Thing is that there already are several answers to close formation flying TLT-Ywings.

-Assault missiles

-seismic bombs

-Ion torpedoes

-proton bombs

-connor nets

And if they spread out? Get on their flanks and jump to range 1.

Might not be easy. But it rewards skill. And thus equals fun to me.

I do, but I'll be happy next tournament season when Fat Turrets aren't around as much. Even if many smaller turrets is required to kill it. It's something different!

And if they spread out? Get on their flanks and jump to range 1.

Might not be easy. But it rewards skill. And thus equals fun to me.

This comment doesnt make any sense to me.

- It's close to impossible to get into R1 of every turret if there's 4 of them and they spread out even a little bit. So if you flank one you catch fire from 2-3 other TLTs and vice versa.

-Why should it take way more skill to counter 4TLT than to play 4TLT?

In a balanced game both would take equal skill, but in this case it does not. I have flown 4Y with unhinged a couple times now, it's one of the easiest lists to play succesfully (way easier than playing Han or Chir ever was).

-I dont get why some trolls in this forum seem to enjoy the prospect of ruining the fat turret players enjoyment of the game. You know these people can switch to TLT just like you did, right? There is literally nothing to stop people from playing the most cheesy builds out there. 6Months ago it was Phantoms, 3 Months ago it was PWT, now it's TLT.

I think I did not say get in range 1 of all of them.

Might be that English is my second (third?) language.

If they do not spread out properly you can hammer them with all kinds of solutions.

If they do spread out you can get into range 1. Combined with focus fire and higher PS you should be able to melt one Y.

Not easy. But doable.

And to those wo gravitate to the 'easiest netlists'? Fine by me.

Each to their own.

I myself think playing turrets are as boring as watching paint dry.

Although I've said this at least twice during this thread, I think it's important, so I'm going to say it again, because I think a lot of people still don't get it, and it opens up anti-TLT tactics for all kinds of lists:

Lists with 4xTLTs (low PS HWKs and Y-wings) will have poor maneuverability and terrible range control. If they spread out to cover each other's range 1 band, they leave themselves open to engagement on the edges, where only one or two ships can concentrate fire on the opposing squad (less if one is PS killed). If they cluster to concentrate fire better, they have overlapping Range 1 bands that allow maneuverable ships to thread the needle and avoid all shots for a significant number of turns.

Furthermore, as the squad attacking a TLT formation, you don't have to dodge all the turrets. Getting into Range 1 or out of Range 3 of even one or two opposing TLTs while concentrating fire with your squad can have a huge effect over the course of the game as you are able to concentrate fire more effectively. Basically, you don't have to be a super-maneuverable ship to gain a positional advantage on these guys. You do have to work out a bit of a plan during deployment, however, to attack the formation in ways where you deny focused fire. This isn't always going to be obvious, but it's not magic, and it doesn't take a TIE Interceptor to make it happen.

I faced off against my first 4 Y-Wing with TLT this weekend as the last match of a tournament. My dual IG won through some good maneuvering, use of ion and stress and many, many autothruster uses. I must confess, it is a very scary list to face off against.

My gut feeling is:

- It takes some careful planning / flying to beat this list, but it is doable.

- Even if flown casually, that list can still cause a lot of damage to many lists that were the top of the meta.

- The combination of the above 2 statements make me believe that it will be flown in tournaments from this point on, which means that planning against it will be a necessity.

As a side note: I was looking forward to using Talonbane Cobra, but I'm not sure that I'll want to, at least not for tournaments.

Swarms are a definite threat to a Max and even Min TLT list.

Finished first at a 12 player store tournament flying:

2 Gold w/ TLT, Bomb Loadout, Seismics

Corran w/ R2D2, FCS, PtL, Engine Upgrade

Last game was against an 8 TIE Swarm (Academies w/ Backstabber). It was an intense match. I lost both Y's about halfway through and had only destroyed one TIE. However, almost his entire squadron was down to 1 HP. Through some lucky rolls and good flying (not to mention Corran's innate incredibleness), I was able to remove a TIE fighter almost every turn after. Corran is crazy, but without the turrets, he would have had a much more difficult time.

I also flew against a Biggs Walks the Dogs variation, Darth Vader and Kenkirk w/ Palpatine, and the World's Falcon list from last year.

I'm not a fan of the full on TLT squadrons. They'll pay for their one-sided-ness. I think a mixture is the way to go. My particular set up offers the opponent two really bad choices: one, go for Corran since he's the end game threat, but be torn apart by consistent fire from the Y's, or, two, go for the Y's since their softer targets and have to deal with Corran in the end game. Bad news all around.

And if they spread out? Get on their flanks and jump to range 1.

Might not be easy. But it rewards skill. And thus equals fun to me.

This comment doesnt make any sense to me.

- It's close to impossible to get into R1 of every turret if there's 4 of them and they spread out even a little bit. So if you flank one you catch fire from 2-3 other TLTs and vice versa.

-Why should it take way more skill to counter 4TLT than to play 4TLT?

In a balanced game both would take equal skill, but in this case it does not. I have flown 4Y with unhinged a couple times now, it's one of the easiest lists to play succesfully (way easier than playing Han or Chir ever was).

-I dont get why some trolls in this forum seem to enjoy the prospect of ruining the fat turret players enjoyment of the game. You know these people can switch to TLT just like you did, right? There is literally nothing to stop people from playing the most cheesy builds out there. 6Months ago it was Phantoms, 3 Months ago it was PWT, now it's TLT.

TLT is also a tamer version of Turretwing so if all the Fat Turret players switched to it overnight a meta dominated by 50% quad TLT would still be better than 50% fat turret.

4TLT Y is nowhere near as bad as a Fat Han.

A lot less boring too. For me. (the one playing against it that is)

As for playing turrets myself?

I can see me playing a turret Y or HWK. Perhaps even two.

But that would be the most I could bear.

I prefer A-wings and Interceptors. Far more rewarding if you play them well.

Just my 2 cts. Peace. And fly casual.

-I dont get why some trolls in this forum seem to enjoy the prospect of ruining the fat turret players enjoyment of the game. You know these people can switch to TLT just like you did, right? There is literally nothing to stop people from playing the most cheesy builds out there. 6Months ago it was Phantoms, 3 Months ago it was PWT, now it's TLT.

You missed some cheesy lists. Fat Turrets. These guys have been dominating the tournament lists for a long time. They are boring to play against. The meta was stale. TLT's will force a lot of Fat Turrets to play something else. This is good for the game. It's good for the enjoyment of the hobby. I was on the edge of never going to a tournament again as I am just sick of facing the same lists over and over again. I see TLT's as shaking the meta up enough that there isn't one meta that dominates.

I also don't think I "troll". I am just happy to see Fat Turrets fail. I don't give a jawa's nose about the feeling of fat turret players. Their boost out of arc, shoot, and run has had it's day. Learn to play a new list.

people assuming TLT will be cheesy are going to be in for a wonderful surprise if they ever try to flop down 4 Ys or Hwks and find that

a. the dial is no longer incredible (the exact opposite in fact)

b. the PS is comparatively subterranean

c. losing a portion of your squad's damage output to the doughnut hole is strictly worse than getting an extra die

d. there's no boost or roll or anything to bail the ships out, just good ole fashioned foresight

people assuming TLT will be cheesy are going to be in for a wonderful surprise if they ever try to flop down 4 Ys or Hwks and find that

a. the dial is no longer incredible (the exact opposite in fact)

b. the PS is comparatively subterranean

c. losing a portion of your squad's damage output to the doughnut hole is strictly worse than getting an extra die

d. there's no boost or roll or anything to bail the ships out, just good ole fashioned foresight

I had a good laugh at that. Its one of the easiest lists to play succesfully. Too funny.

go forth and conquer then

you have such faith in your assertions, now all you gotta do is sally forth and prove the world that TLT is easy mode

Its one of the easiest lists to play succesfully...

...against the current metagame. 4x TLTs are a bad matchup for most of the prominent netlists right now. Against other kinds of lists, they're at least pushing uphill for exactly the reasons fickle mentions. Their PS is weak, their dials are moderate (Y-wing, especially with R2/Unhinged) or weak (K-wing, HWK), and they have no ability to reposition.

As Biophysical has said a couple of times now, the donut hole creates a problem for TLTs: either you spread out and risk losing the ability to focus fire, or you fly together and risk creating overlapping donuts. Either approach is exploitable.

I admit 4 Hired Thugs + TLT + Unhinged isn't a terribly difficult list to fly. I also admit it has great damage output (although it's not as good as, say, three HLCs or five Kihraxz or five AT Interceptors). But it's fairly fragile in comparison to other spam lists, and it has much more limited choices on the table than most current lists do, and as a result I can see (and have successfully used) an entire post's worth of strategies that can be used against them. I've asked you before, and now I'm curious again: have you tried any of the things I suggest in post #2? How did they work for you?

He's just upset that the 2 ship Fat Turret meta is dead.

The meta is dead. Good riddance. Long live the meta!

oh god the K

I have to mention this because I love the drunken albatross so much, but it's a horrible ship for anything outside of TLT Miranada or bombs/mines (int agent shenanigans and perhaps even auto-blaster turret, since it combos well with int agent)

And I say this after frequently running a TLT warden with A-slam and conners as part of a 3 tlt team (miri, k, y). Poor thing really contributes so little, frequently getting outdamaged by the little gold squadron because people started learning how to pour fire onto it.

Poor guy can't take a hit at its price

on the flipside, it is an unparalleled bomber (and Miri is pretty **** nasty too)

which I find kinda funny because TLT comes with it, but then again that's probably Y they included two of them

Its one of the easiest lists to play succesfully...

...against the current metagame. 4x TLTs are a bad matchup for most of the prominent netlists right now. Against other kinds of lists, they're at least pushing uphill for exactly the reasons fickle mentions. Their PS is weak, their dials are moderate (Y-wing, especially with R2/Unhinged) or weak (K-wing, HWK), and they have no ability to reposition.

As Biophysical has said a couple of times now, the donut hole creates a problem for TLTs: either you spread out and risk losing the ability to focus fire, or you fly together and risk creating overlapping donuts. Either approach is exploitable.

I admit 4 Hired Thugs + TLT + Unhinged isn't a terribly difficult list to fly. I also admit it has great damage output (although it's not as good as, say, three HLCs or five Kihraxz or five AT Interceptors). But it's fairly fragile in comparison to other spam lists, and it has much more limited choices on the table than most current lists do, and as a result I can see (and have successfully used) an entire post's worth of strategies that can be used against them. I've asked you before, and now I'm curious again: have you tried any of the things I suggest in post #2? How did they work for you?

I'm absolutely willing to have that discussion with you, i'm just tired of some of the anti-PWT trolls here who now seem overly excited because the fat turrets get beaten by...another turret.

I think Keffish in post #246 summed up my concerns with TLT quite well:

"The feeling I get from our local group is that it might not be the gross efficiency of TLT spam that is getting people down, but the ease of flying/lack of skill required to perform well with it, against most matchups."

For months the complaint about Fat turrets was their relatively low skill-floor due to actionless modifiers (Predator, Han reroll/Chir ability, gunner) and super mobility (large base+boost). This did not mean, however, that these ships are easy to fly per se since you're pretty much always outgunned and outhp'ed. These ships did well in the tournament scene,however, because of the MOV favoring expensive ships and a shift towards more 60minute rounds as well as the relative reliability of their performance (lots of modifiers make up for bad dice luck).

So fast forward to now and what are 4TLT lists basically doing? They're (a lot) less mobile versions of Fat turrets, but the basic mechanics of reliable offense and reliable defense that got people upset with Fat turrets are still present.

4Y has 24attack dice and 32hp. Even without the actionless rerolls of fat turrets throwing 24dice will give you atleast average returns much more often than rolling 6-8dice. It's just math. Sure these 24dice cap out at 8damage, but its a fairly reliable 8 damage simply because of the amount of dice/attacks that you have.

Others have argued as well that what makes TLT so potent is the reliability of this damage output which should translate very well to a tournament setting, especially with all the token stripping.

On the defensive side you dont have effects such as c3p0 or r2d2, but you've got 32hp, which is alot more than most lists an definitely more than 2ship lists. And those 32hp never fail, unlike green dice. Again, this should translate quite well to a tournament setting where you play 5+ rounds and bad luck will always be a factor.

I have played a couple games with and against 4TLT and i welcome the challenge of beating it (playing with it is rather dull for me, personally). What i don't like is a) the simplicity of playing the list and b) my gut feeling that it will invalidate a good number of ships.

I do agree that the 2ship meta was getting a bit stale (although a 3ship list won nationals), but they might have gone slightly overboard with this particular counter. Personally (and this is just my opinion) i wouldve priced the turret at 7 or 8. 7 would mean you can bring 4Y+TLT and nothing else (those unhinged astros are by far the best choice, trust me -->4K into 3hard green is the cluch move) or at 8 you could bring 4Rebel Operatives+TLT which is a bit weaker than 4Y. And for builds with less than 4TLTs this wouldve had a rather minor impact.

well that's just the thing, isn't it

I'd far rather by against a list that can be outplayed rather than be outgunned and out hped (i.e, outdiced)

then it feels like I'm actually playing a tactical game, instead of playing craps

and that's the thing, really. TLT is vastly different than PWT, and incredibly skill (re: maneuvering, a.k.a the actual game part of the game) dependent. Sure, they don't have the fancy "wait till everyone moves then boost away," but that's exactly what makes them skill dependent. There is no re-do, no real forgiveness for ******* up with clunkers that have to move first. There's just you, your positioning, and your foresight; the last of which is something I believe we've really been missing ever since fat PWTs took the field.

even better, they actually make PWTs have to work for their wins. No longer is farting around the table edge enough and the incredibly dull experience of PS 9 move in whatever direction and boost out of arcs is heavily mitigated by the turret nature of TLTs. Now we got ourselves an actual game of cat and mouse going on, where positioning is key and not so trivially ignored. Does the PWT dive into range 1 and enjoy itself a nice snack? Do the TLTs effectively spread so that they're not stone-walled by their own doughnut-hole while simultaneously not leaving their buddies out to dry.

there's also far less chance of a single dice-spike flipping the game over with a max of 1 damage per roll, so hurrah for that as well

this assumption that TLTs replacing PWTs will somehow change nothing couldn't be further from the truth. The two types of turrets (yay alliteration!) are at diametric odds with one another.

Great word: diametric.

hopefully used correctly

I'm still stuck in my wordy college days, where it was more about impressing the profs than presenting useful info (at least until you got into junior year and into your major)

never really got that bad habit taken care of

well that's just the thing, isn't it

I'd far rather by against a list that can be outplayed rather than be outgunned and out hped (i.e, outdiced)

then it feels like I'm actually playing a tactical game, instead of playing craps

and that's the thing, really. TLT is vastly different than PWT, and incredibly skill (re: maneuvering, a.k.a the actual game part of the game) dependent. Sure, they don't have the fancy "wait till everyone moves then boost away," but that's exactly what makes them skill dependent. There is no re-do, no real forgiveness for ******* up with clunkers that have to move first. There's just you, your positioning, and your foresight; the last of which is something I believe we've really been missing ever since fat PWTs took the field.

even better, they actually make PWTs have to work for their wins. No longer is farting around the table edge enough and the incredibly dull experience of PS 9 move in whatever direction and boost out of arcs is heavily mitigated by the turret nature of TLTs. Now we got ourselves an actual game of cat and mouse going on, where positioning is key and not so trivially ignored. Does the PWT dive into range 1 and enjoy itself a nice snack? Do the TLTs effectively spread so that they're not stone-walled by their own doughnut-hole while simultaneously not leaving their buddies out to dry.

there's also far less chance of a single dice-spike flipping the game over with a max of 1 damage per roll, so hurrah for that as well

this assumption that TLTs replacing PWTs will somehow change nothing couldn't be further from the truth. The two types of turrets (yay alliteration!) are at diametric odds with one another.

You argue that 4TLT Y is extremely skill dependent to fly. My experience so far has been the exact opposite, it seems like an easy list to fly, especially with the unhinged astros.

Seems we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Its one of the easiest lists to play succesfully...

...against the current metagame. 4x TLTs are a bad matchup for most of the prominent netlists right now. Against other kinds of lists, they're at least pushing uphill for exactly the reasons fickle mentions. Their PS is weak, their dials are moderate (Y-wing, especially with R2/Unhinged) or weak (K-wing, HWK), and they have no ability to reposition.

As Biophysical has said a couple of times now, the donut hole creates a problem for TLTs: either you spread out and risk losing the ability to focus fire, or you fly together and risk creating overlapping donuts. Either approach is exploitable.

I admit 4 Hired Thugs + TLT + Unhinged isn't a terribly difficult list to fly. I also admit it has great damage output (although it's not as good as, say, three HLCs or five Kihraxz or five AT Interceptors). But it's fairly fragile in comparison to other spam lists, and it has much more limited choices on the table than most current lists do, and as a result I can see (and have successfully used) an entire post's worth of strategies that can be used against them. I've asked you before, and now I'm curious again: have you tried any of the things I suggest in post #2? How did they work for you?

I'm absolutely willing to have that discussion with you, i'm just tired of some of the anti-PWT trolls here who now seem overly excited because the fat turrets get beaten by...another turret.

The "anything is better than PWT" brigade is way off-base, and has been for several months at this point. Large ships that depend on out-of-arc attacks aren't inherently bad or evil; the problem is that they've become the center of the metagame, which has cut down on overall diversity. An element that pushes them out to some degree is a good thing, to me, because it will reverse that "demographic" trend.

4Y has 24attack dice and 32hp. Even without the actionless rerolls of fat turrets throwing 24dice will give you atleast average returns much more often than rolling 6-8dice. It's just math. Sure these 24dice cap out at 8damage, but its a fairly reliable 8 damage simply because of the amount of dice/attacks that you have.

Others have argued as well that what makes TLT so potent is the reliability of this damage output which should translate very well to a tournament setting, especially with all the token stripping.

Sure. But it's easy to counter--just bring cheap hit points. A Z-95 swarm is not a popular list right now, but if TLT spam is your main concern it's going to eat them alive. Even a 40-45 point Decimator is in decent shape, as far as defensive efficiency is concerned. And the lack of mitigation on the part of the 4Y list is a serious drawback, in comparison to what people are used to flying and facing.

Personally (and this is just my opinion) i wouldve priced the turret at 7 or 8.

I would have been happy to see it at 7 points, but I don't think it's broken at 6. The difference, as you say, is the ability to bring an astromech (on 4Y) or crew (on 4x HWK), and I'm not sure missing the Unhinged/R2 makes a 4Y TLT spam list that much easier to fly or harder to kill.

For months the complaint about Fat turrets was their relatively low skill-floor due to actionless modifiers (Predator, Han reroll/Chir ability, gunner) and super mobility (large base+boost). This did not mean, however, that these ships are easy to fly per se since you're pretty much always outgunned and outhp'ed. These ships did well in the tournament scene,however, because of the MOV favoring expensive ships and a shift towards more 60minute rounds as well as the relative reliability of their performance (lots of modifiers make up for bad dice luck).

I'm not sure where you've been the past few months, but most people haven't been complaining about how they took no skill. Oh, there were a few, but most didn't think so. I know I was one of the most vocal complaining about Fat Turrets. I think they took skill, but I thought they were terribly boring to play against. When half of the tournament lists have the same essential strategy of luring you to face it, and then turn and boost to get out of arc and lead them on a chase to victory. I developed good strategies to win with a Xizor and Z-95 swarm and surprised many fat turret opponents. Still, facing the same thing over and over again is what was driving me crazy. I'd show up at tournaments and at LEAST half the lists had some fat turret in it of one type or another. There was one small local event where two people out of twelve didn't bring a fat turret? I mean.....boring! The repetition is what was driving me bonkers.

MOV drastically favored them, too. I'll be happy when fat turrets are around 25% of the tournament results. That's reasonable. I think TLT's can do it. I don't think everyone will take TLT's though. They mostly beat the current meta. The new meta will be new.

What I see is a range of ships all doing well. I would like a more diverse meta and you won't see that until people quit playing blasted fat turrets. I think you need to have a few things that will just destroy Fat Turrets to see them stop being used so much.

there is nothing in the game that's skill independent

even PWTs have to plan ahead in order to keep their options open. They're just the closest to skill-independent because there's no counterplay apart from stacking more dice against them than their dice + mitigation can trade against you. Horribly dull to play against.

no amount of arc-dodging or positioning will overcome a 360, range 1-3 weapon; only dice can. And that, I feel, makes for some pretty sleep-inducing "gameplay"

now we get tlts with stiff ships at low PS and a doughnut-hole, there is an emphasis on both players maneuvers like there never was with a PWT involved. Even PWTs have to care now that they can be trivially out-turreted unless they position well (range 1), and that's just magical

there's an exciting new meta in the works

So, what about A-Wings as counters to TLT Y-WIngs?

You can have six Prototype Pilots with Refit, and five of them get Autothrusters.

Or you can have four Green Squadron Pilots (19) with Push The Limit (3), Chaardan Refit (-2), Autothrusters (2), Title (0) and Predator/Outmanoever (3), for 25 points each.

This list has the PS advantage and you can turtle up with Focus/Evade. You want to attack at range one from outside the arc, so you only get at most 6 attacks at you. Then you are rolling three dice, either with rerolls or against no evade dice. You have the boost to cover distance quickly (you could stay out of range, boost into range one, then five forward and boost to get out of range again). And with tokens, three greens, thrusters, you should be able to survive some attacks.

What are your thoughts?