Both the GM screens for Age and Edge give great pointers for helping Power up Nemesis level opponents. That having been said for some encounters I feel like I want for a little more than 'minion ablative wounds' & 'Extra Initiative slots for a nemesis based on the number of players'...

I think the "Lair" and "Legendary Actions" action rules from 5e work can with very easily be ported over with little fuss, but can anyone help me brainstorm good/thematic "Lair" and "Legendary Actions" for Star Wars Nemeses.

Thanks,

-Collinsas

Going to need more info on DNDNext man.

What is the Lair and Legendary Actions for a start haha

In answer to your response though it may be useful if post the the text of Lair and Legendary actions from the free downloadable basic monster rules, to help provide the background for my question.

"Legendary Actions:

A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions—called legendary actions—outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. A legendary creature regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It isn’t required to use its legendary actions, and it can’t use legendary actions while incapacitated."

"Lair Actions:

If a legendary creature has lair actions, it can use them to harness the ambient magic in its lair. On initiative count 20 (losing all initiative ties), the creature can use one of its lair action options, or forgo using any of them that round."

The following is an example clipped out of the 'Adult Red Dragon' from the same free PDF:

"Legendary Actions:

The dragon can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. The dragon regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Detect:

The dragon makes a Wisdom (Perception) check.

Tail Attack:

The dragon makes a tail attack.

Wing Attack (Costs 2 Actions):

The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 10 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC 22 Dexterity saving throw or take 15 (2d6 + 8) bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed."

"Lair Actions:

On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), the dragon takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects; the dragon can’t use the same effect two rounds in a row:

Magma erupts from a point on the ground the dragon can see within 120 feet of it, creating a 20-foot-high, 5-foot-radius geyser. Each creature in the geyser’s area must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw, taking 21 (6d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

A tremor shakes the lair in a 60-foot radius around the dragon. Each creature other than the dragon on the ground in that area must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.

Volcanic gases form a cloud in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point the dragon can see within 120 feet of it. The sphere spreads around corners, and its area is lightly obscured. It lasts until initiative count 20 on the next round. Each creature that starts its turn in the cloud must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the end of its turn. While poisoned in this way, a creature is incapacitated."

Here is a link to the PDF on WotC's site for more info:

http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMDnDBasicRules_v0.1.pdf#page=8

I like the idea of Legendary Actions, seems like they would definitely fit. Lair actions will probably be a little harder but could definitely be included. I'll expand more on this post when I'm not on my phone

Laptop Edit: I think the Legendary actions is easily accomplished, giving Nemesis' a "floating" initiative spot to take whenever they wish (It wouldn't be able to interrupt turns but could be placed anywhere in the order on any round) gets this done pretty easily and makes for a very bad ass villain that your PC's should be very afraid of.

Lair actions, the only way I see this working as others have stated are things like automated defenses or prepared traps (ala the Rancor Pit from RotJ). I can see this really working well with the right Nemesis, like a tinkerer or gadget guy who's set up his HQ to be very very dangerous to the unsuspecting fringer.

I think this is fine for creatures, but for normal humanoid adversaries I think it can stretch credulity. It can also drive a player to ask...legitimately...when they can learn to do such things. For most Nemeses these things need to be externalized and made part of the landscape or as assistance from allies.

I think the Lair Actions can be easily translated in terms of automated defense systems and booby traps that go off during a fight, or even during a social encounter.

"Master Luke! You're standing on a...."

I agree with whafrog on having multiple attacks in a non-creature nemesis. It can be hard to challenge a group of PCs with a lone "Boss" character, but it really doesn't make sense for a boss to be alone in the last room after the PCs sweep the rest of his hideout. He'd almost always have minions and maybe even a rival level bodyguard.

I think the Adversary talent is a much overlooked NPC ability. The possibility of generating Despair on PC rolls gives a couple new options, including added maneuvers (though not actions) and will work well in conjunction with Lair Actions.

The Lair actions are, I believe, to showcase that the landscape itself is dangerous. The Villain is aware of the dangers and so they don't bother them, but the PCs are effected by them. Its a great way of making a the environment come to life.

They could be natural, maybe a cave-in/collapse or perhaps as GM Stark mentioned this could be a mechanical danger by design.

I think its a great way to add more excitement to a fight without adding a minion group. You may even allow players the opportunity to address these dangers- a non-combat objective in the combat, which is always cool.

Legendary actions are hard to really say are different from the "extra initiative per PC" deal. I would maybe just come up with a good list of actions and have them on hand for any boss fight. Let them do these in between PC turns and have them happen without a roll, to keep the pacing fast and the tension higher?

I'm curious, but what exactly do these actions give to the game, that cannot be done with a despair result?

Don't get me wrong, i don't think the idea is bad, but adding a new mechanic to the game where, in my opinion it need not be, is a waste of energy.

That being said, creating a list of despair results for a particular foe is not a bad idea.

I'm curious, but what exactly do these actions give to the game, that cannot be done with a despair result?

The problem here is you can easily go through an entire session without triggering a Despair. Most of mine don't see any, and I flip DP regularly. So relying on a dice result can easily result in the foe going down before anything happens, which seems to be what a lot of people are complaining about. And besides, a Despair is overstated...it really only makes you run out of ammo, which is a pretty small effect compared to lava belches and toxic gas clouds.

Basically, adversaries need pre-planned outs and ways to change the scene. It's not directly related to D&D5, but what I like about the D&D4 (and AngryDM modification) boss rules is that triggering some effects are guaranteed. I think they're all hit point-based, but it wouldn't have to be. The intent is to increase the dramatic tension by changing the scene, maybe knocking the party flat while the desperate adversary escapes temporarily through a ventilation shaft, only to ambush the party in a tight place as they search for him.

I feel in some cases that 'Legendary Actions' can be a bit more balanced and thematic than simply giving the Nemesis additional initiative passed. That having been stated both approaches I feel are perfectly valid; in some cases I do see giving a nemesis an addition activation as suitable legendary Action (although a 2 cost action for most NPC, like the Dragon's wing attack).

On the perspective of balance, adding addition passes to a Hutt Lord is not nearly the same as allowing a Sith Lord to make use of additional initiative phases.

As for the being thematic; The 'Legendary Actions' also allow a nemesis to take more "Fluffy" but mechanically suboptimal choices during its active turn that make the encounter more interesting and still keep the encounter challenging to the players. They also aid in adding verity to major combat encounters, so that engaging with Darth Vader feel mechanically distinct from fighting another generic "Inquisitor", in addition to the narrative flair that a GM adds to the fight. Granted Solo boss encounters are uncommon so this isn't a massive problem, but it can arise from time to time.

On 'Lair Actions' Diversion Architect has the right of it; Lair Actions are environment focused, more even more specificity they come into play when you are fighting something on its home turf. A prime example of adapting this into Star Wars is looking at 'Empire', where Luke is fighting Darth Vader in a location that Vader has selected: so example lair actions would be attempting to freeze Luke in Carbonite, steam blasting into the area obscuring Luke view, etc...

With both of these, I agree that Despair Icons could be used to provide similar effects, although the issue with that as 'Whafrog' pointed out is that even if the GM is trying to add red dice are hard to come by, and so by extension Despair.

On 'Lair Actions' Diversion Architect has the right of it; Lair Actions are environment focused, more even more specificity they come into play when you are fighting something on its home turf. A prime example of adapting this into Star Wars is looking at 'Empire', where Luke is fighting Darth Vader in a location that Vader has selected: so example lair actions would be attempting to freeze Luke in Carbonite, steam blasting into the area obscuring Luke view, etc...

With both of these, I agree that Despair Icons could be used to provide similar effects, although the issue with that as 'Whafrog' pointed out is that even if the GM is trying to add red dice are hard to come by, and so by extension Despair.

That's why I like Adversary. There will always be a red die when attacking an opponent with Adversary.

Also, in an environment that the enemy controls, the environment effects do not necessarily require Despair to trigger. Some may be 2 or 3 Threat to activate, or in the case of surprises the enemy has specifically prepared, the GM can use Triumphs or a number of Advantage.

I feel in some cases that 'Legendary Actions' can be a bit more balanced and thematic than simply giving the Nemesis additional initiative passed. That having been stated both approaches I feel are perfectly valid; in some cases I do see giving a nemesis an addition activation as suitable legendary Action (although a 2 cost action for most NPC, like the Dragon's wing attack).

On the perspective of balance, adding addition passes to a Hutt Lord is not nearly the same as allowing a Sith Lord to make use of additional initiative phases.

As for the being thematic; The 'Legendary Actions' also allow a nemesis to take more "Fluffy" but mechanically suboptimal choices during its active turn that make the encounter more interesting and still keep the encounter challenging to the players. They also aid in adding verity to major combat encounters, so that engaging with Darth Vader feel mechanically distinct from fighting another generic "Inquisitor", in addition to the narrative flair that a GM adds to the fight. Granted Solo boss encounters are uncommon so this isn't a massive problem, but it can arise from time to time.

On 'Lair Actions' Diversion Architect has the right of it; Lair Actions are environment focused, more even more specificity they come into play when you are fighting something on its home turf. A prime example of adapting this into Star Wars is looking at 'Empire', where Luke is fighting Darth Vader in a location that Vader has selected: so example lair actions would be attempting to freeze Luke in Carbonite, steam blasting into the area obscuring Luke view, etc...

With both of these, I agree that Despair Icons could be used to provide similar effects, although the issue with that as 'Whafrog' pointed out is that even if the GM is trying to add red dice are hard to come by, and so by extension Despair.

Using additional passes for "fluff" actions is very thematic in Star Wars. In many running combats, the antagonist is throwing switches, activating doors, changing positions and interacting with the environment rather than straight attacking. As cool as it is to jump from one platform to another, the NPC would likely be best served simply by attacking a combat-weak PC and potentially dropping them. These 'additional' passes could be used to allow more thematic, fluff-based, actions which better fit the cinematic quality emphasized in this system without penalizing the NPC mechanically by forcing them to use their limited combat actions to do so.

On 'Lair Actions' Diversion Architect has the right of it; Lair Actions are environment focused, more even more specificity they come into play when you are fighting something on its home turf. A prime example of adapting this into Star Wars is looking at 'Empire', where Luke is fighting Darth Vader in a location that Vader has selected: so example lair actions would be attempting to freeze Luke in Carbonite, steam blasting into the area obscuring Luke view, etc...

With both of these, I agree that Despair Icons could be used to provide similar effects, although the issue with that as 'Whafrog' pointed out is that even if the GM is trying to add red dice are hard to come by, and so by extension Despair.

That's why I like Adversary. There will always be a red die when attacking an opponent with Adversary.

Also, in an environment that the enemy controls, the environment effects do not necessarily require Despair to trigger. Some may be 2 or 3 Threat to activate, or in the case of surprises the enemy has specifically prepared, the GM can use Triumphs or a number of Advantage.

I like the idea of using threats as triggers instead of despairs. Just keep in mind that without solid defenses and a few ranks of adversary, once the PCs reach a few hundred XP post creation, threats in combat tend to go out the window.

Personally, I see actions and setbacks the villian does as results on the dice rolls. Threat, despair can all simulate any thing that arises.

D&D is meant to play differently that this star wars system. The round length is purposefully left without a definite length. D&D's is not. Rolling dice to attack a for does not necessarily equate one shot being fired. However it can.

As a GM throwing setback dice liberally is encouraged. The players have lots of talents to remove them. Describe the situation creatively and a need for a defined mechanic is zero.

It must be said, that while i disagree with the need for this, i understand why it is felt that it is needed. If it works for you, that ia great, bit i wantes to offer a different perspective.

A major villian shookd never be only rolling one challenge(red) die. Instead should be rolling several. If itnis a climatic showdown, prepare some effects that trigger when depair and threat are rolled. Let the players see these, and when the result comes up make the players choose what happens. I find of the players choose, it can get them involved in telling a story.

I think this is fine for creatures, but for normal humanoid adversaries I think it can stretch credulity. It can also drive a player to ask...legitimately...when they can learn to do such things. For most Nemeses these things need to be externalized and made part of the landscape or as assistance from allies.

Indeed. SW is mostly a high-tech genre. Darth Vader may look like he's standing at the gates of hell in the carbon freezing chamber on Bespin, but it's all tech -- that's part of what makes SW so awesome and unique. That kind "mundane" set design should be a part of every encounter with major villains.

Also, Nemeses can always be given an end-of-round action as well, and if they're soloing 4+ PC's they absolutely must have that action to be any kind of threat.

I'm curious, but what exactly do these actions give to the game, that cannot be done with a despair result?

Don't get me wrong, i don't think the idea is bad, but adding a new mechanic to the game where, in my opinion it need not be, is a waste of energy.

Basically, adversaries need pre-planned outs and ways to change the scene. It's not directly related to D&D5, but what I like about the D&D4 (and AngryDM modification) boss rules is that triggering some effects are guaranteed. I think they're all hit point-based, but it wouldn't have to be. The intent is to increase the dramatic tension by changing the scene, maybe knocking the party flat while the desperate adversary escapes temporarily through a ventilation shaft, only to ambush the party in a tight place as they search for him.

I believe that both of these statements have validity. You don't want to overcomplicate the system by adding a bunch of new rules, but you also want to provide unique and interesting encounters. I think the middle ground is the place to be here. Your BBEGs should have a few neat tricks up their sleeve and the environment should offer some chances for shifts in the encounter. However, I don't think you should exclusively wait for Threat of Despair to trigger these kinds of results; you definitely could use a Despair to trigger one, but you don't have to have one to make it happen. Just have them keyed up and ready to go whenever you hit a crux point in the encounter. Maybe when the PCs hit your BBEG for a critical, or reach a predetermined Wound count, or just a set number or rounds/slots/whatever, you have an event happen that forces the PCs to change up their strategy. And you can adjust how you run it based on what the event is. If it's lava erupting, maybe you just have the PC role an out of turn Vigilance check to avoid the hit. If it's a poisonous gas, Resilience checks and vision impairment. If it's the ground quake, Coordination and knocking PCs prone.

The idea is that you can (and should!) incorporate all the types of things that D&D is calling Lair and Legendary, but you don't need to create new rules to do so. Just have it happen at some point during the encounter.

Actually yea thats not a bad idea. You could just have your "list of bad things" and just apply something as often as you can. The terrain effects could help you drum up some more setback dice- which is always good.

You might just shoot for something happening every turn, with something huge (despair worthy) at the top of every round.

The effects could even assist the players in subduing the BBEG while hurting the players. Adds the notion that "****, if that tunnel hadn't collapsed when it did, we might not have walked away from that."

Hmm, I may want to just try to incorporate more environmental effects to hurt everyone always and shorten these combats by a few rounds haha.

Also, Nemeses can always be given an end-of-round action as well, and if they're soloing 4+ PC's they absolutely must have that action to be any kind of threat.

Did I miss this? Is it a RAW?

Also, Nemeses can always be given an end-of-round action as well, and if they're soloing 4+ PC's they absolutely must have that action to be any kind of threat.

Did I miss this? Is it a RAW?

They can be given the ability to act multiple times per round, but I forget where that is stated. Maybe someone with ready access to a CRB can cite the text for us.

Edit: Here we go, from the F&D beta page 237; I assume it is somewhere similar in the official texts.

A lone nemesis can have a hard time standing

up to a large party of PCs, simply because

the PCs have many more turns than the

nemesis. If an Inquisitor is facing a PC group

of 4 or more, the GM can choose to allow him

to take a second turn each round. The GM

should add one additional NPC slot to the Initiative

order at the very end of the order: the

Inquisitor may act in this turn and one other

NPC Initiative slot of his choice each round.

The rule first appeared in the EotE GM kit, so it's been around for a while, albeit in an obscure location...

I'm curious, but what exactly do these actions give to the game, that cannot be done with a despair result?

Planning and a framework for the results, I would say. Just thinking of it in these terms inspires me to map out ahead of time some clever little interactions the villain can have with their environment. And I think it's pretty good to know what the Despairs might lead to. Whilst there may be no inherent difference in what is possible, I think there is a meanginful difference between:

"Hmm, they rolled a Despair, what could happen?"

and

"Okay, a Despair will let Grievous

(1) Activate the poison gas dispensers

(2) Trigger the base alarms which summon Storm Trooper minions every round starting at one per round and increasing by one per round every turn

(3) Replace a body part from the racks of spares, re-gaining 3 wounds."

The rule first appeared in the EotE GM kit, so it's been around for a while, albeit in an obscure location...

Then I did miss it. I do have the GM kit, but not Force and Destiny (yet). Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.