your current rules interpretation, every member HAS to go either through the portal or to use a glyph - both gives the OL opportunities to kill them with spawns or traps, so that is not a very good argument - going through a glyph even takes more time if a hero isn´t already adjacent to or on top of it."

You missed the point - if you can chose either you want to leave the dungeon via portal or via town, you don't have to enter the dungeon any more after you have been killed two spaces away from the exit. You can simply stay in town and move out of the dungeon from there. There is no danger that you get killed and killed again in trying to reach the exit.

Parathion said:

"I concede that a hero that was killed and would have to move again through the whole level from glyph to portal would give the OL even more opportunities, but there are only so many trap cards in the deck and spawning the heros to death is hardly affordable for the OL - I simply don´t see the scenario of killing a single unlucky hero over and over again."

All you need are some gold- or platin-skeletons, maybe reinforced by some other creatures blocking the way. They should be able to do enough damage against one single hero to kill him on his way running to the exit. If he should start fighting to wipe out those enemies instead of just running to the exit, the OL will get enough time to spawn him to death. All you need is blocking the right corridor.

But I think there's less use in discussing if it's possible to spawn one single hero to death or not - I simply can't believe that this method to leave a dungeon is the manner the game is designed and thought to be. After all you have seen from Descent (and I know it is a lot), does it feel right that the heroes shall wait next to the exit until the last of them has arrived to leave the dungeon all together? I think the old, common method to leave a dungeon sounds pretty more like Descent.

EDIT: I had some problems with that quote-tool, so I quoted you in the classic way.

Well, you kind of missed the point that I addressed it in the very next paragraph

Aren´t there even Rumor levels which explicitly state that all heros have to move through the portal to get their reward?

An OL can do the "kill hero two steps before the portal, then block him with spawns" trick about once or twice - remember he has to pay 19 threat per spawn minimum (a bit less with the Beastman avatar) - this is barely possible for several turns in a row. Unless the OL has accumulated a large pile of threat, and this sequence would actually give him something to do with it instead of throwing it into the garbage because one hero made it through the portal while the others were laughing their a++es off while sitting on them in town.

As for blocking with Gold or Diamond skellies (or other mobs), you will have Silver or Gold heroes, which will most likely have several means to get through this block attempt. And if they play as a team, one or two heros waiting next to the portal can come back or give a shot at the block as well. If they all lft through the portal except one unlucky guy - well, as I said, it would require a bit more planning ;-)

Parathion said:

Maybe to get the reward, but not to be able to leave the dungeon at all - and that's the point. I don't complain about rumors in which it is more complicated to get the reward, but I complain about the thought of a rule that makes it possible to imprison a hero in the descripted way.

If that way of leaving the dungeon is really the correct way, it should definitely be written more clearly in the normal dungeon section of the rules as it is. (I think nearly no gamers group has interpreted it the way you are writing here until now, and thats a hint that it is A) not thought this way or B) not written properly enough.)

I can only repeat my final question: "After all you have seen from Descent (and I know it is a lot), does it feel right that the heroes shall wait next to the exit until the last of them has arrived to leave the dungeon all together? I think the old, common method to leave a dungeon sounds pretty more like Descent.

Unless the heroes deliberately waste an entire extra turn standing around in the dungeon to ensure that the last 1-2 heroes through the portal started their turn adjacent to it, every time , then it seems to me that it is hardly the heroes' fault if the last hero gets trapped and doesn't make it through. Some hero has to be last. Regardless, this is a very subtle trap--with nothing called out in the manual, you have to assume that the heroes are not going to take great pains to guard against it until they get bitten by it at least once.

And while spawning for 19 threat is certainly not going to present much of a lasting difficulty to the full party, it looks a lot scarier when three quarters of the party is on the bench. If you can delay a lone hero three turns with a single spawn card (which doesn't seem outlandish even if the hero can usually one-shot them, depending on attack ranges and dungeon layout), then being stuck "forever" starts to look disturbingly possible (4 threat + 2 cards discarding for ~2 each every turn recovers 20 threat in about 2.5 turns). Especially if the heroes aren't paranoid about making sure their best soloist is the last one through the portal on every level of every dungeon for the entire campaign.

IMHO, makes perfect sense, considering the current "game logic".

- The level portals teleport the hero to the Glyph on the next level.
- The obelisk teleports heroes to Glyphs.
- This same teleporting mechanism can be used on the last level to the "surface" of the dungeon.

So, if one hero teleports to the glyph on level 2, then any heroes in the town are teleported in the exact same fashion, straight to the glyph.

-shnar