I was looking through the Age of Rebellion core book and I found it striking how short the range of the sensors on starfighters are. An X-wing has a sensor range of close, so even in active mode, they can't find other ships outside of short range, which is described as "just outside of dogfighting range." This means fighters on picket duty can't see something until it's almost right on top of them?

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Also, comm range is tied sensor range, which also feels really limited when you would want to hail other vessels. I assume that the capital ships' CICs act as relays, but no independent comms beyond close range just feels odd.

Am I missing a rule, or interpreting the description wrong? Am I thinking about the range bands wrong? Usually when something seems this borked, I've missed a rule or something, but I can't find anything in this instance.

Thanks for any input.

Unfortunately, it is that bad. I suggest Emperor Norton's house rules in the EotE forum.

Unfortunately, it is that bad. I suggest Emperor Norton's house rules in the EotE forum.

Link to this house rule?

Unfortunately, it is that bad. I suggest Emperor Norton's house rules in the EotE forum.

Link to this house rule?

Here

Emperor Norton's houserule is very good for this purpose. I tend to mostly narrate sensor mechanics unless my players are looking for something in particular, so it's never been a huge deal for me, but if you need something a little more detailed this should do nicely.

Unfortunately, it is that bad. I suggest Emperor Norton's house rules in the EotE forum.

Link to this house rule?

Sorry, iPad doesn't make that easy to do...thanks Franigo!

Sensor ranges have been stupid in Star Wars RPGs since the WEG days. A Star Destroyer can be within turbolaser range of an X-Wing and and the first the X-Wing pilot will know about it is when the Imp opens fire.

Sensor ranges have been stupid in Star Wars RPGs since the WEG days. A Star Destroyer can be within turbolaser range of an X-Wing and and the first the X-Wing pilot will know about it is when the Imp opens fire.

That's why starfighters need a larger escort ship with a larger sensor range to feed them data.

Personally, I enjoy this aspect because I can "sneak" threats up to my PCs. They don't know whats there until it is at Medium range usually.

I've always assumed "Comm Range" was referring to things like "slice the enemy's systems" and not "make a call." Starfighter comms probably aren't that powerful, but in the films themselves we see Yavin Base communicate (both ways) with the starfighters on the surface of the Death Star. So they certainly reach beyond Short.

I only worry about the range of sensors/comms for doing things like slicing and detailed scans. For things like knowing that a large ship is out there at Long range hailing you, the listed Sensor Range isn't applied.

I only worry about the range of sensors/comms for doing things like slicing and detailed scans. For things like knowing that a large ship is out there at Long range hailing you, the listed Sensor Range isn't applied.

This seems like a reasonable interpretation.

Yeah, I joked that starfighters could easily outrun their own sensor range in one turn. Its one of the few parts of the rules that I think are truly broken rather than just things I changed because they weren't to my liking.

I think the starship rules were made with freighters as the default (because they started with EotE) for a player ship, and it made Fighters a bit too fragile. Most of my house rules are to make starfighters a bit more fun for players (in my estimation anyway).

To me, sensor range as given is the range needed to be at to use actions. Effectively, this is also true in personal combat - when unobstructed, you can see a lot further than you can engage. Sure, you may know there is a large ship out there, but to see which one, you need to close within sensor range and focus on it.

This is why ships identify one another when communicating, and why a large Imperial vessel might detect a PC vessel but not know who it is or be able to get a scan of what it might be carrying. Thus the ominous "unidentified vessel, this is Imperial Star Destroyer blah blah blah" that can quickly ruin your day.

I've typically run it where the sensor ranges in the book are the farthest an Average roll can be used. Every range band after the listed range adds a Difficulty. This way an X-Wing CAN detect a scout ship at extreme range, but it's much easier for the scout ship to detect the X-Wing. I also use the same modifiers for size that targeting uses.

Worked very well for us so far. We'll probably use this until/if something official come out (not that I expect it to, LOL)

I've typically run it where the sensor ranges in the book are the farthest an Average roll can be used. Every range band after the listed range adds a Difficulty. This way an X-Wing CAN detect a scout ship at extreme range, but it's much easier for the scout ship to detect the X-Wing. I also use the same modifiers for size that targeting uses.

Worked very well for us so far. We'll probably use this until/if something official come out (not that I expect it to, LOL)

I like it. It makes sense that the sensor arrays on a Star Destroyer would be that much more powerful than those on a snubfighter, but the difference in size plays a part as well - the fighter's a harder target to detect.

What about running on passive sensors? That was a bugbear of mine in the WEG days, passives had almost no range. I think the range at which you can pick up an enemy ship's sensors on your passives should be based on the enemy's sensor range, not yours (EDIT: picking up a ship that's also running on passive should be much shorter-ranged, with size mods as described by Jareth). You could have a squadron of X-Wings prowling around the edge of an Imperial task force's sensor range, trying to triangulate the Imperials' position based on passive sensor hits, with the Imperials getting sporadic faint contacts, sending TIE patrols out to investigate and so on. It could play out as a very tense cat-and-mouse scenario.

Also, comm range is tied sensor range, which also feels really limited when you would want to hail other vessels. I assume that the capital ships' CICs act as relays, but no independent comms beyond close range just feels odd.

Ship comm range = sensor range in RAW is also contradicted throughout other books. For example:

Sons of Fortune pg. 100.

Most starships have hypertransceivers to send long-range messages....Small, portable hypertransceivers are also available with ranges up to about 25 light years.

So, most starships are packing larger non-portable hypertransceivers that can communicate several star systems away, perhaps beyind 25 LY's. Compare this to a YT-1300's Short Range sensors indicating comms are limited to "just out of dogfighting range".

Perhaps they are speaking of just "comms" when limiting to sensor range? A.i. the hypertransceivers are used for "long-range" messages but simple radio/comm technology is limited to sensor range. Even so, in RAW small hand-held comlinks are able to communicate to low orbit and backpack comlinks are able to communicate across a star system. So, a ship's basic non-transceiver radio/comm technology should be well beyond "dog-fighting" range.

In my opinion the sensor range = comm range of RAW must be removed by house rules.

The issue with the comm range for communication is the least of my concerns when it comes to how this seems to work.

I had not seen the passages cited from SoF prior to them being posted above (I don't own the book, and don't really plan on it). I don't have context, but, to me, I feel like "send long-range messages" is more like sending email, i.e. messaging that's non-interactive and not in real-time. Kind of like what Leia hid in R2, just a message, not a conversation.

The "comm range" seems to address more ad-hoc point-to-point (P2P) communication, akin to what would be done with ham radio or between a capital ship's CIC and fighters.

Your point, though, is taken: what's presented is a an inconsistent mess, and canon sources make it more confusing (e.g. is Vader talking to the Emperor via Holonet or hypertransciever as described above, or some other method?).

Vader's conversation with the Emperor in ESB is via the Holonet. And the comm range issue is mostly related to what the D6 system referred to as "subspace radio", as in radio wave signals used to communicate over short distances within the same star system.

My take on the whole issue is that unless my players are in structured time (as in space combat) I don't worry much about comm and sensor range. They both extend to the range of plot.

It makes some better sense to consider comms and sensor ranges to be identical if they utilize the same equipment, which they easily could. RADAR is just a powerful radio transmitter coupled with a sensitive directional receiver. Active and passive SONAR are a speaker and an array of microphones. Passive sensors and comm reception could be functionally identical if they use the same directional receiver antenna. Active sensors and comm transmission could be the same if they use the same transmitter. Your sensor band becomes the distance at which you can hear someone who makes as much noise as you do, louder things can be heard farther out with a given sensativity of antenna. Between always-on transponders, and electromagnetic engine noise, it can normally be assumed an operating vessel is always transmitting. Deadening this operational noise is the purpose of stealth modifications.

This leads to an interesting possible rules interpretation: unless a ship specifically turns off its comms, engines, shields, and active sensors, its sensor range becomes the distance at which other ships can see it, not just it seeing them. This means a Star Destroyer potentially becomes visible to the Falcon once inside the Star Destroyer's range, not the Falcon's. Admiral Akbar can talk to snub fighters because his flagship has a great transmitter and reciever, not because an X-wing does. The TIE squadrons know where the X-wings are because the Star Destroyer is telling them over comms, not because they are in range. Active sensors, like electronic countermeasures, are even more obvious and make you visible well beyond your range, like the book says.

Stealth, in space, becomes a game of blinding yourself to avoid being seen.

To pass undetected, keep your engines low and quiet and do not use active sensors or comms. Drift when possible, build up speed far outside a planet's orbit then coast in like a passing comet.

To lie in wait, a ship would need to stop or significantly reduce the strength of all transmissions (comms, active sensors, and engines) then wait for other ships to get close enough to reveal themselves. If those ships have better sensor ranges, a ship also needs asteroids or something as cover for its mass. This is why shutting the Millennium falcon down let them hide on the back of the Star Destroyer, its emission signature mostly vanished. This did not remove its gravitational presence, though, which is why using the garbage as a smokescreen was necessary.

A Star Destroyer can still ambush players, but they must keep comms, engines, and active sensors off until the player ship gets close. Even then, the players will detect the mass of the vessel once inside their own range. Snub fighters can ambush a Star Destroyer, they just need to shut down and use something to mask their mass until it gets close. They can even ambush each other, if snub fighters hide among asteroids and the Star Destroyer drifts in under no power. The snub fighters would not see the Star Destroyer until close range, and the Star Destroyer would only see rocks.

Anyway, it's not a RAW take on the rules set, but it is a way the RAW can make sense with only interpretation instead of additional house rulings. It also lends credence to the idea that the comm range enhancement mod might also improve sensors, because comms are sensors.

I would better recommend this stuff :

Link

15 hours ago, Rosco74 said:

I would better recommend this stuff :

Link

Thanks for the recommendation. I think this thread may have started my work on that document?

Nice to see you around Sturn, again well done on that .. so amazing "must have" :-)