If only Laetin had an EPT or Scyks could get autothrusters, or illicits. Any of those things would have made one or more playable. They can be one shot through an asteroid at range 3 by a tie fighter or Z... And end up costing twice as much just to make that not happen to them.

So can Stealth Soontir Fel, but that doesn't stop anyone from taking him.

I really don't get your beef. EPT would be great to turtle up when you need to (PTL), but it's not like it's a bad deal to not have one. Autothrusters are nice, but not everything can take it. It's not like you should only take ships that can take Autothrusters.

Laetin w/ Stealth Device means he gets 4 green dice. Always go with either a Focus or Evade token. Depending on what's shooting at you, you have a good chance to evade that first hit, especially if it's a TLT. I mean 3 red dice with almost no way of modifying it vs. 4 green dice with either a Focus or Evade? You have to be seriously unlucky to have that fail. Will it happen? Sure, but the odds are pretty bad.

Although AGI2 and no Evade (if it's like the present X-wing) means you're capping out on 2 blocked damage per attack for an X-wing defensive profile. It can just be overpowered. Not the same as Soontir/Corran blocking 3 or 4 damage a turn.

You can fit a 35 point Soontir in a 100 point list with 3 AC Tempests.

Surely that has a good chance at dealing with a Quad TLT list.

I actually found Carnor to be a ROYAL pain in the bum versus tlts

He gets in there and suddenly you're only rolling single hits

You can fit a 35 point Soontir in a 100 point list with 3 AC Tempests.

Surely that has a good chance at dealing with a Quad TLT list.

Although AGI2 and no Evade (if it's like the present X-wing) means you're capping out on 2 blocked damage per attack for an X-wing defensive profile. It can just be overpowered. Not the same as Soontir/Corran blocking 3 or 4 damage a turn.

Can we keep discussion of hypothetical redacted ships to other threads? I'd like to keep this one around as a potential resource and a hedge against future TLT complaints.

Can we keep discussion of hypothetical redacted ships to other threads? I'd like to keep this one around as a potential resource and a hedge against future TLT complaints.

At least for a week and a half.

Can we keep discussion of hypothetical redacted ships to other threads? I'd like to keep this one around as a potential resource and a hedge against future TLT complaints.

you'll need to update it eventually, hypothetically

If only Laetin had an EPT or Scyks could get autothrusters, or illicits. Any of those things would have made one or more playable. They can be one shot through an asteroid at range 3 by a tie fighter or Z... And end up costing twice as much just to make that not happen to them.

So can Stealth Soontir Fel, but that doesn't stop anyone from taking him.

I really don't get your beef. EPT would be great to turtle up when you need to (PTL), but it's not like it's a bad deal to not have one. Autothrusters are nice, but not everything can take it. It's not like you should only take ships that can take Autothrusters.

Laetin w/ Stealth Device means he gets 4 green dice. Always go with either a Focus or Evade token. Depending on what's shooting at you, you have a good chance to evade that first hit, especially if it's a TLT. I mean 3 red dice with almost no way of modifying it vs. 4 green dice with either a Focus or Evade? You have to be seriously unlucky to have that fail. Will it happen? Sure, but the odds are pretty bad.

Unless soontir is actionless or somehow without focus than no he can't. Auto-thrusters means even a blank is an evade. Even if the 2 gun ship gets crit+crit and pulls direct hit autothrusters Soontir rolling all 5-6 blanks still survives.

My beef is that you are either running a ship that was made for upgrades naked and therefore should have taken a Z or you doubled the point cost of the cheap ship that was meant to be upgraded and should have brought 2 Zs, or soon a Special K. I have put at least one Scyk in almost every scum list I've flown since release and have never felt like I was getting value. It feels like the advanced all over again: expensive for stats, low upgrade potential, lackluster pilots (or, in the case of the advanced, 1 pilot with the best ability on the game who still can't get table time without the title), but they already did a title for this one so where does the fix come?

I'll keep putting them in my lists as they are nice looking and others have made them work but my beef is this is another DOA ship with low upgrade potential. I have faith in FFG to bring it around but it needed help at release.

And I'm tired of having to make a sub-20pt ship "fat as it can be" to pull any weight in my list and have it one shot by a ship costing half or less its points. An EPT, better ability for cost, illicit slot, or boost for autothrusters would have made it pretty good...instead it's crap.

And, to be on topic, TLTs double and triple attacks new world order would love to see this 3hp point sink on the other side of the table. Go ahead and point up to get it to 4hp, spend more points to protect a bad investment.

You can fit a 35 point Soontir in a 100 point list with 3 AC Tempests.

Surely that has a good chance at dealing with a Quad TLT list.

I think it's got a chance, although Soonts only has to get unlucky 3 times and the Tempests don't give you the PS advantage over Gold Y-Wings. He's pretty well set-up for the well-timed dash from outside R3 into the doughnut hole, though and all the time your opponent's concentrating on him the Old Reliable AC Tempests are plugging quietly away. It's a list I really like in general, TBH.

With 2 focus tokens, an evade, Autothrusters, and Stealth Device I can see him lasting a while. What's the mathwing on this?

I'll keep putting them in my lists as they are nice looking and others have made them work...

The bit about others making them work, that is.

Don't expect a range agility bonus anytime soon.

I'll keep putting them in my lists as they are nice looking and others have made them work...

I find that hard to believe.

The bit about others making them work, that is.

Yeah. I keep trying to make them work, and then they crash and burn at the table. The closest I've gotten is splashing one with an ion cannon into a list full of other threats.

I've not kept real close track of this discussion. But did anyone run the numbers for a Y-Wing with and without BTL and TLT?

I got my wave 7 ships last night and have a tournament this weekend. Thinking of taking the list I ran at Regionals (2x B-Wing, 2x Y-Wing which went 4-2 ) but updating the Gold's with TLT's instead of Ion's. Debating if I want to keep the BTL title or not.

I've not kept real close track of this discussion. But did anyone run the numbers for a Y-Wing with and without BTL and TLT?

I got my wave 7 ships last night and have a tournament this weekend. Thinking of taking the list I ran at Regionals (2x B-Wing, 2x Y-Wing which went 4-2 ) but updating the Gold's with TLT's instead of Ion's. Debating if I want to keep the BTL title or not.

Personally, I wouldn't take the BTL-A4 title with a Twin Laser Turret. It's awkward at Range 3, where your 2-dice primary is offset by the extra die, and it's awkward at Range 1, where your TLT can't fire at all. At Range 2 you're a fearsome jouster, but the Y-wing dial makes it tough to keep opponents there.

Instead, I'd do something like this:

But obviously your mileage may vary.

You can fit a 35 point Soontir in a 100 point list with 3 AC Tempests.

Surely that has a good chance at dealing with a Quad TLT list.

I think it's got a chance, although Soonts only has to get unlucky 3 times and the Tempests don't give you the PS advantage over Gold Y-Wings. He's pretty well set-up for the well-timed dash from outside R3 into the doughnut hole, though and all the time your opponent's concentrating on him the Old Reliable AC Tempests are plugging quietly away. It's a list I really like in general, TBH.

With 2 focus tokens, an evade, Autothrusters, and Stealth Device I can see him lasting a while. What's the mathwing on this?

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

You can fit a 35 point Soontir in a 100 point list with 3 AC Tempests.

Surely that has a good chance at dealing with a Quad TLT list.

I think it's got a chance, although Soonts only has to get unlucky 3 times and the Tempests don't give you the PS advantage over Gold Y-Wings. He's pretty well set-up for the well-timed dash from outside R3 into the doughnut hole, though and all the time your opponent's concentrating on him the Old Reliable AC Tempests are plugging quietly away. It's a list I really like in general, TBH.

With 2 focus tokens, an evade, Autothrusters, and Stealth Device I can see him lasting a while. What's the mathwing on this?

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

I gave up when I realized I'd need to account for the fact that the defender only spends a token against the first attack if doing so would turn a hit to a miss.

If only Laetin had an EPT or Scyks could get autothrusters, or illicits. Any of those things would have made one or more playable. They can be one shot through an asteroid at range 3 by a tie fighter or Z... And end up costing twice as much just to make that not happen to them.

So can Stealth Soontir Fel, but that doesn't stop anyone from taking him.

I really don't get your beef. EPT would be great to turtle up when you need to (PTL), but it's not like it's a bad deal to not have one. Autothrusters are nice, but not everything can take it. It's not like you should only take ships that can take Autothrusters.

Laetin w/ Stealth Device means he gets 4 green dice. Always go with either a Focus or Evade token. Depending on what's shooting at you, you have a good chance to evade that first hit, especially if it's a TLT. I mean 3 red dice with almost no way of modifying it vs. 4 green dice with either a Focus or Evade? You have to be seriously unlucky to have that fail. Will it happen? Sure, but the odds are pretty bad.

Unless soontir is actionless or somehow without focus than no he can't. Auto-thrusters means even a blank is an evade. Even if the 2 gun ship gets crit+crit and pulls direct hit autothrusters Soontir rolling all 5-6 blanks still survives.

My beef is that you are either running a ship that was made for upgrades naked and therefore should have taken a Z or you doubled the point cost of the cheap ship that was meant to be upgraded and should have brought 2 Zs, or soon a Special K. I have put at least one Scyk in almost every scum list I've flown since release and have never felt like I was getting value. It feels like the advanced all over again: expensive for stats, low upgrade potential, lackluster pilots (or, in the case of the advanced, 1 pilot with the best ability on the game who still can't get table time without the title), but they already did a title for this one so where does the fix come?

I'll keep putting them in my lists as they are nice looking and others have made them work but my beef is this is another DOA ship with low upgrade potential. I have faith in FFG to bring it around but it needed help at release.

And I'm tired of having to make a sub-20pt ship "fat as it can be" to pull any weight in my list and have it one shot by a ship costing half or less its points. An EPT, better ability for cost, illicit slot, or boost for autothrusters would have made it pretty good...instead it's crap.

And, to be on topic, TLTs double and triple attacks new world order would love to see this 3hp point sink on the other side of the table. Go ahead and point up to get it to 4hp, spend more points to protect a bad investment.

Since you are talking about some crazy odds to begin with, it's still possible to have Soontir without a Focus and end up rolling all eyeballs. I mean, you are well into the realm of hypothetical with the chances of what you mention. You said that it can be one shot at R3 and through an Asteroid. So....that's 5 dice for the Scyk and they will most likely have a Focus or Evade, as well. The chances of rolling 2 crits and then all blanks on defense is pretty far out there. The only real difference for Soontir is that he would have Autothrusters. I like them, but come on, if we are talking about such ridiculous odds here to the point that lack of autothrusters don't change things that much. It's actionless Stealth Soontir with Autothrusters vs actionless Stealth Laetin and the only difference is autothrusters.

More back to topic - If we take Laetin with Stealth Device and an action, the chances of him evading 3 red dice from a TLT are pretty strong. That gives him another Evade, which means the chances of him avoid damage on the 2 shot are also strong. Things start to snowball if he rolls enough evades without having to use a token and that token is then saved for the next attack. In fact, I would say Laetin has a better chance of survival than Soontir vs a 4 x TLT list. While the Autothrusters helps, the free Evade for each dodge is worth more. The odds of failing the first shot are not that high. Laetin is the perfect answer to a TLT list.

You can fit a 35 point Soontir in a 100 point list with 3 AC Tempests.

Surely that has a good chance at dealing with a Quad TLT list.

I think it's got a chance, although Soonts only has to get unlucky 3 times and the Tempests don't give you the PS advantage over Gold Y-Wings. He's pretty well set-up for the well-timed dash from outside R3 into the doughnut hole, though and all the time your opponent's concentrating on him the Old Reliable AC Tempests are plugging quietly away. It's a list I really like in general, TBH.

With 2 focus tokens, an evade, Autothrusters, and Stealth Device I can see him lasting a while. What's the mathwing on this?

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

I gave up when I realized I'd need to account for the fact that the defender only spends a token against the first attack if doing so would turn a hit to a miss.

I'm partially there. I can handle a single TLT attack, although not with evade token and stealth device. I can handle multiple attacks on the same target with stealth device focus and evade tokens, but not when the attacks are TLT. Need to update some plumbing in the scripts.

It's awkward at Range 3, where your 2-dice primary is offset by the extra die, and it's awkward at Range 1, where your TLT can't fire at all.

Yeah that's what I was thinking too.

Oh and interesting list, I may give that a try.

It's awkward at Range 3, where your 2-dice primary is offset by the extra die, and it's awkward at Range 1, where your TLT can't fire at all.

Yeah that's what I was thinking too.

Oh and interesting list, I may give that a try.

Apologies, 10 pages of thread to plow through and nothing stood our with you name.

Which list are you referring to?

Thank you

Which list are you referring to?

Vorpal Sword had a list in post 191, it's under the spoiler tag.

Which list are you referring to?

Vorpal Sword had a list in post 191, it's under the spoiler tag.

Duh... I feel foolish now since I even looked at that earlier.

Thank you again.

So how about this list: