Does light fate basically trump dark fate?

We played a game last night with 6 players and the topic of dark and light fate became an issue that divided the group and kept swinging backwards and forwards on our interpretation of how it's used.

We read the rules over and over again but it doesn't seem to be explicitly clear.

In the rule book it simply states:

• "Once per die roll, a player may spend one fate token (returning it to the stockpile) to reroll one die that a character has just rolled under the following circumstances:
• 1. A die rolled for a character’s movement.
• 2. A die rolled to determine a character’s attack roll.
• 3. A die rolled due to the instructions on a card or board space.
• A player may only spend light fate to reroll a die that his own character just rolled.
• A player may only spend dark fate to reroll a die that another character just rolled.
• The player who just made a roll has the option to spend light fate to reroll his own die before another player can spend dark fate to force him to reroll his die. If a player rerolls a die because a fate was spent, he must accept the new result.
• Another fate (light or dark) cannot be spent to reroll the same die again. If a player rolls multiple dice (for example, the Dice with Death space in the Inner Region), fate (light or dark) can be spent to only reroll one of them."

Does this mean any given player can only spent fate once per roll or that fate in general fate can be only used once per roll?

We had been playing that each player could influence the roll once each player (ie each player could use once fate per turn). Resulting in hilarious yet long winded turns where the die roll was changed up to 6 times per turn (once for each player).

As funny as it was, we then realised on looking at the rules that each roll could only be influenced once.

The problem arose when players had chosen not to reroll a die and then passed on their turn, someone would force them to reroll the result of the turn they just finished.

This lead to each turn having to be "declared over" before moving on and us being unsure as to when you could spend dark fate and if you could spend light fate after someone declared they where going spend dark and trump them.

I thought it was far more fun the other way when everyone could use one fate once per roll.

What do you guys think?

Our group made the same mistake out the gate. We like how it works as written more.

Problems arise with "Use as much as you want." Once the reaper comes around.

Now to answer the original question: Yes Light Fate is better than Dark in most cases.

As a rule though you should try to hold onto one Dark Fate for a plethora of reasons.

Darkbound cards and effects are one, Screwing with opponents is another.

In practice it's not so easy. Most players at out table hold onto one Light Fate for the Reaper or similar nasty card effect should it come into play. Lost of strongcharacters are only Fate 1 and it's not hat easy to increase your Fate cap being another reason.

As I've been saying for a long time though, unless you have a sure-fire or near sure-fire way to get to the end of The Woodlands section of the table, stay out of it

The problem arose when players had chosen not to reroll a die and then passed on their turn, someone would force them to reroll the result of the turn they just finished.

This lead to each turn having to be "declared over" before moving on and us being unsure as to when you could spend dark fate and if you could spend light fate after someone declared they where going spend dark and trump them.

I thought it was far more fun the other way when everyone could use one fate once per roll.

What do you guys think?

There's no need to make it so strict and complicated. Like Spell casting sequence, fate use is sequential in Talisman. Light fate doesn't "trump" dark fate, the rulebook says that a character should always be allowed to spend a light fate on a roll, before any dark fate is spent on that roll instead.

In practical terms, we found it straightforward to just ask the intended target "do you want to spend light fate on your roll?" before using dark fate. This isn't spoiling anything, since fate is open information and each character is aware that the others may spend dark fate against him. If he wants to use a light fate to reroll his own die he's entitled to do that, but usually he will let you spend your dark fate instead of wasting a light fate for the same effect.

There are some cases when spending a light fate might be better than letting the others use dark fate (e.g. you have Orb of Destiny, Twist of Fate, or something alike). That rule is only there to set some kind of precedence and disallow the use of dark fate as an interruption. Of course, if a character has no light fate or no fate at all, the others can freely spend a dark fate on each of his rolls without asking for permission.

I'm currently in a 5 player game played over lunch breaks with co-workers, all new to Talisman. Boy do they love the fate mechanic, and they are all good sports so I'm enjoying the back-stabbery with dark fate

Glad this topic is here because I realized we goofed a bit. One player has the cursed Flail from the Harbinger deck and I thought you could fate each die so she could avoid doubles...oops.

Here's an interesting follow on though. We've had both the Lottery and Drunken Revelry cards come up. So as per the rules you can fate your roll, but what about the tie re-rolls? Do those count as separate rolls for the purposes of fate?

I believe fate can still be spent on a die that was re-rolled due to another game effect. I think it is not that each die can only be "re-rolled once," but more that fate can only be spent once per roll. I think fate simply grants a re-roll to a die that cannot normally be re-rolled further.

If four players are rolling dice in clockwise order to determine who gets the lowest, fate can be spent on each roll before the loser is determined. If there is a tie, fate can once again be spent on the rolls of the tiebreakers even if they spent fate on the first set of rolls. At least that's my understanding.

Yes, a die roll can only be fated once. And if a roll has more than 1 die, only 1 of those dice can be re-rolled (at least that's how we understand it).

There's nothing preventing you to use other re-rolling effects after spending fate, or preventing you to spend fate after a re-roll of some other type.

A very old example: the Sage from the Reaper expansion gets a free re-roll for movement, but if he's not satisfied with the re-roll he still has the option to pay a fate and re-roll once more. He just cannot spend more than 1 fate per die roll.

Unfortunately I don't agree with Artaterxes with the interpretation of tie re-rolls. When resolving Lottery or Drunken Revelry, the tie re-roll is actually a re-roll. If you spent fate on the first attempt and the fate re-roll caused the tie, you just re-roll the tie. A character can pay a fate for the tie re-roll if he hasn't spent any fate on the roll.

However, this is the classic borderline situation where the rules don't give safe solutions.

There's nothing preventing you to use other re-rolling effects after spending fate, or preventing you to spend fate after a re-roll of some other type.

A very old example: the Sage from the Reaper expansion gets a free re-roll for movement, but if he's not satisfied with the re-roll he still has the option to pay a fate and re-roll once more. He just cannot spend more than 1 fate per die roll.

Unfortunately I don't agree with Artaterxes with the interpretation of tie re-rolls. When resolving Lottery or Drunken Revelry, the tie re-roll is actually a re-roll. If you spent fate on the first attempt and the fate re-roll caused the tie, you just re-roll the tie. A character can pay a fate for the tie re-roll if he hasn't spent any fate on the roll.

However, this is the classic borderline situation where the rules don't give safe solutions.

I agree with Warlock. A "re-roll" (not exactly the best choice of words, IMO) is a roll just like any other. Take the case of the Drunken Revelry, and 2 (or more) players roll a 1. They each have the opportunity to pay light fight and roll again. If none chooses to, they make another roll to break the tie. This tie-breaking roll is subject to fate-spending, as with any roll that has not had a fate already used to change it. Where it gets a little hairier is when someone spent a fate to reroll his intial roll of 1, and got a 1 again, thereby initiating the tie-breaking roll. I, personally, would play that this tie-breaking roll would again be subject to fate-spending, either dark or light.

I agree that a FAQ is necessary to address whether a fate re-roll can be applied to a die that has been re-rolled by another game effect.

I play such that you can, and Warlock's example of the Sage being able to roll, re-roll, then fate-re-roll is a classic example.