Jan and Dash will have way better range control and PS than multi-TLT lists. Consequently, they'll be able to nibble the edges of formations, probably killing one ship a turn with only one ship (or no ships) returning fire. A TLT block would have to try and box them in somewhere to get lots of shots on Jan, but then she and Dash can boost into their Range 1 gaps for a safe turn before going out to the edges again. That's how I see it happening anyway.

I think the biggest mistake people will make with these lists on paper is to assume you'll be able to concentrate all guns on one target consistently. With the PS and dial of most of the carriers in massed TLT lists, it's just not going to happen.

In general it is not a bad list, but it depends what they are flying against. Higher PS lists can take advantage of the R1 holes or staying out of arc to get thrusters.

The build I have been running, PS8 HLC/FCS BroBots for example, will eat PS7 Dash + PS8 Jan for breakfast. If Jan is out front then Jan will fire twice (at most) and Dash will get the +1 die once, and then it will be 2 BroBots vs Dash. If Jan is in back then on the first turn the bots 2v1 focus fire on Dash and Jan gets no shot. Either way, it won't come close to the firepower and positional ability of Autothrusters + HLC + FCS + Gunner that moves after Jan.

You might run into a similar problem against mobile PS9 lists, or even Kenkirk+Palpatine / Fel.

I agree. Brobots would likely eat this for breakfast, lunch and dinner. You would have to pull off some impressive flying. If they don't have VI you do have the PS advantage. Otherwise you are kind of screwed. I was just impressed how effective it was against non-mobile lists.

I'd like to run it against Fel/Deci combo. I think if you can kill Fel off early you have a shot. I think you would need to use the rocks to keep the Decimator at a distance and hopefully keep Fel out of the donuts.

You can also run Dash with Mangler. You don't get the outright damage of the 5 dice HLC, but the crit can make up for that. Also, Dash no longer has a donut hole. It leaves you 3 points to throw a Procket on Dash. Not too helpful but you don't really need a 3 point bid.

Well, my Jax's Punishment list is getting a workout vs old meta... just pulled a win off against HLC Dash and ABT Miranda. SJ/AT Punishers are fricking tanks.

What's that list?

Played 4 syndicate thugs with TLT and unhinged astromechs tonight and absolutely wrecked a TIE Swarm w/ Howlrunner and a BroBot list. Both of them got crippled in the first exchange. Howlrunner went down hard to just two of the TLTs, and I caught 88B in my front arcs in Round 2 so autothrusters were a no go and he went down to all 4 TLT's. Granted, especially against the BroBots, that was some lucky shooting, but I was pretty amazed at how well they did across from lists i didn't expect them to fair well against.

Having noted how effective they are, I can easily say it was not really all that fun to play. Flying one turret ship in a circle is boring enough. Flying your entire list in a circle is mind numbing. They may be just what was needed to reign in lists like Fat Han, but it seems like they're only creating a new not fun thing to play with/against.

So not only did you roll well, but that IG-88B got caught in your firing arc at Range 2? I'm not in the camp where if you don't play arc-dodgers perfectly your results don't count, but it seems to me that if your opponent made a mistake and the dice leaned your way, you have to at least put an asterisk on that win from a playtesting perspective.

As far as the TIE swarm, I think it's going to take some fancy range control to really make TIE swarms work. You really can't afford to engage at Range 3, and what you'd most like to do is use their speed to jump from just outside Range 3 to Range 1 in a single round, with as much of your list as possible.

Looking back at post #2, TIE fighters are relatively cheap hit points, but they rely mostly on green dice, which means they're an okay but not great matchup against TLTs. I think something like five or six generic Headhunters plus an ace (preferably one with Autothrusters) might be more the right speed, since the TLTs are likely to kill two TIE fighters in a turn's worth of attacks, but (probably) only one Z-95.

Oh certainly, I'm definitely chocking the BroBots game up to mostly some lucky dice rolls. Also, in our first exchange he was expecting me to continue on forward, and instead I took advantage of the unhinged astros ability to do that 3 hard turn facing right at where he ended up being, and then the dice went my way. I also had the advantage of BroBots being the list I run the most, so I'm very familiar with how it works. Also, he rolled a lot of eyeballs, and not many blanks, so even if he had been at range 3 or out of my arcs the round was just going against him. There were a lot of caveats that led to it going down like it did.

Having said all that, the numbers are still just in favor of the TLTs against 3 green dice unless they can get autothrusters working, which of course we all knew before they came out, its was just kind of eye opening to see it in action.

Well, my Jax's Punishment list is getting a workout vs old meta... just pulled a win off against HLC Dash and ABT Miranda. SJ/AT Punishers are fricking tanks.

What's that list?

Carnor Jax with PTL stealth and AT, And a pair of Black Eight Punishers (the PS4 ones) with Sensor Jammer, Autothrusters, concussion missiles and extra munitions.

I got a nasty loss when I messed up my approach on a 2Blue, 2Green and a bandit swarm list. I definately could have flown it better, but it does seem to be a disadvantaged matchup.

Rules question: Since you only declare 1 target when attacking with TLT (unlike Y-Wing Title doubletap and other abilities), if your target dies from the first attack (because it only had 1hp left), should you be able to shoot another target with the second attack? We always played it like you could, but upon further review i'm not so sure. Probably wouldnt matter that much, but this might need a faq.

Second attack is wasted. See Cluster Missiles for precedent iirc.

Rules question: Since you only declare 1 target when attacking with TLT (unlike Y-Wing Title doubletap and other abilities), if your target dies from the first attack (because it only had 1hp left), should you be able to shoot another target with the second attack? We always played it like you could, but upon further review i'm not so sure. Probably wouldnt matter that much, but this might need a faq.

Second attack is wasted. See Cluster Missiles for precedent iirc.

^ That.

There is only one declare target step, and therefore only one ship can be attacked. With the A4 title, you declare an attack with reach weapon. As Tipperary said, refer to the cluster missile card.

So it's a definite entry into the darkest dark side of the two ship meta, but whisper/oicun seems pretty good on paperfor fighting tlt. Whisper wants/needs recon spec for this match up.

I got a single test game in against a four ship rebel list of 2 bs with tac and two ys with tlt and r2. Some really clutch decloaks involved but it was 100-0 in favor of the imps

So it's a definite entry into the darkest dark side of the two ship meta, but whisper/oicun seems pretty good on paperfor fighting tlt. Whisper wants/needs recon spec for this match up.

I got a single test game in against a four ship rebel list of 2 bs with tac and two ys with tlt and r2. Some really clutch decloaks involved but it was 100-0 in favor of the imps

I think Phantoms, especially with Sensor Jammer, are a genuinely scary prospect for TLTs. Decimators, I'm not so sure about unless you really dial back on the upgrades. Focused fire from the Rebels should have taken Oicunn out in 2-3 rounds... I don't know, if the Phantom freaked your opponent out enough to draw some bad choices I guess it looks better, and you can afford to trade Oicunn away to get a turret off the board.

I think the classic 'doomshuttle, fel, whisper' list could work quite nicely against tlt spam. You can afford an initiative bid, they can't, so all three ships will be moving after the goldies. Whisper and Fel are both very well equipped to deal good damage whilst dodge tanking, and if they decide to burn the shuttle down for a round or two, great! With good dice you could be looking at one y-wing gone in the first round of fire, leaving you with a pretty nice list to prey on those poor rookie pilots. Bad dice will still leave one limping with at least 1 crit, with Whisper well placed to finish it off with its FCS target lock next round ... Only drawback is Whisper can't afford that sensor jammer upgrade.

I think the classic 'doomshuttle, fel, whisper' list could work quite nicely against tlt spam. You can afford an initiative bid, they can't, so all three ships will be moving after the goldies. Whisper and Fel are both very well equipped to deal good damage whilst dodge tanking, and if they decide to burn the shuttle down for a round or two, great! With good dice you could be looking at one y-wing gone in the first round of fire, leaving you with a pretty nice list to prey on those poor rookie pilots. Bad dice will still leave one limping with at least 1 crit, with Whisper well placed to finish it off with its FCS target lock next round ... Only drawback is Whisper can't afford that sensor jammer upgrade.

Echo could, though, and she's even better at the donut game than Whisper. She's not as good against the high-ps arc dodgers, but you do still have Fel and a doomshuttle for them.

I think the classic 'doomshuttle, fel, whisper' list could work quite nicely against tlt spam. You can afford an initiative bid, they can't, so all three ships will be moving after the goldies. Whisper and Fel are both very well equipped to deal good damage whilst dodge tanking, and if they decide to burn the shuttle down for a round or two, great! With good dice you could be looking at one y-wing gone in the first round of fire, leaving you with a pretty nice list to prey on those poor rookie pilots. Bad dice will still leave one limping with at least 1 crit, with Whisper well placed to finish it off with its FCS target lock next round ... Only drawback is Whisper can't afford that sensor jammer upgrade.

When I run Quad TLT Y-Wings I run them at 96 points in order to force a draw in a situation where 2 Y-Wings vs. a 48 point Super Corran go to time.

Anything to prevent a Corran player from enjoying himself.

(*) Find upgrades that work multiple times per round. TLTs really, really hate Sensor Jammer. They don't like trying to hit Luke Skywalker. They're not big fans of Glitterstim. They think Lone Wolf is obnoxious. They don't think Autothrusters are fun to shoot at. And that's all because typically, a TLT-heavy list makes a lot of unmodified attacks. That's how they're getting that reliability, but if you can modify your green dice against every incoming attack, you've gone a long way toward countering that advantage.

Anecdotal, but Guri with LW, AT, Title+SJ was able to shrug off TLT Miranda and Gunner Han pretty easily during a Summer Kit game yesterday. My main failing was missing opportunities (I'd roll my green dice and then realize that I'd neglected to activate SJ).

I don't know how well it would scale up to 8x attacks from the 4 I was facing, but given that we're then talking about 39 points vs. 100, I'll take them odds.

Lots of fun to fly, too.

(*) Find upgrades that work multiple times per round. TLTs really, really hate Sensor Jammer. They don't like trying to hit Luke Skywalker. They're not big fans of Glitterstim. They think Lone Wolf is obnoxious. They don't think Autothrusters are fun to shoot at. And that's all because typically, a TLT-heavy list makes a lot of unmodified attacks. That's how they're getting that reliability, but if you can modify your green dice against every incoming attack, you've gone a long way toward countering that advantage.

Anecdotal, but Guri with LW, AT, Title+SJ was able to shrug off TLT Miranda and Gunner Han pretty easily during a Summer Kit game yesterday. My main failing was missing opportunities (I'd roll my green dice and then realize that I'd neglected to activate SJ).I don't know how well it would scale up to 8x attacks from the 4 I was facing, but given that we're then talking about 39 points vs. 100, I'll take them odds.Lots of fun to fly, too.

What list where you running? Always interested in Starviper builds, that's why I don't worry to much about TLT infesting the meta, in that harsh environment the Starviper got the tools to survive, and reproduce...

Mass TLTs can be scary, but I've yet to see them be the "auto-death" alot of people are clamoring.

Bro-bots give negative **** about TLTs. Autothrusters, IG-88B, HLC and FCS on both IGs... there's a reasonable chance Ys are dying before you're even hit. Heck, IG-88A even becomes tempting. Him and B together autothrustering and HLCing Ys and HWKs and K-Wings should make for a brutal climb for the TLTs to actually overcome. And as terrifying as the list a few pages back looks with the HWKs with TLTs and Feedback Array... seriously, good luck ever catching an IG consistently with HWKs.

Lots of HP can be tough for em' to overcome. En masse, yeah, TLTs deal out a lot of damage... but their upside is capped hard. Other high HP ships aren't going to die in a turn of firing, which will give them time to kill TLT carriers.

Most TLT carriers also have zero defense against lots and lots of red dice. HLCs, Cluster Missiles, Phantoms, even focused 3-dice attacks, will melt them quickly. Ideal situation, you have higher PS and you fire (mostly) first, melting a TLT carrier off the board before it can fire. The quicker they die, the harder it'll be for their consistent plinks to end you. Higher HP, higher PS ordnance/HLC carriers will give TLTs fits. A mini-swarm with Redline at the helm should very easily result in a dead Y-Wing.

They're scary, they're brutal, but there's plenty that can overcome them. I've seen an INT trio do it without much worry.

Countermeasures

Large Ship Only. Modification.

At the start of the combat phase, you may discard this card to increase your agility value by 1 until the end of the round.

Then you may remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.

(*) Find upgrades that work multiple times per round. TLTs really, really hate Sensor Jammer. They don't like trying to hit Luke Skywalker. They're not big fans of Glitterstim. They think Lone Wolf is obnoxious. They don't think Autothrusters are fun to shoot at. And that's all because typically, a TLT-heavy list makes a lot of unmodified attacks. That's how they're getting that reliability, but if you can modify your green dice against every incoming attack, you've gone a long way toward countering that advantage.

Anecdotal, but Guri with LW, AT, Title+SJ was able to shrug off TLT Miranda and Gunner Han pretty easily during a Summer Kit game yesterday. My main failing was missing opportunities (I'd roll my green dice and then realize that I'd neglected to activate SJ).I don't know how well it would scale up to 8x attacks from the 4 I was facing, but given that we're then talking about 39 points vs. 100, I'll take them odds.Lots of fun to fly, too.

What list where you running? Always interested in Starviper builds, that's why I don't worry to much about TLT infesting the meta, in that harsh environment the Starviper got the tools to survive, and reproduce...

This put me in 2nd out of 8, though one of the round 1 winners was forced to drop due to unexpected personal stuff. Won vs. Han+Miranda and Whisper+Fel+APx2 (making me the only player with 2 wins going into game 3), lost vs. Warden+ordnance+ZZXX (only 6 hp left between the K and an X at the end), and that's where some of the key missed opportunities happened. Great games!

Guri (30)

Lone Wolf (2)

Sensor Jammer (4)

Autothrusters (2)

Virago (1)

Palob Godalhi (20)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Moldy Crow (3)

Trandoshan Slaver (29)

Greedo (1)

Tactician (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Next time I fly it, I'm going to replace the Tactician on the Slaver with Expert Handling on Palob. Being able to dodge R1 arcs and drop a TL for an arc I couldn't dodge? Yes, please.

So there are a couple of people on the other TLT thread who are concerned that the set of TLT counters is too narrow. One of the purposes of this thread was to demonstrate that's not so. Accordingly, I'd like to invite people to post lists they think can beat TLTs, or (like WickedGrey) lists they've already used to beat TLTs.

disclaimer; one game. Make of that what you will.

4x Unhinged TLT Y-wings lost vs:

[edit; typo]

Jax and the Punishers does well against TLT, but I lose to jousters.

Standard Howlrunner obsidian Swarm should pick it apart... Howl dies pretty quickly but, our swarms have a new place to shine - with the high agility making the TLT have a bit more trouble dealing it's damage - and large numbers of small guns which can pick apart Y-wing Agility, while having enough hull to tax the TLTs and whittle ships down more quickly than you'll lose guns.

Additionally, We can look to the Initiative bid, with the Obsidian swarm in a prime position to outbid the PS2 of the Y-wings. Firing first can even knock a TLT out before it fires.

Obsidian X 6
Howlrunner + Hull
99 points.

Given the damage coming out of the howl swarm - you should be able to trade 2 y-wings for 3 ties.

The variation of
Obsidian X4
Lt Coslet + FCS + Engine
Howlrunner + Hull may have a similarly good chance.

We can also try increasing the HP - and bringing back the bomber swarm.

Howlrunner + Swarm Tactics
Scimitar X5.

I suspect we may see a return of swarms, and a new cutoff of PS 2, giving life to the PS 3-6 metagame,which can only be a good thing. Especially given that the rebels can now make meaningful 5-7 ship builds, I'd expect - if the TLT is strong but balanced - and is predatory enough against the two ship meta and arc dodgers, that jousting lists may come back up and we'll have the most wide open meta of all.

The feeling I get from our local group is that it might not be the gross efficiency of TLT spam that is getting people down, but the ease of flying/lack of skill required to perform well with it, against most matchups.

The feeling I get from our local group is that it might not be the gross efficiency of TLT spam that is getting people down, but the ease of flying/lack of skill required to perform well with it, against most matchups.

Anything to kill the Fat Turret spam.

I'd say:

4 x Gamma Squadron Tie Bomber w/ Homing Missile + Extra Munitions.

They fire before the TLT's and will get the TL's on the first turn. What's the average of 4 red dice w/ TL? 2.x? You can take out one TLT in a turn and probably damage another. You lose a Tie Bomber that turn, but 3 left with Homing Missiles. You take out another in the 2nd turn. You don't lose a Tie Bomber. After that, you have standard guns to take out the rest and get in R1. Gets a bit risky after the missiles are gone, but it stands a chance.

The feeling I get from our local group is that it might not be the gross efficiency of TLT spam that is getting people down, but the ease of flying/lack of skill required to perform well with it, against most matchups.

Anything to kill the Fat Turret spam.

At least it's DIFFERENT than Fat Turret spam.

I'll be happy to play against something different.

Still, I don't think TLT's will be seen in as great numbers as Fat Turrets, so it will hopefully just shake up the meta to have a better variety.

The feeling I get from our local group is that it might not be the gross efficiency of TLT spam that is getting people down, but the ease of flying/lack of skill required to perform well with it, against most matchups.

Anything to kill the Fat Turret spam.

Lmao and then what when it's fat turret and tlt spam?

Fat Turrets vs 4x Small turrets.

You do see the irony here, right?

Right?!