I'm more interested in this Hypothetical:

X-Wing and Armada are released, Wave 1, Wave 2, at exactly the same time, rather than years apart.

Which would be more popular then, in your opinion, not having Inertia behind one or the other?

I just bought an Armada core set. I have multiples of every X-Wing ship including the Huges (CR-90 and Imp Raider). Not to mention all the stuff I had made on Shapeways.

I know if they came out at the same time, I'd have bought them both in even-ish amounts (and likely no Shapeways... well, maybe some!), but I was already waist deep in X-wing.

Only thing making this acceptable to my own view of multiple plasti-crack games is that I am selling off all my Advanced Squad Leader stuff (Thousands of dollars of stuff, literally). And some one nice posted that Jet.com link for a super cheap Armada core set, and I figured I'd finally give it a go.

Its not that Armada is more expensive, its more like Armada is another game to feed on top of X-Wing plus whatever else. Not Armada's fault, just late to the party.

IMHO.

Armada is teetering..

you can argue it till you are blue in the face, but everyone, even at GenCon, (I was there...) are saying the exact same things.

The Rebels are overpointed, underpowered and essentially, at this point, completely worthless vs any upright human being playing imperials that can tie his/her own shoes without drooling.

If you are playing Imperials, and you use fighters... you're doing it wrong.

ACM is just stupidly overpowered and underpointed and hey, let's combo that with another imp card that GAURANTEES it goes off EVERY shooting phase! Isnt that meta kids?

Imperial Ships have more shields, run with all black die attacks.. and are CHEAPER then the red/black die counterparts. Cause yeah.. EVERYONE runs 3R/3B instead of 6B amirite Imps???

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Wave 2 better see a SERIOUS beefing of the Rebels, or this game is toast. It was pretty much announced last week at our shop that no more Tournaments will be played/supported until AFTER Wave 2. Even store owners cant generate interest in the game when its so far out of wack. There is now just 1 store left within 100 miles that plays Armada regularly... and they cant even keep a weekly league play going. It's a scattered person here and there..

I TRIED. I really did. I was the one who really pushed this game in my area. Now I have to sit and stammer through weak justifications on why the Rebels are so horribly outmatched at every level in every catagory....

I can only hope for the best.. Ive got alot of money invested here, as do many others.. but these ridiculous launch delays followed by horrible balancing issues and going RIGHT down the same path XWing did with broken equipment cards.. I dont have much hope left.

Yeah not sure why you convinced with the balance issue, Just look at Nationals. More to do with the higher costs and longer slower games.

See the "Armada going to make it thread"

Armada is teetering..

you can argue it till you are blue in the face, but everyone, even at GenCon, (I was there...) are saying the exact same things.

The Rebels are overpointed, underpowered and essentially, at this point, completely worthless vs any upright human being playing imperials that can tie his/her own shoes without drooling.

If you are playing Imperials, and you use fighters... you're doing it wrong.

ACM is just stupidly overpowered and underpointed and hey, let's combo that with another imp card that GAURANTEES it goes off EVERY shooting phase! Isnt that meta kids?

Imperial Ships have more shields, run with all black die attacks.. and are CHEAPER then the red/black die counterparts. Cause yeah.. EVERYONE runs 3R/3B instead of 6B amirite Imps???

====

Wave 2 better see a SERIOUS beefing of the Rebels, or this game is toast. It was pretty much announced last week at our shop that no more Tournaments will be played/supported until AFTER Wave 2. Even store owners cant generate interest in the game when its so far out of wack. There is now just 1 store left within 100 miles that plays Armada regularly... and they cant even keep a weekly league play going. It's a scattered person here and there..

I TRIED. I really did. I was the one who really pushed this game in my area. Now I have to sit and stammer through weak justifications on why the Rebels are so horribly outmatched at every level in every catagory....

I can only hope for the best.. Ive got alot of money invested here, as do many others.. but these ridiculous launch delays followed by horrible balancing issues and going RIGHT down the same path XWing did with broken equipment cards.. I dont have much hope left.

Yeah not sure why you convinced with the balance issue, Just look at Nationals. More to do with the higher costs, starving for wave 2, bare core set, and longer slower games.

See the "Armada going to make it thread"

If anything, as expressed earlier; it is the delays in product that is creating a waning interest in me as a player. then again, this seems to be endemic to FFG currently, so I might as well just live with it.

I think it's the fact that Wave 2 was announced ad spoiled a very long time before dropping in stores If it hadn't been, then the wait would not be as long

The problem there is that we would have endless threads debating, demanding, and whining about whether the ISD will be included and threatened rage quits if it wasn't in wave 2. If I've learned anything from the internet it's there is no making people happy. If wave 2 was out already, we'd have people complaining the waves were too quick making the game too expensive.

I agree, I feel Xwing is coming out too fast... Patience is good but Wave 1 should have been released with the core and wave 2 should be out at wave 1 release. 2 a year releases seems ideal for me going forward.

I would say that right now Armada seems more stable, still not happy on the fact that squadrons are the point sink of the game. Still thinks this is a better Star Trek game than a Star Wars.

I guess we will see what happens after wave 2.

Can you point out the logical fallacies?

Sure

First his whole post is a big anecdotal fallacy because he has no facts to back up his claim. For example Armada is not teetering, it is in fact per the last survey taken the 3rd best selling miniature game. The only evidence we have at all fly's directly in contradiction of the opening statement.

He also makes the Argument from authority because he is presenting his statements as facts not opinions. "but everyone, even at GenCon, (I was there...) are saying the exact same things." and "If you are playing Imperials, and you use fighters... you're doing it wrong."

I could go on but I've made my point.

The OP is making statements and not willing to accept any sort of proof to the contrary, because these are all established and immutable facts, not opinions per his post.

The OP has a point... it may be selling fine, it just is not hitting the table as much for various reasons.

Can you point out the logical fallacies?

Sure

First his whole post is a big anecdotal fallacy because he has no facts to back up his claim. For example Armada is not teetering, it is in fact per the last survey taken the 3rd best selling miniature game. The only evidence we have at all fly's directly in contradiction of the opening statement.

He also makes the Argument from authority because he is presenting his statements as facts not opinions. "but everyone, even at GenCon, (I was there...) are saying the exact same things." and "If you are playing Imperials, and you use fighters... you're doing it wrong."

I could go on but I've made my point.

The OP is making statements and not willing to accept any sort of proof to the contrary, because these are all established and immutable facts, not opinions per his post.

The OP has a point... it may be selling fine, it just is not hitting the table as much for various reasons.

Can you point out the logical fallacies?

Sure

First his whole post is a big anecdotal fallacy because he has no facts to back up his claim. For example Armada is not teetering, it is in fact per the last survey taken the 3rd best selling miniature game. The only evidence we have at all fly's directly in contradiction of the opening statement.

He also makes the Argument from authority because he is presenting his statements as facts not opinions. "but everyone, even at GenCon, (I was there...) are saying the exact same things." and "If you are playing Imperials, and you use fighters... you're doing it wrong."

I could go on but I've made my point.

The OP is making statements and not willing to accept any sort of proof to the contrary, because these are all established and immutable facts, not opinions per his post.

The OP has a point... it may be selling fine, it just is not hitting the table as much for various reasons.

How many people were at US Nationals? 90+? That seems really good for a 5 month old game.

I dont understand your point. There is a bit of a difference from Nationals at Gencon to your average gamestore, ya think?

Can you point out the logical fallacies?

Sure

First his whole post is a big anecdotal fallacy because he has no facts to back up his claim. For example Armada is not teetering, it is in fact per the last survey taken the 3rd best selling miniature game. The only evidence we have at all fly's directly in contradiction of the opening statement.

He also makes the Argument from authority because he is presenting his statements as facts not opinions. "but everyone, even at GenCon, (I was there...) are saying the exact same things." and "If you are playing Imperials, and you use fighters... you're doing it wrong."

I could go on but I've made my point.

The OP is making statements and not willing to accept any sort of proof to the contrary, because these are all established and immutable facts, not opinions per his post.

The OP has a point... it may be selling fine, it just is not hitting the table as much for various reasons.

How many people were at US Nationals? 90+? That seems really good for a 5 month old game.

I dont understand your point. There is a bit of a difference from Nationals at Gencon to your average gamestore, ya think?

...

Not really true, countless popular games and under the radar games take the world by storm. And with the exposure, the sales, and distribution of Armada, there seems to be legitimate issues. It has been described as the biggest FFG release (sales) of all time per the FFG Gencon presentation if I am not mistaken. The serious problems have been already outlined with the state of the game, but they do not reflect the OP reasoning at all.

It blatantly obvious why FF is doing the pre-release prize kits for wave 2, they absolutely know interest is waning due to the delays, etc.

...

Not really true, countless popular games and under the radar games take the world by storm. And with the exposure, the sales, and distribution of Armada, there seems to be legitimate issues. It has been described as the biggest FFG release (sales) of all time per the FFG Gencon presentation if I am not mistaken. The serious problems have been already outlined with the state of the game, but they do not reflect the OP reasoning at all.

It blatantly obvious why FF is doing the pre-release prize kits for wave 2, they absolutely know interest is waning due to the delays, etc.

The issues brought up by the OP are actually easily handled if you know what you are doing and what to expect. It's not hard. As I have stated before, Tactics Tactics, Tactics. This is a game of skill and decisions, you make the wrong one somewhere and you can lose that easily. That is what makes this game fun.

Those who just want more and more new things need to understand that FFG is purposefully holding back for several likely reasons.

First, they want the game still balanced. I have faced a GenCon Special. It's not hard to counter but it takes nerves of steel and a good eye, not to mention patience to do it. It will also go by the wayside when wave 2 hits soon.

Second, they want to delay due to not wanting to over saturate the game with ships. They are taking it slow because this game has a lot more potential with what it has then people realize.

This game is simply fantastic. It is a huge step to get into but it is worth it.

I can think of a number of reasons Armada isn't as widely played as X-Wing but I also know there are people who are just holding out for the ISDs and more ship variety. I'm confident the Armada scene will improve after Wave II hits and as we progress through the waves.

...

Not really true, countless popular games and under the radar games take the world by storm.

Could you name 3 games that were more popular than Armada within their first 5 months?

...

Not really true, countless popular games and under the radar games take the world by storm.

Could you name 3 games that were more popular than Armada within their first 5 months?

It is hard because wargame get has jumped up in popularity in no small part due to X-Wing and games like Warmachine and Malifaux. When they came out, when people thought of wargames, people thought of GW games or Flames of War. . .

Now you have Infinity, Dystopian Wars, Malifaux Warmachine, Dust Tactics, and so much more.

Each of the games I just listed other than X-Wing came out at 2010 or earlier. I don't think any hit the 3rd best selling spot in 5 months though. Warmachine might have but I can't find any data for it

I was with the Privateer guys when they launched in the UK. The store I worked for brought them over to show the game off. Back when it was just 4 starter boxes and a rules pamphlet. It took a couple of years to really break through and establish itself as a direct competitor to 40k, WFB and Magic the Gathering.

X-Wing was an instant runaway success b/c of it's IP, simple (but deep) rules, and easy accessibility (Quick games, easy setup, lite transport).

Armada has the same IP, still simple (but deeper rules), accessibility is the only place it lacks. I.E. "come on over to my house and play!"

I think it's silly to compare the success of Armada vs X-Wing when....

-Sales for Armada are good

-big tourneys are doing well considering first year

-Your only evidence is anecdotal b/c you dont see people playing Armada in YOUR store

The game IS successful, it is NOT teetering. To suggest that is nonsense. I suppose Cards Against Humanity is teetering b/c noone plays it in your store and there is no tournament scene, eh?

It's a fledgling game, give it a chance. It's new, its good, and it's Star Wars! Fail? LOL.

...

It blatantly obvious why FF is doing the pre-release prize kits for wave 2, they absolutely know interest is waning due to the delays, etc.

I disagree

Many companies regularly do pre-release events for their games. FFG did a pre-release for X-Wing just last year with their Assault at Imdarr, and I don't think anybody could suggest X-Wing was in trouble. Magic the Gathering has a pre-release weekend a week before every new set (3-4 times a year), it's simply how they market and generate interest.

...

It blatantly obvious why FF is doing the pre-release prize kits for wave 2, they absolutely know interest is waning due to the delays, etc.

I disagree

Many companies regularly do pre-release events for their games. FFG did a pre-release for X-Wing just last year with their Assault at Imdarr, and I don't think anybody could suggest X-Wing was in trouble. Magic the Gathering has a pre-release weekend a week before every new set (3-4 times a year), it's simply how they market and generate interest.

Yeah, they probably had this envisaged from the start to launch wave 2. just happens to be a little later than they thought.....

...

It blatantly obvious why FF is doing the pre-release prize kits for wave 2, they absolutely know interest is waning due to the delays, etc.

I disagree

Many companies regularly do pre-release events for their games. FFG did a pre-release for X-Wing just last year with their Assault at Imdarr, and I don't think anybody could suggest X-Wing was in trouble. Magic the Gathering has a pre-release weekend a week before every new set (3-4 times a year), it's simply how they market and generate interest.

Yeah, they probably had this envisaged from the start to launch wave 2. just happens to be a little later than they thought.....

wow, 10 pages? guess we don't have much to talk about huh? Maybe the game is stalling in his area. what he says may be true, from a certain point of view. I will say, as others have, that the long delay in releases has hurt the momentum of the game, and while there are many options, I do feel that it feels as if it is a little incomplete. that does not mean that it isn't a great game as it is, because it is, but many of us also play xwing, and their releases are a fire hose by comparison. It really feels like armada is the poor step child of the 2.

Yes, I know Xwing is a more mature product

Yes, I know it is their big money maker

We have wave 6, wave 7 just hit, wave 8 is on the way, and there is, at a minimum, a new core set coming as well, all prior to the second wave that it feels like armada needs to really get going. (forgot the raider)

The big wave 1 delay hurt interest a lot in my area. (not saying FFG could do anything about that) now, we are running into the same thing with wave 2.

It's a star wars capital ship combat game without the ISD and Home One?

So, I don't think the sky is falling and I don't think the game is doomed. It is a great game, and I prefer slower releases that are well play tested to rushed releases that are botched and have to be nerfed later on.

I love Armada and Xwing, I want to see them both do well. Let's use that "at the printer" bandwith to put ISDs on the table instead of more obscure EU ships like the punisher for Xwing.

If they want Armada to do well, show it some love FFG

Having said all that, I cannot wait for the ISD ! that thing, so far, looks like it is everything an ISD should be. powerful, intimidating, and expensive. Impressive, most impressive.

wow, 10 pages? guess we don't have much to talk about huh? Maybe the game is stalling in his area. what he says may be true, from a certain point of view. I will say, as others have, that the long delay in releases has hurt the momentum of the game, and while there are many options, I do feel that it feels as if it is a little incomplete. that does not mean that it isn't a great game as it is, because it is, but many of us also play xwing, and their releases are a fire hose by comparison. It really feels like armada is the poor step child of the 2.

Yes, I know Xwing is a more mature product

Yes, I know it is their big money maker

We have wave 6, wave 7 just hit, wave 8 is on the way, and there is, at a minimum, a new core set coming as well, all prior to the second wave that it feels like armada needs to really get going. (forgot the raider)

The big wave 1 delay hurt interest a lot in my area. (not saying FFG could do anything about that) now, we are running into the same thing with wave 2.

It's a star wars capital ship combat game without the ISD and Home One?

So, I don't think the sky is falling and I don't think the game is doomed. It is a great game, and I prefer slower releases that are well play tested to rushed releases that are botched and have to be nerfed later on.

I love Armada and Xwing, I want to see them both do well. Let's use that "at the printer" bandwith to put ISDs on the table instead of more obscure EU ships like the punisher for Xwing.

If they want Armada to do well, show it some love FFG

Having said all that, I cannot wait for the ISD ! that thing, so far, looks like it is everything an ISD should be. powerful, intimidating, and expensive. Impressive, most impressive.

Uhhhh,,, X-Wing Wave VI came out in February. Before Armada came out. Before they officially announced Wave 2 (which was announced in April). Wave VII just came out now. 6 months between waves. Not much of a firehose there (yes, I know there is more stuff coming fast according to initial release projections).

Your opining for the ISD is moot at this point. They are already printing it, full speed ahead, and it will be in stores by the end of October.