Yep, that's the way I see it too. I think it's a case of do we extend the simple mechanics to cover one corner case, or do we leave it as plain and simple?

As far as I'm concerned, the deployment of the Pup is it's a new ship on the table, and as such shouldn't arrive with damage cards in tow.

If you have Damaged Cockpit the destroyed ship has a PS of 0. If you have Injured Pilot your EPT and Pilot Ability are ignored. I can see how the effect of these two crits (as well as the PS from VI, Swarm Tactics, or Decoy) might transfer to the Pup. At the time the ship was destroyed there was no pilot ability and/or its pilot skill was whatever the modified value was.

Not quit correct. The injured pilot card tells you "you can not use your pilot ability or abillitys on EPT upgrade cards". So the abbility is still there, you just can't use it as long as you have the damage card. So the pup still gets the ability.

Damaged cocpit is a bit more unclear though. It says to "treat you pilot skill as 0". I belive that means your PS effectivley is 0. So ironicaly it seems the damaged cocpit will transfere it's effect to the pup while injured pilot will not. Here the rules go compleatly against theam, but that is how I would read them.

That's not what Injured Pilot says though, it says to ignore your pilot ability and EPT. If the pilot ability is being ignored when the Pup is deployed there is no pilot ability for it to inherit. The crit itself doesn't transfer.

But the ship the crit is on (and therefore blocking it's ability use) is no longer there, and so the crit is no longer there. Just as if you'd discarded/flipped it with an ability/upgrade.

The ship is still there, it isn't removed from play until after the Pup is deployed.

Yep, that's the way I see it too. I think it's a case of do we extend the simple mechanics to cover one corner case, or do we leave it as plain and simple?

As far as I'm concerned, the deployment of the Pup is it's a new ship on the table, and as such shouldn't arrive with damage cards in tow.

It wouldn't arrive with any damage cards. There just isn't a pilot ability to inherit in the case of Injured Pilot.

I think we can settle this using the FAQ and IG-2000. In the FAQ it states

An Aggressor equipped with IG-2000 that receives the Injured Pilot Damage card can still use the pilot abilities of friendly ships equipped with IG-2000, but those friendly ships can no longer use its pilot ability.

So if friendly ships can't use the ability from the injured pilot ig-2000, which uses near identical wording for it's transfer of abilities I don't see how the Pup could still get the ability.

But the Aggressor with the Injured Pilot crit hasn't been destroyed. So that's not a convincing argument so far.

But the Aggressor with the Injured Pilot crit hasn't been destroyed. So that's not a convincing argument so far.

And a YV-666 deploying a pup is still on the table as well.

But removed as soon as the Pup is deployed. And under the rules, the damage cards are no longer in play.

Destroying Ships

When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship is equal to or greater than its hull value, the ship is immediately destroyed (faceup and facedown cards count toward this total). Immediately remove the destroyed ship from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards to a faceup discard pile next to the Damage deck, and return all of its tokens to their respective supplies.

It's a game, the logical thing to do in a game is to follow the rules... IMHO.

The rules are simple and easy to follow. The problem comes from the upgrade cards. Part of this is the wording. The other part may come from the developers themselves. Considering how long they work on each wave, they become familiar with the intent of the ability and when they write the card it sounds good to them. Just look at the FAQ for examples. I'm not knocking the game or the developers. It's human nature. They may need someone to read the cards to see if there any ambiguities. That person should not be a player. Each of us, as players, brings some sort of preconceived ideas to the game.

Take me for example. I've worked in engineering for close to 40 years. Looking at the Outrider title. It tells you when you equip a cannon you can't perform attacks with your primary weapon but you can attack outside of your firing arc. No problem so far. To me this means that your original pea shooter was replaced by something bigger. Then you draw the Munitions Failure crit. It tells you to discard the cannon upgrade card. To me this means the Outrider just became a weaponless blocker. But the title card states "While you have a cannon upgrade card equiped..." This is where my problem arises with this situation. I can't un-equip a card in the middle of a game but the card can be destroyed. So is the Outrider still equipped with a non-functioning cannon upgrade or is the upgrade considered to be gone? According to Alex it's gone and you primary weapon is back on line. It's the wording on the cards together with my preconceived ideas that causes the confusion.

The same thing applies to Dash and the stunned pilot crit. He still ignores obstacles but takes damage if he overlaps another ship.

There are other examples but you get the idea. Sometimes you can read the card but still scratch your wondering what were they thinking. That's why threads like this exist and why we have a 15 page FAQ.

I get what you are saying and I'm sorry if my comment seemed a bit harsh.

What I mean is that while the game is very thematic (and that is a good thing), ultimatley it is goverend by rules (and text on cards are part of thouse rules) and to understand how a card or situation works, you need to just look at the text of the card and/or rule book laying aside all thoughts on what "makes sens" in real life or in the theme of the game.

My mind is very stringent and goes in to this mode of thinking by default so to speak and so I can get a bit frustrated when others don't see the "obviousness" of how things should be enterpreted. It allso gets a bit frustrating to read the humongus FAQ when most of it just states what is "obvious" to me by just reading the rules.

But on the other hand, people can be frustrated with me when I don't get the "obviousness" of things in other areas of life.

We are all different and have different ways of thinking about things and we all need to constantly try our best to be tolerant of other ways of thinking. In general I think the people in this forum are very good at that and patiently and politely answeres even the most "obvious" questions. But we all have bad days...

Ok, that turned out to be quit a rant

TLDR, sorry if I came of a bit condecending.

I didn't take it as condescending, so no hard feelings or ruffled feathers to worry about. You description of your way of thinking is what I was trying to get across to Daonet. You did it much better than I did. Also, I know nothing about the EU so if Dash had a cannon strapped to the Outrider I wouldn't know. I understand why the title and cannon upgrade functions as they do; you really don't want a 56 point blocker.

Your comment about just reading the card and laying aside all thoughts of what makes sense makes sense. Pun intended. What happens when you read the statement on the card and feel that it is or can be construed as ambiguous? Awhile back I had a problem with the wording on the Backup Shield Generator from the transport. Specifically the last 5 words on the card: "up to your shield value". The card says that "At the end of each round you may spend 1 energy to recover 1 shield (up to your shield value). You can't recover something that isn't lost nor can you recover something you didn't have. From this I took the card to mean, that on a one for one basis you could spend one energy to recover one shield. Spend 3 energy and recover 3 shields. But the card doesn't work like that. If they had omitted those 5 little words I wouldn't have had a problem determining the intent of the card. This was another thing I was trying to get across to Dagonet. I really do need to apologize to him. I was getting a little snarky.

Anyhow, the BSG is one example where just reading the card without prejudice doesn't help.

Enough for tonight. No hard feelings on this end. Sometimes it's just frustrating to try and get an idea across to another person when the idea isn't fully formed in your own thoughts.

@Stoneface: The one thing to keep in mind when reading these "ambiguous" cards is that most are restricted to once per opportunity. So with the BSG you used for an example, you can use it once at the end of the round to get a shield back, but you can't go past your initial shield value. I've seen this a lot, and by applying "once per opportunity" some things become less ambiguous.

Hope that helps.

But removed as soon as the Pup is deployed. And under the rules, the damage cards are no longer in play.

Destroying Ships

When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship is equal to or greater than its hull value, the ship is immediately destroyed (faceup and facedown cards count toward this total). Immediately remove the destroyed ship from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards to a faceup discard pile next to the Damage deck, and return all of its tokens to their respective supplies.

But the Pup is deployed before the YV-666 leaves play. The damage cards are not discarded until after the ship is removed from play. At the time that the Pup is deployed the YV-666 has no pilot ability.

The rules don't tell us that upgrades and face up damage cards stop having an effect when damage cards exceed the hull value. The rules regarding simultaneous attacks would lead me to believe that those cards stay active until you get to the point that you have removed the ship from the board and dispose of cards as instructed to under the Destroying Ships section that you quoted.

FFG will need to FAQ this unless there's something in the deployment steps for the Pup that clears things up.

I doubt there'll be anything in the deployment rules that will clear this one up. It's going to be a FAQ job.

If you have Damaged Cockpit the destroyed ship has a PS of 0. If you have Injured Pilot your EPT and Pilot Ability are ignored. I can see how the effect of these two crits (as well as the PS from VI, Swarm Tactics, or Decoy) might transfer to the Pup. At the time the ship was destroyed there was no pilot ability and/or its pilot skill was whatever the modified value was.

Not quit correct. The injured pilot card tells you "you can not use your pilot ability or abillitys on EPT upgrade cards". So the abbility is still there, you just can't use it as long as you have the damage card. So the pup still gets the ability.

Damaged cocpit is a bit more unclear though. It says to "treat you pilot skill as 0". I belive that means your PS effectivley is 0. So ironicaly it seems the damaged cocpit will transfere it's effect to the pup while injured pilot will not. Here the rules go compleatly against theam, but that is how I would read them.

That's not what Injured Pilot says though, it says to ignore your pilot ability and EPT. If the pilot ability is being ignored when the Pup is deployed there is no pilot ability for it to inherit. The crit itself doesn't transfer.

I was going of a random image of that card that google gave me. Mabye that image is not correct. But on that image it said "You cannot use ..." and not "Ignore your ...". I'll have a look at the actual card once I get home.

Injured Pilot (Pilot Trait): "All players must ignore your pilot ability and all of your EPT Upgrade cards."

Not sure if this is going to change anything. I'm going to wait for the FAQ and see if it's in there.

I do not understand what needs to be FAQ'ed though.

When the Hound's Tooth is destroyed you deploy a new ship. Said ship has the PS and Ability of the ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth title.

Critical damage is applied to the YV-666, which is destroyed after the Z-95 has been deployed.

Why would critical damage be transferred? That makes no sense. Why would you start the ship at 1 or, if you're unlucky, 2 damage cards (and in the latter case, have it immediately destroyed).

The only reason it would make sense is if you look at it from a story perspective, but that doesn't apply.

Same as how EPT's don't transfer over as the Nashtah Pup doesn't have EPT slots.

I do not understand what needs to be FAQ'ed though.

When the Hound's Tooth is destroyed you deploy a new ship. Said ship has the PS and Ability of the ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth title.

Critical damage is applied to the YV-666, which is destroyed after the Z-95 has been deployed.

Why would critical damage be transferred? That makes no sense. Why would you start the ship at 1 or, if you're unlucky, 2 damage cards (and in the latter case, have it immediately destroyed).

The only reason it would make sense is if you look at it from a story perspective, but that doesn't apply.

Same as how EPT's don't transfer over as the Nashtah Pup doesn't have EPT slots.

IG-2000 and Nashtah Pup have similar templateing, therefore it is reasonable to assume rulings for one apply to the other in this context.

@Stoneface: The one thing to keep in mind when reading these "ambiguous" cards is that most are restricted to once per opportunity. So with the BSG you used for an example, you can use it once at the end of the round to get a shield back, but you can't go past your initial shield value. I've seen this a lot, and by applying "once per opportunity" some things become less ambiguous.

Hope that helps.

I think it will but in the case of the BSG it still seems (to me at least) you can recover more than one shield. Especially when compared against the wording in ths Recover action.

Maybe my mind has been warped by watching too many Marvin the Martian cartoons as a child.

I do not understand what needs to be FAQ'ed though.

When the Hound's Tooth is destroyed you deploy a new ship. Said ship has the PS and Ability of the ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth title.

Critical damage is applied to the YV-666, which is destroyed after the Z-95 has been deployed.

Why would critical damage be transferred? That makes no sense. Why would you start the ship at 1 or, if you're unlucky, 2 damage cards (and in the latter case, have it immediately destroyed).

The only reason it would make sense is if you look at it from a story perspective, but that doesn't apply.

Same as how EPT's don't transfer over as the Nashtah Pup doesn't have EPT slots.

VI or Damaged Cockpit would work the same. The Pup wouldn't get either of those cards but it would get the modified pilot skill value since that is the pilot skill of the ship that was destroyed.

Once the Hound's Tooth is destroyed all damage cards assigned to it are discarded onto the face up discard pile.

The Nashtah Pup has the pilot ability of the friendly destroyed ship with the Hound's Tooth title.

So while the Nashtah Pup is in play, whenever it checks against the destroyed ship, there are no damage cards telling it to ignore abilities.

Not only that, but the Pup isn't a player, it has a static effect that copies the text off of another card (in this case, one out of play).

There's no card on the Pup telling people to ignore its ability. Even if you keep Injured Pilot assigned to the destroyed Hound's Tooth it would have no effect.

So, I don't agree about the Damaged Cockpit either . VI possibly as it stays with the ship card as it moves from in play to the score pile.

VI is one I would want to have FAQ'ed, possibly.

Once the Hound's Tooth is destroyed all damage cards assigned to it are discarded onto the face up discard pile.

The Nashtah Pup has the pilot ability of the friendly destroyed ship with the Hound's Tooth title.

So while the Nashtah Pup is in play, whenever it checks against the destroyed ship, there are no damage cards telling it to ignore abilities.

Not only that, but the Pup isn't a player, it has a static effect that copies the text off of another card (in this case, one out of play).

There's no card on the Pup telling people to ignore its ability. Even if you keep Injured Pilot assigned to the destroyed Hound's Tooth it would have no effect.

That's a tracking problem not a rules problem though. There's nothing to remind you that Corran can't shoot this round if he double tapped the last but people still manage to pull that off.

As for the Pup not being a player; the Pup isn't interpreting rules and cards and applying them to the game state, its owner is.

Once the Hound's Tooth is destroyed all damage cards assigned to it are discarded onto the face up discard pile.

The Nashtah Pup has the pilot ability of the friendly destroyed ship with the Hound's Tooth title.

So while the Nashtah Pup is in play, whenever it checks against the destroyed ship, there are no damage cards telling it to ignore abilities.

That is a good point and I think I agrea fully. I had failed to take my own advice and thorughly read what the card (Natash pup) actualy said. I was focused on the damage cards wording, but as you pointed out, they are removed from the destroyed ship and the Pup referes to the destroyed ship, not the ship as it was at the time of its destruction.