Yes, but the prince can use system jammer, autothrusters, had 3 agility dice, and enough post dial movement options to exploit the donut hole.

He will be fine.

First, it is more of a "C" than a doughnut hole, as they can still fire primary weapons. Second, he will be hard pressed to be in all of the TLT holes. The odds are he will still be in range of 2 or 3 TLTs. Yes, Autothrusters will serve him well. Sensor Jammer feels like a waste on him against other lists, but would help against TLT spam. Glitterstim would help him close range. However, they do negate his ability, which is the reason I normally pick him over Guri.

Yes, but the prince can use system jammer, autothrusters, had 3 agility dice, and enough post dial movement options to exploit the donut hole.

He will be fine.

First, it is more of a "C" than a doughnut hole, as they can still fire primary weapons. Second, he will be hard pressed to be in all of the TLT holes. The odds are he will still be in range of 2 or 3 TLTs. Yes, Autothrusters will serve him well. Sensor Jammer feels like a waste on him against other lists, but would help against TLT spam. Glitterstim would help him close range. However, they do negate his ability, which is the reason I normally pick him over Guri.

Yes, but he is not all that afraid of the primary weapons if he's got friends around. Perhaps he will, through positioning and thrusters, live long enough to let the swarm get the upper hand. I guess it deserves to be tested at least.

I for one cannot see TLT-spam becoming a thing. There cannot possibly exist a duller list to play. Ugh.

Yes, but the prince can use system jammer, autothrusters, had 3 agility dice, and enough post dial movement options to exploit the donut hole.

He will be fine.

First, it is more of a "C" than a doughnut hole, as they can still fire primary weapons. Second, he will be hard pressed to be in all of the TLT holes. The odds are he will still be in range of 2 or 3 TLTs. Yes, Autothrusters will serve him well. Sensor Jammer feels like a waste on him against other lists, but would help against TLT spam. Glitterstim would help him close range. However, they do negate his ability, which is the reason I normally pick him over Guri.

Yes, but he is not all that afraid of the primary weapons if he's got friends around. Perhaps he will, through positioning and thrusters, live long enough to let the swarm get the upper hand. I guess it deserves to be tested at least.

Good point. Definitely worth testing, I just do not think it is a guaranteed win.

I for one cannot see TLT-spam becoming a thing. There cannot possibly exist a duller list to play. Ugh.

Which is why I hope it does not, but fear it will.

The real question is, just how many TLT's does it take to be dangerous? I'm thinking 2. By themselves, they don't do a whole lot. But you can't kill 2 hwks or y's fast enough and that's still 50 more points to spend on something else to counter TLT's inherent weaknesses.

Then again, as someone who loves flying soontir, a TLT spam list like this absolutely terrifies me

Palob Godalhi (20)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Feedback Array (2)

Spice Runner (16)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Feedback Array (2)

Spice Runner (16)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Feedback Array (2)

Spice Runner (16)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Feedback Array (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The real question is, just how many TLT's does it take to be dangerous? I'm thinking 2. By themselves, they don't do a whole lot. But you can't kill 2 hwks or y's fast enough and that's still 50 more points to spend on something else to counter TLT's inherent weaknesses.

Then again, as someone who loves flying soontir, a TLT spam list like this absolutely terrifies me

Palob Godalhi (20)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Feedback Array (2)

Spice Runner (16)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Feedback Array (2)

Spice Runner (16)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Feedback Array (2)

Spice Runner (16)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Feedback Array (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This list hard counters all fragile arc dodgers including soontir super hard. Even if you do somehow manage to get into the R1 hole without taking damage (good luck), 1-3 of the feedback arrays will just finish you off. Or the spread out and Palob takes your token. I dont know yet if this is genius or stupid.

Genius if you hate soontir

Stupid if you hate aggressors

I think it could be good against aggressors as well. Taking half the hit points off one of them in one round of feedback is pretty strong.

Also I have been running TLT in a way I haven't seen anywhere yet. Just a lone spice runner with tactician. I know a lot of people think you have to run 2+, or if you run one make it a named hwk or something, but I've had good success so far with mine.

The real question is, just how many TLT's does it take to be dangerous? I'm thinking 2. By themselves, they don't do a whole lot. But you can't kill 2 hwks or y's fast enough and that's still 50 more points to spend on something else to counter TLT's inherent weaknesses.

I think this is the trick. Come up with a solid way toto effectively implement at least a pair of TLTs (so, ~50 points minimum) and then something else that can make up for their deficiencies.

Something I got to proxy last week that was really fun, and I want to try more when my Wave VII order ships, is:

Warden Squadron Pilot — 23

— TLT — 6

— Intelligence Agent — 1

X2

Wild Space Fringer — 30

— HLC — 7

— Recon Specialist — 3

The K-Wings have some solid manoeuvrability, especially with SLAM to make or close distance. Two TLTs can provide some solid offence and overlap each other nicely, but the big advantage I feel the K-Wing provides over the Y-Wing as a TLT carrier is the Primary Turret throwing 3 red dice at Range 1. No bubble! Between that, the Intel Agents, and SLAM, they're absolutely worth the six points over a TLT Gold Sq Pilot. To balance out their low spike damage though, the HLC on the Fringer can make a huge difference against High-AGI ships. Get Fel or Jax in-arc and they start to get really nervous; doubly so when you can have both Wardens shoot first and try to strip tokens. Plus, in a pinch, the Fringer still has 3 red dice at R1 across 360°.

If you're Soontir, don't dive for the Feedback holes. Stay at range (preferably 2) of 1 TLT and pick it apart before moving on to the next.

If you're Soontir, don't dive for the Feedback holes. Stay at range (preferably 2) of 1 TLT and pick it apart before moving on to the next.

Yep, range control is going to be big against these guys.

Guri with sensor jammer and auto thruster generally isn't scared of TLT, Xizor will be in a similar boat. Sensor Jammer really is a great solution to TLT I evade and sensor jammer means that if they don't have a way to modify their dice most of the time that attack won't hit you. TLT spam will just take some getting used to both in list building and in flying against it as was stated already.

That Guri build is good against lots of other stuff, too, which is great. With Lone Wolf, she is very close to soloing a bunch of TLTs by herself. Throw in a couple baseline YVs circling the map and pounding on stuff, and you might have a really solid list.

Alright. So if this is such a great upgrade, do we think FFG has screwed up and created another phantom-level meta breaker that is going to need to be nerfed (which will be a lot harder with this than it was with the phantom itself)?

Completely okay with that. Decis and 2400's will still have a place in the meta, just with not 20+ points of upgrades on them. The non-TLT meta lists might swing to Super Corran and 4 Talas or Soontir and 5 Obsidians, or a Patrol Leader with Palpatine and 4 TIEs/naked patrol leader and 5 TIEs. Slapping an HLC on a 2400 with recon specialist and calling it a day might also be a thing. Generic Starvipers and A Wings and such with autothrusters will also be good meta plays now. Sensor Jammer will also actually be useful now, and as such will be a slight buff to generic E Wings. 3x Blackmoon squadron anyone? Lol.

Kind of ironic that the thing I'm most excited for to change up the meta is more turrets, hah. Can't wait to autowin against Super Dash. Now the Turretwing players will know what it's like.

[on paper they seem to punish hyper mobile fat turrets and the two ship meta in general besides for perhaps dual IG's and seem to reward high having many ships and massing your firepower.

That was my impression of them too, but virtually everyone seems to be saying that they also shred low hp/high agility targets (i.e. arc dodgers) as well and now Vorpal and Juggler are saying that the noticeably increase jousting efficiency as well. So according to the people who have actually played against them, as well as the people who can crunch the numbers better, they destroy both rock and scissors easily, and are really good against paper.

[on paper they seem to punish hyper mobile fat turrets and the two ship meta in general besides for perhaps dual IG's and seem to reward high having many ships and massing your firepower.

That was my impression of them too, but virtually everyone seems to be saying that they also shred low hp/high agility targets (i.e. arc dodgers) as well and now Vorpal and Juggler are saying that the noticeably increase jousting efficiency as well. So according to the people who have actually played against them, as well as the people who can crunch the numbers better, they destroy both rock and scissors easily, and are really good against paper.

You can easily proxy the turret and see for yourself. Any non-AT arc dodger gets shredded fast, and even with AT your low hp means you wont last that long.

The key is to spread your 4 TLT out a little once the opponent charges in. The discussion here largely assumes that 4TLT have to fly together, they dont have to do that at all,

R2-3is a huge radius of overlapping fire. So just spread out a little once you get charged and whichever ship you want to die first will be facing 4-6TLT shots even if they managed to 'hide' behind one of your ships. Not many pilots in the game will be able to take this much punishment for long. Or you just roll with triple-K and have no doughnut at all.

I'm completely fine with TLT's making it untenable to stack 5 different power upgrades on one shape. Will encourage leaner builds of ships and more variety instead of just 4/5 auto include upgrades and a ~60 point chunk of usually another ship with a bunch of power upgrades.

Will encourage leaner builds of ships and more variety

Not if they can efficiently kill everything else, which is what people are claiming. Then all we will ever see is 2-3 variations of 4 TLT builds.

It also propels HWKs of all ships into the competitive category.

Not quite sure what results you've been watching, but HWK's have been comptetitive for quite some time now. A bunch of 40+ pt Jans at Worlds, and I've seen a few successful Scum HWKs in the Regional results.

I'm completely fine with TLT's making it untenable to stack 5 different power upgrades on one shape. Will encourage leaner builds of ships and more variety instead of just 4/5 auto include upgrades and a ~60 point chunk of usually another ship with a bunch of power upgrades.

I wouldn't place your bets on the big ships, with a ton of upgrades, completely leaving viability. Remember, the Ghost is coming, and that thing is going to be a bucket load of points and upgrades.

Will encourage leaner builds of ships and more variety

Not if they can efficiently kill everything else, which is what people are claiming. Then all we will ever see is 2-3 variations of 4 TLT builds.

People are claiming incorrectly

Tlts have a hell of a time getting through thrusters

Also Juggler just ran the first sets of math. Tlts have exceptional jousting value for turrets (right up there with cheri or tie defenders) but still lower than conventional jousters

And just exactly how good are jousting numbers when you are talking about turrets.

And just exactly how good are jousting numbers when you are talking about turrets.

Pretty **** good when said turrets don't have falcon dials or large base boosts

Will encourage leaner builds of ships and more variety

Not if they can efficiently kill everything else, which is what people are claiming. Then all we will ever see is 2-3 variations of 4 TLT builds.

People are claiming incorrectly

Tlts have a hell of a time getting through thrusters

Also Juggler just ran the first sets of math. Tlts have exceptional jousting value for turrets (right up there with cheri or tie defenders) but still lower than conventional jousters

Only a handfull of ships can equip AT, and even they arent exactly safe because they've got low hp save for aggressors (ive seen it happen even to Fel).

So everybody else (most of the ships in the game) is just screwed...

Everyone else can joust them to death

If anyone has experience running bs and us and ks +1 agi in general, you know you don't want to run into the maw of a tie swarm

As for hwks, they have xwing defensive stats

Even fat PWTs have game against tlts with superior maneuverability + boost. Their 4 dice beat your range 2-3 tlt.

The rest is all about positioning and maneuvering (ie the game part of the game. Either you abuse tlt and win (range 3 concentrated fire is ideal) or you don't and you lose.

All I know is, Maarek is going to be doing some surgical strikes and fishing for specific crit...

Everyone else can joust them to death

No because the TLTs wont be jousting. You can spread them out however you want, their fire zone overlap is huge.

I can only imagine the hilarity of some guy trying to charge into 4TLT with Xwings, BWings and z95 (just to name some basic non-AT ships). They're barely faster than Ys (or not at all if youre a B) and you'll be loosing atleast one ship per round no matter what. Oh and you have to guess the TLTs moves right 100% of the time or else they'll just get free shots on you while you're repositioning. Good luck.