So, I finally read through Rogue Trader, and as a GM I was a little disappointed.

The reason was a lack of detail- both in the ships and the Korunos Expanse. Reading through it, nothing particularly new and exciting grabbed me.

The Ships were a fairly light and limited selection of BFG's classic (only 8 different types of ships! ) and while there is a lot of choice for customisation some bizarre design decisions were made. The starship rules were clearly cribbed from BFG concepts, but the fact that the only weapons you can have are Lances or Batteries is limitiing. But giving every ship a Turret rating whih defends against incoming ordinance, but saying rules for torpedoes or bombers will be in a future supplement and you cant have them on your ship is a very odd omission. Why bother with anti-ordinance if you cant have ordinance? Especially since submarine tactics like Silent running are discussed and given crunch, yet they wont give you the weapons of a sub to do the job?

The Korunos Expanse was also a little ho-hum. In part because there doesnt appear to be any central mystery or theme holding it together. The Calixis Sector had the Tyrant star to define it, give it flavour and otherwise distinguish it from any other Imperial sector. But the Korunos Expanse doesnt have equivalent theme or mcguffin you could point at and say "This distinguishes it from the Ghoul Stars or the Eastern Fringe". Heck, they even import in the Kroot (but not the Tau before anyone asks) from the other side of the galaxy! The worlds also lack detail and explanation for their mysteries for the GM. Standard stuff of dead planets, Ork Waaarghs growing etc, and I missed the vital element differentiating it from everywhere else.

Other rules- I slept through Talents, Skills, Combat, Imperium background, and GM dramatic rules since much of it looks identical to Dark Heresy. I knew it was compatible going in, and thats a strength, but effectively it does make the book about 50% reused material - almost Palladium level. Equipment didnt have a lot of new stuff- 80% we've already seen in the IH.

Most interesting new stuff are probably the Endeavors, Starship voyages and Navigators and the bumf on different types of Rogue Trader was better done than the equivalent Inquistion section in DH. The Introductory adventure is another railroad chase, again outshone by their free PDF adventure of Dark Frontier

I strongly suspect that we'll be seeing a Starships book and a Planets of the Expanse book from FFG in 2010. Because frankly they need it.

SJE

"Disappointing"? Really?

I am very pleased with the RT book. The basics are included because its a stand alone book. In fact, I was pleased that they included them because they had the errata from DH. I wasn't bummed about the lack of detail on the Expanse because RT has a different feelfrom DH. Whereas DH is intrigue, mystery, and subterfuge, RT is adventure, exploration, and treasure. I don't want them to detail too much of the Expanse because then I'll feel like I can't do whatever I want (see the old World of Darkness. The main story was so detailed it was hard to write a campaign around it). I'll be satisfied with having a handful of planets detailed for pre-written campaigns and keep the rest to teasers, tidbits, and generalizations.

As for the ships, sure there isn't a lot of detail there, but they just needed to include the rules so that we could use the ships in our campaigns. I'm glad they're adapted BfG rules because they're easy to understand and very easy to pick up if you already play BfG. I'm pretty sure they say it explicitly in the book that they couldn't include everything about ships due to page constraints, so more detail will come later. If you really need nova cannons and torpedos, make up some rules to get you by.

I will agree that the profit factor and endeavor/misfortune system is really exciting and I also like the new take on psychic powers.

I'm really excited to start regularly running some RT with my group.

/Thanks FFG for a great book!

Cervantes3773 said:

Yes, really.

Not including basics like Torpedo's and limiting it tactically to just 2 types of weapon means that when they do come out with the Big Book of Starships then you'll need to be hopping back and forth between 2 open books when your fighter wings clash and try to open up a hole in his Turrets for your torpedoes which is going to be really annoying.

Other poorly thought out rules include void shields regenerating instantly- so if you and your ally combine fire and gang up on the same ship, they keep their void shields up against both of you. It'd be dramatically more interesting if one or other of you could knock then down (perhaps exposing the lead ship) whilst the other goes in for a kill shot.

I can see some possible campaign hooks hidden away - while it doesnt particularly support doing something like B5:Crusade (in which your brave group has the only Nova Cannon and Battlecruiser in the entire Expanse as you search for the Halo-makers home planet to stop a dreadful xenos plague from ravaging the Calixis sector) you coud have some fun and games with having the only ship with a Teleportium in the Expanse - combining that with Murder Servitors (described ) or your own company of Space Marines (not described) and your cunning plans to get close enough to the enemy or drop their void shields long enough to do you Teleport attacks would be cool.

But its still very much an incomplete work.

SJE said:

What RPG rulebook isn't? Even those claiming to be 'all you need to play' leave room for further expansion, because as important as the rulebook is, the publishers generally can't afford to not put out supplements to expand the line and fill in the gaps left in the rulebook. Between setting in motion an entire product line, and limited space in the rulebook (no matter how big it is), there will always be omissions.

I'd argue that missing the basics of starship combat is a pretty glaring omission, let alone denying Voidmasters from living out their Luke fantasies of flying their snub fighter against a Necron Dyson sphere and dropping their Vortex Torpedo down its exhaust hatch.

Games which struck me as being quite complete on a mechanical level (there is alway extra room for additional toys or more fluff, but mechanically complete)- Shadowrun 4th, Star Wars d6, Call of Cthulhu, Burning Empires, Savage Worlds & Unknown Armies. And those are just the ones I can see from my seat right now.

SJE

Honestly BFG only has 3 main weapon classes. Lances, batteries, and ordinance. Sure there are odd ball weapons like nova cannons, but most races have the 3 basic weapon types with various names and slight differences. The book is huge and I'm sure they had to cut the ordinance rules for space. Personally I'm already working on torp, and bomber/fighter rules from BFG. (It's not hard.) Let's face it space combat is not all RT is about, and a lot of players, and GM are going to be hard pressed to master the person to person combat rules much less the space combat rules.

As far as the Expanse I'm not to disappointed at the lack of detail. Rogue Traders go where no man has gone before. Let's face is some players are going to read the back of the book sooner or later. I'd rather not have to worry that players know that planet X is daemon ridden or the like. Creating planet and what not to explore is easy. Just watch a season of Star Trek, Farscape, Red Dwarf, Lexx, or the like.

Ahh. Its true. Alas, the starship section is a 'mere' fourty pages of dedicated rules. (more than the Character Creation Chapter, or the Koronous Expanse and the rogue trader chapters combined. Hell, its just about as long as the chapter titled 'playing the game')

By the way hasn't Ross said repeatedly, that the starship section was originally more detailed and had to be cut and pasted into a later suppliment? The book is already 400 pages long. There is more than enough here to get by. My head is already spinning with story ideas. And if I really, desperately, want to use torpedoes, I'll bet I can come up with some rules for them with barely a modicum of effort. Fyling small spacecraft? Hmmm. Not a very difficult situation to whip up, as GM.

There's really no pleasing some people...

Still reading my way thru it, but remember it is designed as as both a stand-alone game AND DH compatible... so yeah there's a little repetition, but s'all good.

Mazinkaiser said:

Mazinkaiser said:

Exactly.

That's the main problem with creating a supplement that's also supposed to function as a stand-alone game, there will be much repetition of old material. But from what I've seen so far I think Rogue Trader contains enough new content to be interesting. I also had my first experience with starship combat yesterday and all the players and the GM seemed to have a lot of fun, and we were just running the Demo adventure (with pre generated characters).

Although I heard that the original Demo Adventure doesn't contain starship combat, my GM really wanted to incorporate one so we could all learn the mechanics of how it all works, and we had a blast.

Besides, if we know that FFG had to cut large sections of chapters and keep them in reserve for future supplements, we could take comfort in the fact that much of the work surrounding these future installments have already been completed. Meaning that hopefully we won't have to wait that long for them.

Overall I like it, but there is one flaw for me.

The careers bite. None of them really intrigue me. From their names to their special abilities and so forth. In fact, IMHO, Rogue Trader shouldnt be a class,it should be a trait. Why couldnt a Void Master become a rogue trader? or a arch-militant? or for that matter a Dark Heresy Scum?

It would make sense as an alternate career rank.

Also, IMNSHO, Navigator is more a origin then a career.

But despite a little disappointment in the game, there are other things I really like. The extra cybernetics, the Kroot (thought more Xenos would have been nice). Im interested in the Yuu'vuth or whatever they are called (wondering if perhaps they have a Slaught connection?) as well as to see where future supplements take us.

I wasnt completely satisfied with Dark Heresy until my grubby hands got a copy of The Inquisitor's Handbook, so here is looking forward to The Explorer's Handbook! If that book comes out and does much the same as TIH (but with less gear and more environment) then I will be very, very happy.

But since this book is a Dark Heresy supplement for me, I am overall pleased.

Yeah, the careers are not as fluffy or interesting in particular choices like the career trees DH had. I haven't scrutinized the RT careers enough to see if there's wiggle room, but as of now the career path is totally linear. Not a killer, but some choice would've been cool too.

I'm not disappointed so far.

I know there's repetition, but it is supposed to be a stand-alone game. On the plus side, my group is usually 5-7 players and we only have 3 DH rulebooks, so essentially this gives us an extra 2 rulebooks (me and the other GM bought RT).

I've never met the perfect RPG, so I expect to develop House Rules. So far I'm very happy with the presentation of the basic Concepts, especially Profit Factor, so I'm more than happy to flesh out the missing bits like Torpedos and Assault Craft.

I haven't completely read the new character classes, but on overview they seem more like Archeotypes rather than "Classes". That's fine with me as they should allow more room for individual character development than more restrictive and defining "Classes". Nothing wrong with classes, but just for example I didn't like "Chaliced Commissariat". I would have been happier with plain, generic "Commissar". On the other hand, I quite liked the several Mechanicus sub-classes.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Actually, the Skills and Talents chapters were some of those that most impressed me. Not only did the Alternate Skill Uses from Inquisitor's Handbook make it in, but there were many new or updated talents. Read how Into the Jaws of Hell affects Starships, or quake with fear at the thought of an Explorator with Enhanced Bionic Frame. I think think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Also, I think there was a conscious effort not to reproduce any of the DH careers, which are all technically part of the RT setting. There are still adepts, sanctioned psykers, and asassins running around, so I think there was some effort not to create overlap and to keep the DH classes intact without devaluing them completely. Sure, the Adept is more narrow than the Seneschal, but the Adept is still the specialized master of all knowleges (and can even become a psyker through sheer genius and scholarship), the Sanctionite is still a master of causing unplanned-for chaos incursions, and the Asassin is still the stabbiest/shootiest guy around (as opposed to just stabbiest, or just shootiest). Obviously, the archmilitant(Super-guardsman) sees a bit of overlap, as does the missionary and the explorator, and the rogue trader is a sort of Uber-Scum (as is only appropriate). Some overlap was inevitable, but I'm glad they kept some distinctions intact. One choice would have been to reproduce the original careers in the new book (adjusted up to a higher level of play), but I kind of like the New Careers. Afterall, I can always create a DH character for RT if I want. Its an easy port.

Still, if I had to say anything bugged me, I'd say that the original DH layout of the Careers section was much more satisying, funny, and enlightening to read -plus I loved the fancy titles of the various ranks and use them all the time in play to indicate the power level of various Adepti. Also, the little quotes about the various career ranks really added to the concept in my mind.

They sort of lost some of the magic which the new, streamlined career section.

Oh well. Page count is a harsh mistress.

Yeah, DH was more fun to read and I did like the titles....

Nullius said:

Yeah, it was a nice touch. But in my opinion a nice touch for reading purposes. When you're actually trying to use the rulebook in DH for gaming, a lot of these unnecessary tidbits of text tend to increase the page count, forcing you to flip through a lot of pages.

The way I see it, we might have lost some of these personal touches, but at the same time gained some more functionalism.

But I don't mind. The Origin path alone will provide all the fluff an individual PC could need anyway...

Oh I know. And I love the book. But ultimately, I spend more time reading sourcebooks than I do using them. (A hazard of a busy schedule and few friends with the same interests) My only play-group is a PBP game online. I often read these books again and again, and I love little details. The book is so dense, in terms of mechanics, that there was obviously a need to trim the fluff, so I understand the need for these omissions well.

Overall I like it, but there is one flaw for me.

The careers bite. None of them really intrigue me. From their names to their special abilities and so forth. In fact, IMHO, Rogue Trader shouldnt be a class,it should be a trait. Why couldnt a Void Master become a rogue trader? or a arch-militant? or for that matter a Dark Heresy Scum?

It would make sense as an alternate career rank.

Also, IMNSHO, Navigator is more a origin then a career.

I disagree.

If the Navigator is an origin, then so are the sanctioned psyker and the techpriest of DH. They've certainly got some origin-y elements - after all, they've got massive distinctions from other careers right at the beginning (mechanicus implants/psyker ability). However, they also have a pre-destinated career in front of them. You won't find exactly many navigators that are not, well, navigating ships for a living. Or preparing to navigate ships. Or learn to navigate ships. Or stuff.

As for the rogue trader, I think there's a common set of required talents they'd generally need that would go beyond what's reasonable implementable as a single alternate career rank.

i agree, to be successful a rogue trader needs to have certain skills and it would be too much to have them as a caree rank. Besides if you really wanted to have a void-Master rogue trader, or ach-millitant rogue trader theres nothing to stop you. Just have a group without anyone playing a rogue trader class and nominated one other person to be the groupes rogue trader. I've had games were there was someone playing a rogue trader class who wasn't the groups rogue trader. Confusing i'll admite but it made for good charecter development

Cifer said:

There are some flaws in your reasoning here. First of all, both Techpriests and Psykers all start out as "normal" people at first, before being inducted into their respective adepta (Psykers must be "discovered" and then taken to terra etc. etc. Techpriests to be are handpicked by Adeptus Mechanicus officials from a reasonably normal population befoe being blessed with their augmetic implants and recieve their training etc.)

Navigators on the other hand, all belong to a Navigator family from the get go. They aren't "discovered" like psykers or handpicked from a general population like techpriests, they are bred from a family of Navigator stock.

So to a certain extent, I would say that playing a navigator pretty much forces the character to be from a Noble Born upbringing (it would be kind of hard to justify exactly how a death worlder simply "developed" the navigator gene, went out to voyage among the stars, only to realize that he or she had a third eye and could navigate ships through the warp).

Navigators do seem to throw a few wrenches in the machinery for character creation. At least from a fluffwise and chronological perspective...

As I remember (and be sure, I'll be looking it up. It's on my bookshelf...somewhere) there are two types of Rogue Trader Charter. Well, three, actually.

The first type is inherited. If the last family member dies without an heir, the Charter becomes null and void. The pro side is, nobody can steal it from you and your greedy, stupid older brother can't sell it to fund his Obscura habit. These are considered the most desirable types to have, as you have to really impress someone (like a High Lord of Terra) to grant you and your descendants a Charter in perpetuity.

The second type is more like a perpetual license. Meaning, it's fully transferrable. You can win it, sell it, buy it, trade it etc. The new owner presents it to the Administratum who registers him...voila, he/she's now a Rogue Trader. Naturally, this would be an RT's most valuable possession until he becomes so down on his luck he no longer possesses a ship.

The third is granted. It could be one of either the two types or basically only applies to the recipient for his lifetime and is non-transferable.

If memory serves me right, a Planetary Governor has the ability to grant Charters. Maybe not every type, but that seems pretty powerful to me.

Again, I believe it's in a very old GW rulebook or perhaps an old White Dwarf. i'll look it up.

As far as the Rogue Trader class, it makes sense to me if you look at it as the character is part of a dynasty, which would normally be the case. He or she is going to be raised and trained with the most important skills necessary to succeed, which means business, diplomacy and leadership. Sure, an Arch-Militant could win a Charter in a card game, but that doesn't mean he's got the chops to make a large-scale business deal. He might have to satisfy himself with becoming a successful pirate rather than the primogen of vast holdings spanning 3 sectors.

SJE said:

I kinda agree with you I'm afraid, having had just an hour or so read of it so far (so my opinion may change) ... there just is not enough detail on the Koronus Expanse for a start. I thought the whole idea of macro-detailing a relatively small part of the setting (as with the Calixis Sector) was so we could have detail on that region at least, with the rest of the HUGE 40K setting out there for people who want to do their own thing.

The Expanse stuff is nice as far as it goes, but it's very scant and skeletal. I don't accept the argument either that this is to allow GM's to create their own detail for the region. I think it's safe to assume Port Wander for example is going to get a canon description at some point, which may well contradict anything I make up for it in the mean time. Port Wander struck me as very under-detailed, especially considering we're all going to be passing through at some point. I think it warranted a good few pages of fluff descriptions, maps, and adventure hooks, at the least.

The rest of the Expanse is similarly under detailed too. Good in what little is there. But much more detail is badly needed to make the setting come to life.

If you ask me the Necrons (which I shall be using in my campaign) make perfect uber-baddies for the Halo Stars (which according to the Necron Codex is where they fled to when defeated in their early wars with the Old Ones) and it seems incomprehensible to me the Kroot get page space when the Necrons do not.

I can live with the rather few ship hulls we're given, as it's easy to extrapolate new ones using BG supplements etc. But yes, there aren't many provided here.

I think Profit Points & Endevours are basically sound, which is great. The only thing that leaps out at me as 'wrong' is (and this doesn't really matter much as it's very easy to change) is the comparative levels of profit to wealth table. House Krin we are told has Profit of 130 (iirc) ... this seems WAYYYY too low for arguably one of the richest groups in the Sector. If they take a few hits to their PF they are getting down to the level where they may be failing aquisition rolls. That has to be wrong. The likes of House Krin are padded by millenia of wealth, it would take generations of failures before they should be having trouble with aquisition rolls. I'd put House Krin at, at the very least, at 500+ Profit Points.

Sounds like I'm moaning I know. I'm not really, I only really wanted the book for the Profit Rules, the Starship Creation & Combat Rules, maybe some new equipment and weapons, some fluff on Rogue Traders generally, and a nice detailed write up on the Expanse. I don't use the official rules for my 40K rpg play, so that side of things was never gonna be much use to me. I like Profit Points, Endevours etc, I like the starship stuff, the fluff's okay, 's just that bare bonesy Expanse write up that I'm really whingeing about.

Adam France said:

In defense of the PF of House Krin in the book you have to realise that in 40K, planet bound trading houses (like House Krin) are not the creme de la creme of the wealthy. The Rogue Traders are usually at the top when it comes to wealth, resources and prestige, not individual trading houses. And yes, House Krin might be a sector house, meaning that it has outposts and business on more worlds than one. But the thing about these houses is that they don't own, nor have the rights to own warp capable starships like Rogue Traders do. House Krin might be wealthy and influential, but in comparison to some of the really powerful Rogue Trader dynasties, House Krin are small, since they are still dependant on paying shipsmasters in order to transport goods, personel an the like, due to lacking their own starfleet.

Still a PF of 130 is QUITE high, even for a sector house. There's a chance that they could fail to get certain acquisitions (these would have to have severe penalties to them, meaning that the goods, services or personel in question are unique in nature), and even then, that chance is still very slim.

To summarize, don't underestimate a PF of 130. But also keep in mind that even sector houses like house Krin have quite petty wealth in comparison to the real aristocracy of the Imperium of Man (meaning the Rogue Traders of course). Rogue Traders have the power and influence to declare themselves planetary governors over the worlds they discover. Not even the most influencial and powerful people of House Krin could hope to do the same.

Also, PF isn't just a matter of monetary wealth, but also a measure of intel, favours and debts a person or organisation holds. Some favors are simply beyond House Krin's reach. There are things that mere thrones cannot buy...

Rogue Trader is actually the first book that I've purchased from Fantasy Flight - and I have to say that I am very impressed with it. I can understand those who complain that there isn't very much "new" stuff in the book, but (as has been said) it is supposed to be a stand-alone game. In fact, I doubt if I would have purchased it if it was simply an expansion for Dark Heresy - now, however, I will be picking up Creatures Anathema at very least.

To someone unfamiliar with Dark Heresy, the book is packed to the gunnels with new and interesting things and, while I agree that more ships and weapons would be great to have, I feel they did an incredible job of getting the most important things for the game into the book.

While I honestly hope to see a space-faring vessel book as the next release for Rogue Trader, my hat is still off to FFG and the stellar work they did on this book that introduced me to the system and FFG's products.

As far as the lack of background on the Koronus expanse goes - it's supposed to be a game of exploration! If they wrote everything out and gave you all the information about the place, where would the mystery of discovering a new and inhabited world be? It is my opinion that a good GM will make the game and setting his own and allow his players to feel like the explorers they're roleplaying.