All those A-wings could work. Zip in fast and blast things. You have enough to allow bumpage.

Will it work vs. other lists?

I have been wanting to try my "**** your PWT" alternative to BBBBZ, the AAAAA

3 Green Squaddie (PTL, thrusters, refit) [22] = 66

2 prototypes (refit, thrusters) [17] = 34

total: 100

I don't find it as interesting as running procket jakes, a green, and 3 protos (only room for thrusters on jake), but if you hate TLTs as much as I hate PWTs, then you can't really go wrong

I don't understand how this does 2-3 damage.... It can only ever do a maximum of 2 damage right?

Attack 1: 2 hits 1 miss

Apply one damage to target, cancel rest of dice.

Attack 2: 1 hit 2 miss

Apply one damage to target, cancel rest of dice.

What am I missing?

it doesn't do 2-3 damage

the only way to get above a 2 damage max with TLT is to run tons of TLTs, which is what people are mainly concerned with

4Y has 24attack dice and 32hp. Even without the actionless rerolls of fat turrets throwing 24dice will give you atleast average returns much more often than rolling 6-8dice. It's just math. Sure these 24dice cap out at 8damage, but its a fairly reliable 8 damage simply because of the amount of dice/attacks that you have.

I'd like to point out that there are some fairly entrenched assumptions behind the statement "fairly reliable 8 damage" that are pretty easy to invalidate (see my earlier Guri loadout).

Is there any other ship that can hit the holy trinity of lone wolf / jammer / thrusters?

4Y has 24attack dice and 32hp. Even without the actionless rerolls of fat turrets throwing 24dice will give you atleast average returns much more often than rolling 6-8dice. It's just math. Sure these 24dice cap out at 8damage, but its a fairly reliable 8 damage simply because of the amount of dice/attacks that you have.

I'd like to point out that there are some fairly entrenched assumptions behind the statement "fairly reliable 8 damage" that are pretty easy to invalidate (see my earlier Guri loadout).

Is there any other ship that can hit the holy trinity of lone wolf / jammer / thrusters?

Aggressor

Oh, and the Punisher, but...

4Y has 24attack dice and 32hp. Even without the actionless rerolls of fat turrets throwing 24dice will give you atleast average returns much more often than rolling 6-8dice. It's just math. Sure these 24dice cap out at 8damage, but its a fairly reliable 8 damage simply because of the amount of dice/attacks that you have.

I'd like to point out that there are some fairly entrenched assumptions behind the statement "fairly reliable 8 damage" that are pretty easy to invalidate (see my earlier Guri loadout).

Is there any other ship that can hit the holy trinity of lone wolf / jammer / thrusters?

range 1 PWT

esp in arc

In our last tournament, Mu0n had a list of TLT ships... I got murdered, slowly, by them.

4Y has 24attack dice and 32hp. Even without the actionless rerolls of fat turrets throwing 24dice will give you atleast average returns much more often than rolling 6-8dice. It's just math. Sure these 24dice cap out at 8damage, but its a fairly reliable 8 damage simply because of the amount of dice/attacks that you have.

I'd like to point out that there are some fairly entrenched assumptions behind the statement "fairly reliable 8 damage" that are pretty easy to invalidate (see my earlier Guri loadout).Is there any other ship that can hit the holy trinity of lone wolf / jammer / thrusters?

I'm sure there isn't one that also gets a tasty free focus token for being right where you want to be against TLTs anyway.

Is there any other ship that can hit the holy trinity of lone wolf / jammer / thrusters?

Aggressor

Oh, and the Punisher, but...

Punishers can't get EPTs. Sadtimes.

Its one of the easiest lists to play succesfully...

...against the current metagame. 4x TLTs are a bad matchup for most of the prominent netlists right now. Against other kinds of lists, they're at least pushing uphill for exactly the reasons fickle mentions. Their PS is weak, their dials are moderate (Y-wing, especially with R2/Unhinged) or weak (K-wing, HWK), and they have no ability to reposition.

As Biophysical has said a couple of times now, the donut hole creates a problem for TLTs: either you spread out and risk losing the ability to focus fire, or you fly together and risk creating overlapping donuts. Either approach is exploitable.

I admit 4 Hired Thugs + TLT + Unhinged isn't a terribly difficult list to fly. I also admit it has great damage output (although it's not as good as, say, three HLCs or five Kihraxz or five AT Interceptors). But it's fairly fragile in comparison to other spam lists, and it has much more limited choices on the table than most current lists do, and as a result I can see (and have successfully used) an entire post's worth of strategies that can be used against them. I've asked you before, and now I'm curious again: have you tried any of the things I suggest in post #2? How did they work for you?

I'm absolutely willing to have that discussion with you, i'm just tired of some of the anti-PWT trolls here who now seem overly excited because the fat turrets get beaten by...another turret.

I think Keffish in post #246 summed up my concerns with TLT quite well:

"The feeling I get from our local group is that it might not be the gross efficiency of TLT spam that is getting people down, but the ease of flying/lack of skill required to perform well with it, against most matchups."

For months the complaint about Fat turrets was their relatively low skill-floor due to actionless modifiers (Predator, Han reroll/Chir ability, gunner) and super mobility (large base+boost). This did not mean, however, that these ships are easy to fly per se since you're pretty much always outgunned and outhp'ed. These ships did well in the tournament scene,however, because of the MOV favoring expensive ships and a shift towards more 60minute rounds as well as the relative reliability of their performance (lots of modifiers make up for bad dice luck).

So fast forward to now and what are 4TLT lists basically doing? They're (a lot) less mobile versions of Fat turrets, but the basic mechanics of reliable offense and reliable defense that got people upset with Fat turrets are still present.

4Y has 24attack dice and 32hp. Even without the actionless rerolls of fat turrets throwing 24dice will give you atleast average returns much more often than rolling 6-8dice. It's just math. Sure these 24dice cap out at 8damage, but its a fairly reliable 8 damage simply because of the amount of dice/attacks that you have.

Others have argued as well that what makes TLT so potent is the reliability of this damage output which should translate very well to a tournament setting, especially with all the token stripping.

On the defensive side you dont have effects such as c3p0 or r2d2, but you've got 32hp, which is alot more than most lists an definitely more than 2ship lists. And those 32hp never fail, unlike green dice. Again, this should translate quite well to a tournament setting where you play 5+ rounds and bad luck will always be a factor.

I have played a couple games with and against 4TLT and i welcome the challenge of beating it (playing with it is rather dull for me, personally). What i don't like is a) the simplicity of playing the list and b) my gut feeling that it will invalidate a good number of ships.

I do agree that the 2ship meta was getting a bit stale (although a 3ship list won nationals), but they might have gone slightly overboard with this particular counter. Personally (and this is just my opinion) i wouldve priced the turret at 7 or 8. 7 would mean you can bring 4Y+TLT and nothing else (those unhinged astros are by far the best choice, trust me -->4K into 3hard green is the cluch move) or at 8 you could bring 4Rebel Operatives+TLT which is a bit weaker than 4Y. And for builds with less than 4TLTs this wouldve had a rather minor impact.

And now Fat Turretwing players will know what it's like to lose to children smearing ice cream on their faces and beating them in the list building phase as opposed to actually outplaying them. That's all that matters, that they stop enjoying playing fat turrets so that we can go back to playing normal lists again.

Also, most ships with TLT are low agi, so will be utterly crushed by ordnance...

I am SO tired of people losing to this list or that list and claiming it was due to the other guy using a "no skillz noob list" or something along those lines.

4 x TLTs is eminently beatable. If they spread out, you isolate one and shoot it down. Your whole list vs. that one TLT, and his 2 potential damage just won't get the job done. If they concentrate, you crash into Range 1 and again keep many of those ships from shooting.

If you are playing TLTs, it is absolutely vital that you control range and arc, but TLTs go on ships that are terribly suited to do that. It takes some serious predictive skills to make it work, you cannot just plop down and hope to succeed against a competent opponent no matter what list he has.

Watch my round 1 TC Aces game. I had some luck, yes, but then again the results weren't close and I was running what conventional wisdom would consider a terrible list to face TLTs with (3 Interceptors vs 4 TLTs with an Ion bomb and R3A2). More to the point, my opponent is one of the finest players in the world so you cannot claim it was due to some sort of incompetence on his part (besides, aren't TLTs supposed to be easy mode?).

TLTs like any turret list are "forgiving".

"forgiving" is often confused or otherwise replaced with easy.

Paragoomba Slayer, did a PWT come and kick your dog or burn down your house? I'm sensing some anger here...

Had a friend play an interesting list in a tournament the other day:

3 Y's with TLT

Biggs with hull upgrade.

I liked the idea. Sure you give up a TLT, but Biggs provides a good layer of protection. I beat it with phantom, Maarek, and Emperor shuttle, but it went on to take 3rd! After playing it, I definitely think TLT spam could be a solid list when flown well, but not overpowered.

Edit: Btw, the official acronym for his list was BLT.

the only problem with biggs + TLT (and indeed why I find it difficult to build lists with only one) is that the TLT formation moves completely differently than the non-TLT one

Biggs can't run away like TLTs if the situation calls for it and still be effective. Poor guy has his arc to worry about

the only problem with biggs + TLT (and indeed why I find it difficult to build lists with only one) is that the TLT formation moves completely differently than the non-TLT one

Biggs can't run away like TLTs if the situation calls for it and still be effective. Poor guy has his arc to worry about

I mean, sure he can run away. The whole trick will be picking the right moment to disengage with Biggs: if your opponent turns to deal with him, your TLTs have a round of unopposed attacks. If he's ignored, then fire is going to go toward an undamaged Y-wing, and Biggs turns back in to take some potshots and disrupt your opponent's focus fire.

Just played a tournament with this list and found the limitations of the TLT lists. I actually built it to address shortcomings of 4 TLT lists and it did quite well for that, but it definitely dies to Dual IG, lots of cheap HP (Z-swarm), and A-Wing swarms.

Roark + TLT

Warden + TLT

Gold + TLT + R2

Gold + Autoblaster Turret + R2

Roark was amazing though, allowing me to get 1-2 shots off before a ship died. The ABT Gold gave me good R1 donut insurance and was great at scaring high agi ships. Though very dice dependent since I kept on rolling crits with the ABT (and rerolled one using a TL, back to a crit... :\)

My loss was to a dual IG list and a WSF+Outrider+Mangler with 4 Prototypes (no autothrusters). Dual IG is a given hard counter (though I got somewhat close with a few bad green rolls on his part)

For A-Wings/WSF, with only modifiers to half of my attacks (1 focus), it was a guessing game on when to use the focus and when to not use it, since the opponent has a focus too for his A-wings. In this instance, I chose to focus on taking out 1 A-Wing each turn with my 6 TLT and 1 Autoblaster attack, but ended up getting a little bit unlucky with dice. But it would still be a tough match with 4 A-Wings at various ranges of my turrets (some R1, some outside) and a WSF shooting Manglers on my shieldless ships from the edge. Keep in mind, the defender knows what your attack dice final result is before he has to spend his focus or not. If you rolled 3 hits (using a focus/TL) and doesn't have enough results to evade your hit, since it's only 1 damage anyways, he can save his focus for your next shot, which will probably be <3 hits, and then he can use his focus to deny it. So against 3 agi ships, I would argue that you can expect 1 damage at most per TLT, probably somewhere less because of the situational use of defense focus tokens.

The win was a massacre, against a Hound's Tooth and HWK. That list just had no chance, as expected.

IN the end, anything 2 agi or lower (and not enough HP) had a tough time against my list, and anything with 3 AGI (with our without AT) was hard for me to get through unless I got lucky with unmodified rolls.

So with that experience (and having flown various versions of the 3-4 TLT lists quite a few times now), I'd say:

• TLT spam lists are powerful, but much easier to counter than Fat Turrets (which I flew a lot of during Regionals/Nationals season)
• TLT lists requires quite a bit of predictive skill as someone said before. You *really* have to think to figure out how to trap the high agi ships and get the most TLTs on them as possible. Tough decisions like which ship to sacrifice for the block and which ones to fly away to get out of R1 for a TLT shot actually makes the list pretty challenging against a good player with highly maneuverable ships and with high AGI.
• I would rate TLT as slightly harder to fly than Fat Turrets, but only slightly. Both require good skill at the highest levels of play.
• There are a lot more counters to TLT spam than to Fat Turrets, so I'm happy to see it cull some of the Fat Turrets so more diversity comes back into the meta.
• 7 points would have been better with TLT, because I disagree with the person that said the extra 1 point for Unhinged/R2 is not significant. For someone who played a LOT of Y-Wing swarms (aka Thugzapper) in the past, the Unhinged and R2 ability on the Y is lifesaving when you need to do some stressful moves, K-turn, or get stressed by external factors. the TLT spam on the Y would be greatly weakened without Unhinged or R2. And preventing 4 HWK with Recon would have limited the threat a little. But at 6 points, it's strong but not broken IMHO.

IN the end, anything 2 agi or lower (and not enough HP) had a tough time against my list, and anything with 3 AGI (with our without AT) was hard for me to get through unless I got lucky with unmodified rolls.

Just curious, but which would be worse for your TLT list to face? 8 cheap Z-95's or 7 cheap Scyks? Both have TL and Focus. The Scyk has higher agility, but one less hit.

4 x TLTs is eminently beatable. If they spread out, you isolate one and shoot it down. Your whole list vs. that one TLT, and his 2 potential damage just won't get the job done. If they concentrate, you crash into Range 1 and again keep many of those ships from shooting.

They won't spread out if the player is half decent. But they neither stand in a cuddling pack so at best you are in range 1 of 1.

Is there any other ship that can hit the holy trinity of lone wolf / jammer / thrusters?

the only problem with biggs + TLT (and indeed why I find it difficult to build lists with only one) is that the TLT formation moves completely differently than the non-TLT one

Biggs can't run away like TLTs if the situation calls for it and still be effective. Poor guy has his arc to worry about

I mean, sure he can run away. The whole trick will be picking the right moment to disengage with Biggs: if your opponent turns to deal with him, your TLTs have a round of unopposed attacks. If he's ignored, then fire is going to go toward an undamaged Y-wing, and Biggs turns back in to take some potshots and disrupt your opponent's focus fire.

They won't spread out if the player is half decent. But they neither stand in a cuddling pack so at best you are in range 1 of 1.

And yes, obviously what the Ys should try and do is pack together at long range and spread out a bit as you get closer, but that's something that's going to take timing, judgement and finesse. Which goes back to the argument that it's not a list you can autofly and hope to do well against anyone with half an idea what they're doing.

4 x TLTs is eminently beatable. If they spread out, you isolate one and shoot it down. Your whole list vs. that one TLT, and his 2 potential damage just won't get the job done. If they concentrate, you crash into Range 1 and again keep many of those ships from shooting.

They won't spread out if the player is half decent. But they neither stand in a cuddling pack so at best you are in range 1 of 1.

I don't have Vassal or any other utility handy here at work, but sketching it out I'm having trouble picturing the kind of formation you mean. If it's not possible for a ship to be at Range 1 of more than 1 TLT, that means each TLT is at least 6 ship bases from the next (each donut hole has a radius of 1 range increment or 2.5 bases, and you need to have a gap of at least 1 base between the two donut holes so that a ship can't straddle them).

So if you're flying your TLTs in a formation where each ship is at Range 3 of the next, that's definitely the spread-out situation: from any approach angle, I'm exposed to fire from at most 3 TLTs, and possibly as few as 1.

So let's say instead that you're flying each ship at Range 2 from the others. That will be harder to deal with, but there will still be a number of "seams" where I can dive halfway between a pair of TLTs and end up at Range 1 of both of them. I'm not saying it's easy, but there really doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground for the TLTs: either you're so spread out that you can't focus all your ships on the same target, or you've created an opportunity for a savvy opponent to rush to Range 1 of multiple ships.

IN the end, anything 2 agi or lower (and not enough HP) had a tough time against my list, and anything with 3 AGI (with our without AT) was hard for me to get through unless I got lucky with unmodified rolls.

Just curious, but which would be worse for your TLT list to face? 8 cheap Z-95's or 7 cheap Scyks? Both have TL and Focus. The Scyk has higher agility, but one less hit.

It's a matter of consistency at that point. Both will be tough, but 8 Z's probably tougher just because it has more HP by far, and TLT can only do 2 damage most per turn. the Scyk might either die very fast or never die, just like a TIE Swarm. There was a guy who brought 7 Z's and a Prototype and I definitely did not want to face that list.