Think of jousting value as evaluating each ship only considering the attack, agility, hull, and shields. Based on that, it assigns a "price" (the jousting value) for the ship.

So taken by itself a ship's "jousting value" is not enough to determine how well it will perform on the table - all it does is "assign a price" to a ship?

Correct. It assigns a price to the ship at its lowest possible value w/o any upgrades, dial, actions, etc considered outside of its stat line (Attack, agility, etc). Now you're getting it as well as I do at least haha.

But we've beat this one to death here. Read through the topic by majorjuggler a little more intensively and you will find the answers there.

This new core box looks crap to me. This expansion kills: M3A (worse than TIE/FO), Z-Wing (also worse), Tie Fighter... very bad movement done by FFG. I'm stopping buying things and no more going to tournaments. Those new ships are broken compared with old ones.

This is my personal opinion, that's all. I've been playing since wave 1 and wave 7 (preordered) probably is going to be the end of the road to me.

This new core box looks crap to me. This expansion kills: M3A (worse than TIE/FO), Z-Wing (also worse), Tie Fighter... very bad movement done by FFG. I'm stopping buying things and no more going to tournaments. Those new ships are broken compared with old ones.

This is my personal opinion, that's all. I've been playing since wave 1 and wave 7 (preordered) probably is going to be the end of the road to me.

M3A was dead on arrival.

The Z-95 and the TIE Fighter aren't even really competing for the same spot in lists that the TIE/FO fills. The TIE/FO is for all intents and purposes an Imperial A-Wing that trades boost for barrel-roll (so no auto-thrusters).

The ship that is probably going to have its role squeezed a bit is the Wave 8 Inquisitor's TIE.

Think of jousting value as evaluating each ship only considering the attack, agility, hull, and shields. Based on that, it assigns a "price" (the jousting value) for the ship.

So taken by itself a ship's "jousting value" is not enough to determine how well it will perform on the table - all it does is "assign a price" to a ship?

For all intensive purposes, just ignore the jousting values...

Correct. It assigns a price to the ship at its lowest possible value w/o any upgrades, dial, actions, etc considered outside of its stat line (Attack, agility, etc).

So in post #69 of this thread, I stated that "jousting values" are barely worth a grain of salt when it comes to playing a ship on the table.

In post #73, you replied and stated that "ships with better jousting values tend to be the ships seen most in tournaments".

After a few more posts, you're now agreeing with me that we can ignore "jousting values" and that they are not enough to determine how well a ship will perform on the table.

Therefore post #69 still stands - we can ignore a ship's "jousting value" as it has no bearing on how that ship will play on the table.

As I understand Mathwing, Jousting Value is only a part of the formula used to find a ships Jousting Efficiency and Required Efficiency. The idea is to compare it's base stat line to its cost, in order to find how much a ship/pilot needs to do for your squad in order for it to be worth the points you pay for it. In general, ships/pilots with a higher jousting efficiency and lower required efficiency predicted by MJ's model have been the ships/pilots found in the upper tiers of the tournament. I believe all this in regards to actual jousting, as in flying directly at each other, all guns blazing. Soontir Fel may have poor jousting stats, but if you're using him that way you're doing it wrong.

As I understand Mathwing, Jousting Value is only a part of the formula used to find a ships Jousting Efficiency and Required Efficiency. The idea is to compare it's base stat line to its cost, in order to find how much a ship/pilot needs to do for your squad in order for it to be worth the points you pay for it. In general, ships/pilots with a higher jousting efficiency and lower required efficiency predicted by MJ's model have been the ships/pilots found in the upper tiers of the tournament. I believe all this in regards to actual jousting, as in flying directly at each other, all guns blazing. Soontir Fel may have poor jousting stats, but if you're using him that way you're doing it wrong.

Well speaking about jousting has the new stats already been crunched through yet? Also how will autothrusters affect the jousting values on 2 agility ship?

Either way IMHO the stat line is better than the E-wing and its point cost is less so yeah a much better ship than what we got before. I also think the action bar will make it more powerful. Lets face it you see more Autothrusters than you see Expert Handling on the table.

I don't know for sure if the stats/point cost ratio is better than the rookie pilot, but considering that it has two modifications worth of 4 point upgrades on the card while the point cost is only few more points than the Rookie; I'm willing to bet that the rookie is toast as well.

I find the easiest way to dissect the numbers is to just look at the predicted and actual cost columns of each specific pilot. The predicted cost is weighed heavily on the jousting value, but also takes into account other specifics (such as pilot ability where applicable, pilot skill, etc.).

So taken by itself, a ship's "jousting value" is not enough to determine how well it will perform on the table?

The two have a very strong correlation

It's a pretty good rule of thumb to measure by

A jousting value tells you how well a ship is predicted to do if the game didn't involve maneuvering. They're not perfect, but usually they're a passable indication of how much more you need to get out of a ship compared to some slow lumbering thing that shoots and is shot every turn.

Meanwhile the expansions are likely only coming to hobby stores and such, and won't even show up until the big day.

If they are only coming to hobby stores on 04 Sept, then my local FLGS owner has one of the world's best poker faces.

so do we eventually get any other FO or resistance fighters? as in "JJ versions" .... thinking a resistance buffed falcon would be deadly! or E-wing? Tie advanced? super B wing???? whats next????? just seems like TOO big of a buff for the X-wing and ties... aka power creep.. but yeah i am still going to get multiples of them...

Meanwhile the expansions are likely only coming to hobby stores and such, and won't even show up until the big day.

If they are only coming to hobby stores on 04 Sept, then my local FLGS owner has one of the world's best poker faces.

yeah more than likely ONLY appearing in BIG box retailers and perhaps a few of the bigger dealers like MM or cool stuff..

so do we eventually get any other FO or resistance fighters? as in "JJ versions" .... thinking a resistance buffed falcon would be deadly! or E-wing? Tie advanced? super B wing???? whats next????? just seems like TOO big of a buff for the X-wing and ties... aka power creep.. but yeah i am still going to get multiples of them...

Sounds like a store mishap, and also, the new deck replaces the old one. Slight bummer on that.

Only if you have both.

So what about the old core set cards. Are they still going to be sold. Seems counter productive unless they are them to the expansion packs.

How about the new asteroids are they interchangeable with the old ones.

Sounds like a store mishap, and also, the new deck replaces the old one. Slight bummer on that.

Only if you have both.

shows up to worlds with old damage deck

says he never bought core set 2.0

gets laughed out of ffg headquarters

1) Zero proof of that.

2) That would never happen. He would be given one by FFG if need be.

Sounds like a store mishap, and also, the new deck replaces the old one. Slight bummer on that.

Only if you have both.

shows up to worlds with old damage deck

says he never bought core set 2.0

gets laughed out of ffg headquarters

Tournament rules aren't out yet so we have no idea how it will be handled. If the reprinted original core set has the new damage deck, I wouldn't be surprised if FFG phases out the old deck and by this time next year the old deck won't be tournament legal.

Always.

Seek and ye shall find.

Soooo it looks like [redacted] on anything with an Astromech slot will function like an Adv Sensor B-wing barrel rolling without using an action... Whoa.

Need to perform a green for it to works. Most things with an astromech slot are limited in green.

Either way IMHO the stat line is better than the E-wing and its point cost is less so yeah a much better ship than what we got before. I also think the action bar will make it more powerful.

It trades away a point of Agility to get a point of hull. I don't see that as being a better statline, it's just a more predictable statline. The action bar on the T-70 is nice because of boost allowing Autothrusters, but once you put thrusters on you are looking at a one point difference and I think that two dice with Autothrusters is probably going to be slightly worse (but more reliable) than 3 dice without it in situations that the thrusters kick in. The T-70 lacks the Evade action which the E-Wing has. The E-Wing also gets the System slot which has a lot of strong options, we'll need to see what sort of upgrades come along for the Tech slot to see how that compares. So far the one we know about seems good but I'm not sure it's as good as an FCS for the same price.

The big advantage that the T-70 has over the E-Wing is that it has a generic with an EPT slot.

Soooo it looks like [redacted] on anything with an Astromech slot will function like an Adv Sensor B-wing barrel rolling without using an action... Whoa.

Need to perform a green for it to works. Most things with an astromech slot are limited in green.

So BB-8 on an E-wing with Advanced Sensors. Can you really perform 2 actions before you reveal a green maneuver (or 3)? Can Ethan, BB-88 BR, Adv sensor Focus, then Push to Evade, do his green maneuver and clear his stress? All the while not giving a **** that he's blocked?

R5-X3 is a bit interesting on a TLT Y-wing. It allows you to shoot on a rock for a round. Since you ignore obstacles I assume you cannot be obstructed or obstruct an attack?

Think of jousting value as evaluating each ship only considering the attack, agility, hull, and shields. Based on that, it assigns a "price" (the jousting value) for the ship.

So taken by itself a ship's "jousting value" is not enough to determine how well it will perform on the table - all it does is "assign a price" to a ship?

For all intensive purposes, just ignore the jousting values...

Correct. It assigns a price to the ship at its lowest possible value w/o any upgrades, dial, actions, etc considered outside of its stat line (Attack, agility, etc).

So in post #69 of this thread, I stated that "jousting values" are barely worth a grain of salt when it comes to playing a ship on the table.

In post #73, you replied and stated that "ships with better jousting values tend to be the ships seen most in tournaments".

After a few more posts, you're now agreeing with me that we can ignore "jousting values" and that they are not enough to determine how well a ship will perform on the table.

Therefore post #69 still stands - we can ignore a ship's "jousting value" as it has no bearing on how that ship will play on the table.

Wow. So you dragged me through all that so you could play dumb long enough to have me talk in circles and effectively negate what I originally said? Even though this whole time I was trying to genuinely help you understand something I didn't fully understand myself?

That's pretty pompous. And just fyi, I asked you to ignore jousting value because from how I was reading your posts, it just wasn't getting through to you, so I figured I'd go with the more simply understood predicted vs actual costs.

But either way, congratulations I guess, you made me feel a fool.

Soooo it looks like [redacted] on anything with an Astromech slot will function like an Adv Sensor B-wing barrel rolling without using an action... Whoa.

Need to perform a green for it to works. Most things with an astromech slot are limited in green.

So BB-8 on an E-wing with Advanced Sensors. Can you really perform 2 actions before you reveal a green maneuver (or 3)? Can Ethan, BB-88 BR, Adv sensor Focus, then Push to Evade, do his green maneuver and clear his stress? All the while not giving a **** that he's blocked?

R5-X3 is a bit interesting on a TLT Y-wing. It allows you to shoot on a rock for a round. Since you ignore obstacles I assume you cannot be obstructed or obstruct an attack?

You'd have to use Advanced Sensors first. Advanced Sensors is before you reveal the dial and BB-8 is after you reveal. Both actions would be before you performed the maneuver. Toss PTL on there and you can do 3 actions before moving and clear the stress after you perform the maneuver that you revealed.

You skip your "perform action" step after using Advanced Sensors.

Soooo it looks like [redacted] on anything with an Astromech slot will function like an Adv Sensor B-wing barrel rolling without using an action... Whoa.

Need to perform a green for it to works. Most things with an astromech slot are limited in green.

So BB-8 on an E-wing with Advanced Sensors. Can you really perform 2 actions before you reveal a green maneuver (or 3)? Can Ethan, BB-88 BR, Adv sensor Focus, then Push to Evade, do his green maneuver and clear his stress? All the while not giving a **** that he's blocked?

R5-X3 is a bit interesting on a TLT Y-wing. It allows you to shoot on a rock for a round. Since you ignore obstacles I assume you cannot be obstructed or obstruct an attack?

You'd have to use Advanced Sensors first. Advanced Sensors is before you reveal the dial and BB-8 is after you reveal. Both actions would be before you performed the maneuver. Toss PTL on there and you can do 3 actions before moving and clear the stress after you perform the maneuver that you revealed.

So I had the order off. Still 3 actions a turn before you even move, and you end up not stressed. Not too shabby. It is 8 points for that combo, so probably not very practical.

Right, the mathwing discussion is kind of getting off topic, but here's my attempt at an explanation.

A ship's jousting value is a points value derived solely from it's basic statline of Red Dice/Green Dice/Hull/Shields, generated by comparing it to a Tie Figher's statline. For a jousting ship like a B-wing, Z-95, or T-65 X-wing, this number should be close to the ship's actual point value (The fact that the X-wings is very much not, at 17.8 points, is why the classic X-wing has a problem). Related to this is a ship's jousting efficiency, which compares that jousting value to that of an Academy pilot(The original premier jousting ship). For Jousting ships, this gives us a pretty good indication of a ship's competitiveness, but Arc Dodgers and Turrets are a little more complicated. These ships have very poor jousting efficiencies, because they pay a significant number of points for a stronger maneuver dial, movement actions, and/or the ability to shot things not in their primary arc. Required Efficiency is how much those traits (and PS bids) need to make up for. Major Juggler has since calculated a few more statistics, which allow him to indicate how well a ship is actually able to perform by taking things like barrel roll, strong dials, and turrets into account (These numbers are helpfully near the beginning of his tables now)

So, Jousting Efficiency does play an important role in a ship's success at tournaments, but it is not and has never been called the be-all and end-all of a ship's design (At least not by mathwing's creator or the people who take time to understand it). However, when used with other statistics incorporating a ship's dial, re-positioning actions, and pilot skill, it can give you a pretty good idea of whether or not a ship is competitive.