The problem with this is that I'm not getting three K-Wings

Just ran this last night:

Dash Rendar (36)
Push the Limit (3)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Kyle Katarn (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Outrider (5)

Jan Ors (25)
Predator (3)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Nien Nunb (1)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Moldy Crow (3)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It felt dirty. The TLT was insanely accurate and great at stripping tokens, shields, etc. The 5 dice HLC was ****ing brutal. Especially since Dash can F + TL fairly easily. TLT is almost like a range 3 ABT against B-wings, Y-wings, or anything with 1 agility. All you need to do is roll 2 hits and they get pegged. Not hard to do with Predator plus a bunch of focus tokens. Was also pretty deadly against 2 agility ships like Zs and Kirahxzxzx's. Jan is so much better with TLT. You can keep her away from enemies, but still be able to contribute offensively. The HWK can GTFO with 4 straight and Boost.

Just ran this last night:

Dash Rendar (36)

Push the Limit (3)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Kyle Katarn (3)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Outrider (5)

Jan Ors (25)

Predator (3)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Nien Nunb (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Moldy Crow (3)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It felt dirty. The TLT was insanely accurate and great at stripping tokens, shields, etc. The 5 dice HLC was ****ing brutal. Especially since Dash can F + TL fairly easily. TLT is almost like a range 3 ABT against B-wings, Y-wings, or anything with 1 agility. All you need to do is roll 2 hits and they get pegged. Not hard to do with Predator plus a bunch of focus tokens. Was also pretty deadly against 2 agility ships like Zs and Kirahxzxzx's. Jan is so much better with TLT. You can keep her away from enemies, but still be able to contribute offensively. The HWK can GTFO with 4 straight and Boost.

Cool story, but wouldnt Jan go down hard against multiple TLT (or alot of other stuff) herself? Thats a 42pt hwk.

Does TLT with the Y Wing Title make Marksmanship viable, using R2D6 on the Y wing to get the EPT slot? If I read the EPT right you get to change results for all attacks in the round. So the Marksmanship action would be the equivalent of 3 focii for offense with the BTL title.

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

:MR. OBVIOUS IRONY BUT YOU NEVER KNOW BECAUSE INTERNET FACE:

Just ran this last night:

Dash Rendar (36)

Push the Limit (3)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Kyle Katarn (3)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Outrider (5)

Jan Ors (25)

Predator (3)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Nien Nunb (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Moldy Crow (3)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It felt dirty. The TLT was insanely accurate and great at stripping tokens, shields, etc. The 5 dice HLC was ****ing brutal. Especially since Dash can F + TL fairly easily. TLT is almost like a range 3 ABT against B-wings, Y-wings, or anything with 1 agility. All you need to do is roll 2 hits and they get pegged. Not hard to do with Predator plus a bunch of focus tokens. Was also pretty deadly against 2 agility ships like Zs and Kirahxzxzx's. Jan is so much better with TLT. You can keep her away from enemies, but still be able to contribute offensively. The HWK can GTFO with 4 straight and Boost.

Cool story, but wouldnt Jan go down hard against multiple TLT (or alot of other stuff) herself? Thats a 42pt hwk.

Jan and Dash will have way better range control and PS than multi-TLT lists. Consequently, they'll be able to nibble the edges of formations, probably killing one ship a turn with only one ship (or no ships) returning fire. A TLT block would have to try and box them in somewhere to get lots of shots on Jan, but then she and Dash can boost into their Range 1 gaps for a safe turn before going out to the edges again. That's how I see it happening anyway.

I think the biggest mistake people will make with these lists on paper is to assume you'll be able to concentrate all guns on one target consistently. With the PS and dial of most of the carriers in massed TLT lists, it's just not going to happen.

Exactly. I slowed rolled along my side of the board stocking up Focuses on Jan. Once I got the opponents stuff in range I spring the trap. Boost to the opposite side all the while harassing them with highly accurate fire. Meanwhile if you are stuck in a formation or even spread out, there is no way you are bringing all your guns to bare on a single ship. Dash is just too **** mobile and even Jan can move fairly quickly with 4 forward w/ boost. She's a lot more durable than you think. Especially if you can keep her at range 3.

I slapped a Kavil with 7 damage in a round of shooting. 2 from the TLT and 5 from the HLC death laser. That's a +30 point ship with 8 hit points nearly dead in one round.

Jan and Dash will have way better range control and PS than multi-TLT lists. Consequently, they'll be able to nibble the edges of formations, probably killing one ship a turn with only one ship (or no ships) returning fire. A TLT block would have to try and box them in somewhere to get lots of shots on Jan, but then she and Dash can boost into their Range 1 gaps for a safe turn before going out to the edges again. That's how I see it happening anyway.

I think the biggest mistake people will make with these lists on paper is to assume you'll be able to concentrate all guns on one target consistently. With the PS and dial of most of the carriers in massed TLT lists, it's just not going to happen.

In general it is not a bad list, but it depends what they are flying against. Higher PS lists can take advantage of the R1 holes or staying out of arc to get thrusters.

The build I have been running, PS8 HLC/FCS BroBots for example, will eat PS7 Dash + PS8 Jan for breakfast. If Jan is out front then Jan will fire twice (at most) and Dash will get the +1 die once, and then it will be 2 BroBots vs Dash. If Jan is in back then on the first turn the bots 2v1 focus fire on Dash and Jan gets no shot. Either way, it won't come close to the firepower and positional ability of Autothrusters + HLC + FCS + Gunner that moves after Jan.

You might run into a similar problem against mobile PS9 lists, or even Kenkirk+Palpatine / Fel.

You can fit a 35 point Soontir in a 100 point list with 3 AC Tempests.

Surely that has a good chance at dealing with a Quad TLT list.

I think it's got a chance, although Soonts only has to get unlucky 3 times and the Tempests don't give you the PS advantage over Gold Y-Wings. He's pretty well set-up for the well-timed dash from outside R3 into the doughnut hole, though and all the time your opponent's concentrating on him the Old Reliable AC Tempests are plugging quietly away. It's a list I really like in general, TBH.

With 2 focus tokens, an evade, Autothrusters, and Stealth Device I can see him lasting a while. What's the mathwing on this?

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

I gave up when I realized I'd need to account for the fact that the defender only spends a token against the first attack if doing so would turn a hit to a miss.

I'm partially there. I can handle a single TLT attack, although not with evade token and stealth device. I can handle multiple attacks on the same target with stealth device focus and evade tokens, but not when the attacks are TLT. Need to update some plumbing in the scripts.

Gaming buddy with a popular blog typically plays a triple Autoceptor list. We played together last night, but he was testing his new shiny, as was I. I ran Bossk with K4, Outlaw Tech, Tactician, VI, Engine Upgrade, and 2 Y-wings with R4 and TLT. He was also running a Bossk list, escorted by a Scyk (with a cannon, probably Mangler?) and a Talonbane with Glitterstim. I gave away Bossk early. He hammered with all 3 of his ships, including a target locked and stimmed R1 from Talonbane. I did get some hits on his Bossk with mine before it was destroyed. My Y-wings then cleaned up all 3 ships plus the Nastah Pup. Twin Laser Turret is a thing.

Anyway, that gets to the point. Like I said above, his competition list is Triple Interceptors. He and I and the fellows a the next table were discussing the effects of TLT against various ships, and we asked him about his Interceptors. He said he wouldn't fear it. He'd just fly through like he would against any other turret, and then he'd have a bigger advantage because it has a doughnut hole. Was confident that he could evade 3 or 4 single attacks from TLT's and then waste a Y-wing a turn. He's actually written a few articles about his experiences playing interceptors and other squads at his blog, www.tabletopgeneral.com.

Other notes: he was also confident that even with the huge front arc and the obligatory Tactician, he would have little issue with teh Hounds Tooth also, and I absolutely believe that. Got in quite a few matches yesterday at our league night, wins and losses. Most matches, including the wins, I give up the Tooth about halfway through and the Y-wings carry it. I attribute this to 2 things: TLT is awesome, and also the Tooth, even with the large arc, is highly disadvantaged once the enemy gets behind you. This was even with PS9 Bossk and Engine Upgrade We need some defensive scummy crew to fill some of those seats on the Tooth!!!!!

Anyway, that gets to the point. Like I said above, his competition list is Triple Interceptors. He and I and the fellows a the next table were discussing the effects of TLT against various ships, and we asked him about his Interceptors. He said he wouldn't fear it. He'd just fly through like he would against any other turret, and then he'd have a bigger advantage because it has a doughnut hole. Was confident that he could evade 3 or 4 single attacks from TLT's and then waste a Y-wing a turn. He's actually written a few articles about his experiences playing interceptors and other squads at his blog, www.tabletopgeneral.com.

Other notes: he was also confident that even with the huge front arc and the obligatory Tactician, he would have little issue with teh Hounds Tooth also, and I absolutely believe that.

That's the key right there -- he knows the list and knows how to fly it. The real test is a good player flying a TLT list vs another good player flying his triple Interceptor list that he is familiar with. For example I know in my case, PS7 Dash + PS8 Jan is not a build that I would fear flying my competition list; on the contrary I would actually want that matchup as I know I should be strongly favored with PS8 IG88s.

I'm not good enough with triple interceptors to get a feel for the squints vs TLT matchup but there are some like your friend that are. They might still get surprised by just how efficient the TLTs can be anyway, and I do have math that shows that the TLTs won't just get steamrolled, but ultimately only time will tell. Kinetic Operator's 3 interceptors managed to beat Matt Shadowlord's 4 TLT Y-wings without losing a ship, but the dice were heavily in his favor. It'll be interesting to see how that matchup plays out at the high levels if you repeat the match ten times.

Jan and Dash will have way better range control and PS than multi-TLT lists. Consequently, they'll be able to nibble the edges of formations, probably killing one ship a turn with only one ship (or no ships) returning fire. A TLT block would have to try and box them in somewhere to get lots of shots on Jan, but then she and Dash can boost into their Range 1 gaps for a safe turn before going out to the edges again. That's how I see it happening anyway.

I think the biggest mistake people will make with these lists on paper is to assume you'll be able to concentrate all guns on one target consistently. With the PS and dial of most of the carriers in massed TLT lists, it's just not going to happen.

In general it is not a bad list, but it depends what they are flying against. Higher PS lists can take advantage of the R1 holes or staying out of arc to get thrusters.

The build I have been running, PS8 HLC/FCS BroBots for example, will eat PS7 Dash + PS8 Jan for breakfast. If Jan is out front then Jan will fire twice (at most) and Dash will get the +1 die once, and then it will be 2 BroBots vs Dash. If Jan is in back then on the first turn the bots 2v1 focus fire on Dash and Jan gets no shot. Either way, it won't come close to the firepower and positional ability of Autothrusters + HLC + FCS + Gunner that moves after Jan.

You might run into a similar problem against mobile PS9 lists, or even Kenkirk+Palpatine / Fel.

Sure, I was responding specifically to how the Dash/Jan list would handle massed TLT lists. I didn't really have anything to say about other lists.

Threw together an anti- TLT list and played it a few times onn vassal.

It's amazing how Carnor Jax, simply by being on the same field, can have an almost enperor-like effect on any friendy ship with a Sensor jammer. The Autothruster Jammie Punishers were a bit light on firepower, but I'm thinking of trading the academy pilot I filled the list out with concussions and extra munitions, to give me a solid hit even on Agi 3 or 4 if I can build up to a TL+focus.

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

Cuh, what a shabby effort. What are we even paying you for?

:MR. OBVIOUS IRONY BUT YOU NEVER KNOW BECAUSE INTERNET FACE:

I don't bother running numbers anymore Bob as I have you but my Gut tells me that BTL TLT swarm should put out about six damage a turn at range 3 against a base 3 evade ship if they can all fire on the same target. That is my gut feeling and maybe drop it by 1 if facing auto thrusters.

If you get them at range two than I would go 7 or 8, I would not be shocked if a turtled up BroBot died in one turn if you let them have a single range 2 pass.

Kris

Well, my Jax's Punishment list is getting a workout vs old meta... just pulled a win off against HLC Dash and ABT Miranda. SJ/AT Punishers are fricking tanks.

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

Cuh, what a shabby effort. What are we even paying you for?

:MR. OBVIOUS IRONY BUT YOU NEVER KNOW BECAUSE INTERNET FACE:

I don't bother running numbers anymore Bob as I have you but my Gut tells me that BTL TLT swarm should put out about six damage a turn at range 3 against a base 3 evade ship if they can all fire on the same target. That is my gut feeling and maybe drop it by 1 if facing auto thrusters.

If you get them at range two than I would go 7 or 8, I would not be shocked if a turtled up BroBot died in one turn if you let them have a single range 2 pass.

Kris

Range 2 or 3 is only different if the defender has autothrusters right? Secondary weapon gives no range bonuses. Played a scum list tonight with Cobra Commander, Black Sun Ace (just bought my Kigfkaha's), a binayre, and Palob with TLT. Went up against 4B's with advanced sensors. Palob was the only ship left standing and he had full hull.

Mass TLT's are probably scary to many lists. A single TLT can also be deadly in a list that also has some offensive threats. Opponent does not want to let Cobra Kai get a range 1 pot shot but if you chase him, Palob is slowly chipping away and making a focus action a bad option. I want to see a mirror match where Palob's be stealing focus tokens from each other!

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

Cuh, what a shabby effort. What are we even paying you for?

:MR. OBVIOUS IRONY BUT YOU NEVER KNOW BECAUSE INTERNET FACE:

I don't bother running numbers anymore Bob as I have you but my Gut tells me that BTL TLT swarm should put out about six damage a turn at range 3 against a base 3 evade ship if they can all fire on the same target. That is my gut feeling and maybe drop it by 1 if facing auto thrusters.

If you get them at range two than I would go 7 or 8, I would not be shocked if a turtled up BroBot died in one turn if you let them have a single range 2 pass.

Kris

Range 2 or 3 is only different if the defender has autothrusters right? Secondary weapon gives no range bonuses. Played a scum list tonight with Cobra Commander, Black Sun Ace (just bought my Kigfkaha's), a binayre, and Palob with TLT. Went up against 4B's with advanced sensors. Palob was the only ship left standing and he had full hull.

Mass TLT's are probably scary to many lists. A single TLT can also be deadly in a list that also has some offensive threats. Opponent does not want to let Cobra Kai get a range 1 pot shot but if you chase him, Palob is slowly chipping away and making a focus action a bad option. I want to see a mirror match where Palob's be stealing focus tokens from each other!

I was talking about Y-Wings with BTL-A4 Title so the range affects the main gun shot as well.

The logic is complicated, but I'll get to it eventually. The exact damage probability resulting from multi-attack TLT damage when the defender has tokens is not yet supported in my scripts.

Cuh, what a shabby effort. What are we even paying you for?

:MR. OBVIOUS IRONY BUT YOU NEVER KNOW BECAUSE INTERNET FACE:

I don't bother running numbers anymore Bob as I have you but my Gut tells me that BTL TLT swarm should put out about six damage a turn at range 3 against a base 3 evade ship if they can all fire on the same target. That is my gut feeling and maybe drop it by 1 if facing auto thrusters.

If you get them at range two than I would go 7 or 8, I would not be shocked if a turtled up BroBot died in one turn if you let them have a single range 2 pass.

Kris

Range 2 or 3 is only different if the defender has autothrusters right? Secondary weapon gives no range bonuses. Played a scum list tonight with Cobra Commander, Black Sun Ace (just bought my Kigfkaha's), a binayre, and Palob with TLT. Went up against 4B's with advanced sensors. Palob was the only ship left standing and he had full hull.

Mass TLT's are probably scary to many lists. A single TLT can also be deadly in a list that also has some offensive threats. Opponent does not want to let Cobra Kai get a range 1 pot shot but if you chase him, Palob is slowly chipping away and making a focus action a bad option. I want to see a mirror match where Palob's be stealing focus tokens from each other!

I was talking about Y-Wings with BTL-A4 Title so the range affects the main gun shot as well.

Gotcha, my mistake. Because of the anti-synergy between main gun and TLT, I am not convinced that BTL-A4 is the way to go, but, someone earlier pointed out the possibility that marksmanship may not be the worst thing in the world on a TLT ship. Now is Horton worth the 35 points needed to become an absolute freaking death machine? Meh. One more thing to mess up your number crunching though.

Played 4 syndicate thugs with TLT and unhinged astromechs tonight and absolutely wrecked a TIE Swarm w/ Howlrunner and a BroBot list. Both of them got crippled in the first exchange. Howlrunner went down hard to just two of the TLTs, and I caught 88B in my front arcs in Round 2 so autothrusters were a no go and he went down to all 4 TLT's. Granted, especially against the BroBots, that was some lucky shooting, but I was pretty amazed at how well they did across from lists i didn't expect them to fair well against.

Having noted how effective they are, I can easily say it was not really all that fun to play. Flying one turret ship in a circle is boring enough. Flying your entire list in a circle is mind numbing. They may be just what was needed to reign in lists like Fat Han, but it seems like they're only creating a new not fun thing to play with/against.

Played 4 syndicate thugs with TLT and unhinged astromechs tonight and absolutely wrecked a TIE Swarm w/ Howlrunner and a BroBot list. Both of them got crippled in the first exchange. Howlrunner went down hard to just two of the TLTs, and I caught 88B in my front arcs in Round 2 so autothrusters were a no go and he went down to all 4 TLT's. Granted, especially against the BroBots, that was some lucky shooting, but I was pretty amazed at how well they did across from lists i didn't expect them to fair well against.

Having noted how effective they are, I can easily say it was not really all that fun to play. Flying one turret ship in a circle is boring enough. Flying your entire list in a circle is mind numbing. They may be just what was needed to reign in lists like Fat Han, but it seems like they're only creating a new not fun thing to play with/against.

As long as fat turretwing players aren't happy then it's all good.

It is a bit of a chore to fly, I agree. Not as much of a chore as 5x Autoblaster Y-Wings though, and still more interesting than fat turret list #586. But yeah, it's a slog list.

I don't think they'll take over as much as Fat Turretwing did/does as it doesn't autowin like certain Fat Turretwing builds and ships like Super Corran do. A wider variety of things can pummel quad TLT's. That is, pretty much anything that can damage 1 agility. You'd probably have a better chance with an XXXX build against a quad TLT list than most 2 ship Fat Turretwing lists, for example. A lot of flying against them has to do with general flying ability and tactics and closing to that doughnut hole than specific counter builds.

Also, how the hell did you beat a swarm lol? Okay, here are your token 1.5 dead TIE Fighters, now I get to volley fire a whole Y-Wing off the board. Explain please, I'm genuinely interested.

Howlrunner and Backstabber went down in the first exchange, and 5 academy pilots after that weren't too difficult to deal with.

Honestly though, I literally just flew around the board edges and threw 6 red dice per Y-Wing each turn until everything was dead.

Uhm... i dont quite get it why range 1 is considered a "safe spot". Especialy when facing K-wings with the fragin Conner net, yeah u slipped real close like BZZZZZZZRTTT....

Uhm... i dont quite get it why range 1 is considered a "safe spot". Especialy when facing K-wings with the fragin Conner net, yeah u slipped real close like BZZZZZZZRTTT....

People are running spam lists with 4 Y-Wings. Not just splashing in a single K-wing.

As long as fat turretwing players aren't happy then it's all good.

It is a bit of a chore to fly, I agree. Not as much of a chore as 5x Autoblaster Y-Wings though, and still more interesting than fat turret list #586. But yeah, it's a slog list.

That is a highly disturbing comment.

Uhm... i dont quite get it why range 1 is considered a "safe spot". Especialy when facing K-wings with the fragin Conner net, yeah u slipped real close like BZZZZZZZRTTT....

I think ScumHwks with Deadmans switch would be the deterrent for range 1 attacks. Especially with arc-dodgers since they are the ones to get in that close and remain out of arc.

Well, my Jax's Punishment list is getting a workout vs old meta... just pulled a win off against HLC Dash and ABT Miranda. SJ/AT Punishers are fricking tanks.

What's that list?

Played 4 syndicate thugs with TLT and unhinged astromechs tonight and absolutely wrecked a TIE Swarm w/ Howlrunner and a BroBot list. Both of them got crippled in the first exchange. Howlrunner went down hard to just two of the TLTs, and I caught 88B in my front arcs in Round 2 so autothrusters were a no go and he went down to all 4 TLT's. Granted, especially against the BroBots, that was some lucky shooting, but I was pretty amazed at how well they did across from lists i didn't expect them to fair well against.

Having noted how effective they are, I can easily say it was not really all that fun to play. Flying one turret ship in a circle is boring enough. Flying your entire list in a circle is mind numbing. They may be just what was needed to reign in lists like Fat Han, but it seems like they're only creating a new not fun thing to play with/against.

So not only did you roll well, but that IG-88B got caught in your firing arc at Range 2? I'm not in the camp where if you don't play arc-dodgers perfectly your results don't count, but it seems to me that if your opponent made a mistake and the dice leaned your way, you have to at least put an asterisk on that win from a playtesting perspective.

As far as the TIE swarm, I think it's going to take some fancy range control to really make TIE swarms work. You really can't afford to engage at Range 3, and what you'd most like to do is use their speed to jump from just outside Range 3 to Range 1 in a single round, with as much of your list as possible.

Looking back at post #2, TIE fighters are relatively cheap hit points, but they rely mostly on green dice, which means they're an okay but not great matchup against TLTs. I think something like five or six generic Headhunters plus an ace (preferably one with Autothrusters) might be more the right speed, since the TLTs are likely to kill two TIE fighters in a turn's worth of attacks, but (probably) only one Z-95.