I would like some input on a discussion one of my regular opponents and I have about which defensive mod is better on an AFII. I prefer ECM while he likes Advanced Projectors

ECM does nothing against black dice but can unlock any token, perhaps allowing a critical brace or evade. I have stopped a lot of chip damage from random "acc + double hit" potshots that would have worn me down otherwise.

Projectors work on black dice but a single accuracy result renders it useless. Projectors are also one point cheaper and almost always force your opponent to deplete all hull zones of their shields.

Which mod, if any, would you take on an AFII?

ECM every time on an AFII. Advanced Projectors is a great upgrade evenly distributing shield damage across the whole ship is shockingly enough a great way to help keep a ship alive but as you say its just way too easy for it to be shut down by accuracy. I'm really looking forwards to trying Advanced Projectors on ships with multiple redirects like the ISD or MC-30 as they are less vulnerable in that regard. ECM just works beautifully with the AFII where you have only one of each token type and you need those tokens to stay alive. It also infuriates opponents by undermining a cornerstone of the attack/defence mechanics of this game which can make it worthwhile in and of itself.

What Ion Dave said, AP is hampered on the AF as she can only ever bring one redirect to the table. There are too many ways to cancel it (intel officer, acc..) and no ways to somehow counter the canceling. Wait for the mon cal ships as it can be expected that they bring a second redirect, along with general heavy shielding. And should the empire ever decide to bring defensive retrofits to their SDs.. oh boy!

On the flip side Intel officer and overload pulse undermine ecm. And I can't tell you how many times I have seen ecms NEVER get used in a game even though they were equipped and I can tell you unless they get an accuracy literally every time they shoot at you, you going to be able to use Advanced Projectors

It really comes down to what he expects to be facing and personal preference

What Ion Dave said, AP is hampered on the AF as she can only ever bring one redirect to the table. There are too many ways to cancel it (intel officer, acc..) and no ways to somehow counter the canceling. Wait for the mon cal ships as it can be expected that they bring a second redirect, along with general heavy shielding. And should the empire ever decide to bring defensive retrofits to their SDs.. oh boy!

It's been confirmed in the promo pictures that the ISD has defensive retrofit.

The answer is Advanced Projectors and it's not close.

We're talking about assault frigates, first of all, and part of the assault frigate / advanced projectors combination's power lies in the ability of the AF to kite at long range. In other words, outside of blue range where those consistent accuracies hang out.

ECM depends on your opponent doing something they're not close to guaranteed doing. AP's first condition - your ship getting shot at - happens every turn. Whether or not your opponent could potentially roll an accuracy or have an Intel officer is of no immediate consequence, since they simply might occur. When accuracies do occur, they probably won't happen every time. The thought process should be, "I'm guaranteed to be able to use this every turn unless my opponent does something" and not "I can use this upgrade if my opponent first does something."

Advanced Projectors are better, because I dictate how they're used, rather than my opponent determining when I might or might not use ECM.

The answer is Advanced Projectors and it's not close.

We're talking about assault frigates, first of all, and part of the assault frigate / advanced projectors combination's power lies in the ability of the AF to kite at long range. In other words, outside of blue range where those consistent accuracies hang out.

ECM depends on your opponent doing something they're not close to guaranteed doing. AP's first condition - your ship getting shot at - happens every turn. Whether or not your opponent could potentially roll an accuracy or have an Intel officer is of no immediate consequence, since they simply might occur. When accuracies do occur, they probably won't happen every time. The thought process should be, "I'm guaranteed to be able to use this every turn unless my opponent does something" and not "I can use this upgrade if my opponent first does something."

Advanced Projectors are better, because I dictate how they're used, rather than my opponent determining when I might or might not use ECM.

This is fine except when your opponent has Xi7 turbolasers, then Advanced Projectors are pretty useless.

No. Check the latest errata/faq. XI7 and AP interact whew the XI7 only allows you to put 1 damage on each other hull zone. I guess if redirecting 3 damage is considered useless then that won't change your opinion.

The answer is Advanced Projectors and it's not close.

We're talking about assault frigates, first of all, and part of the assault frigate / advanced projectors combination's power lies in the ability of the AF to kite at long range. In other words, outside of blue range where those consistent accuracies hang out.

Based on this bit of thinking I might have to dust off my Projectors. I started off using them on the AF2, but wasn't kiting with it particularly well. Back when I was getting it into a lot more trouble the ECMs made sense, but by using it a bit less carelessly it's probably time to rethink them.

No. Check the latest errata/faq. XI7 and AP interact whew the XI7 only allows you to put 1 damage on each other hull zone. I guess if redirecting 3 damage is considered useless then that won't change your opinion.

Yup, all the XI7 will do is force you to absorb 3 hits across all hull zones. which is still a great result on the AFII.

No. Check the latest errata/faq. XI7 and AP interact whew the XI7 only allows you to put 1 damage on each other hull zone. I guess if redirecting 3 damage is considered useless then that won't change your opinion.

No need to be a ****** about it, I didnt realize they addressed that in the FAQ.

I apologize if my tone came across as harsh or rude. I could easily see someone arguing that only being able to redirect three damage is not fantastic on a ship with that many shields to burn. Particularly if damage is in the 6+ range, only redirecting three is certainly not amazing compared to guaranteeing a brace with ACM for example.

I apologize if my tone came across as harsh or rude. I could easily see someone arguing that only being able to redirect three damage is not fantastic on a ship with that many shields to burn. Particularly if damage is in the 6+ range, only redirecting three is certainly not amazing compared to guaranteeing a brace with ACM for example.

No worries, I guess my tone could have come across combative also. I apologize if it did and I do appreciate the clarification on the ruling.

I've come to prefer the Advanced Projectors as well. Against the Victory, it's fairly easy to stay out of medium range, where most of your accuracy results will happen thanks to blue dice. This means that you really don't have to worry all that much about accuracy. The real threats are those damned Gladiators. They're hard to get away from and they pack one hell of a punch. However, because the bulk of their damage comes from black dice (has anyone ever actually seen a Gladiator II used?), their access to accuracy results is limited. If they get in range, not only are the projectors better, but they're critical to your survival.

The answer is Advanced Projectors and it's not close.

We're talking about assault frigates, first of all, and part of the assault frigate / advanced projectors combination's power lies in the ability of the AF to kite at long range. In other words, outside of blue range where those consistent accuracies hang out.

ECM depends on your opponent doing something they're not close to guaranteed doing. AP's first condition - your ship getting shot at - happens every turn. Whether or not your opponent could potentially roll an accuracy or have an Intel officer is of no immediate consequence, since they simply might occur. When accuracies do occur, they probably won't happen every time. The thought process should be, "I'm guaranteed to be able to use this every turn unless my opponent does something" and not "I can use this upgrade if my opponent first does something."

Advanced Projectors are better, because I dictate how they're used, rather than my opponent determining when I might or might not use ECM.

Interesting thought, though you still base all arguments for AP on a single condition - being able to kite at long range. Thats all fine, but not all fish layouts are intended that way.

AP is also easily countered, and depending on a single def token which you might lose or spend during the game which renders AP useless. ECM is virtually not countered ever.

Anyway, I see your point and would say there are situations for each upgrade to shine.

Part of me is really interested in seeing wether we'll get ships with double-upgrade slots... Being able to combine the two of those together would be rather interesting...

The answer is Advanced Projectors and it's not close.

We're talking about assault frigates, first of all, and part of the assault frigate / advanced projectors combination's power lies in the ability of the AF to kite at long range. In other words, outside of blue range where those consistent accuracies hang out.

ECM depends on your opponent doing something they're not close to guaranteed doing. AP's first condition - your ship getting shot at - happens every turn. Whether or not your opponent could potentially roll an accuracy or have an Intel officer is of no immediate consequence, since they simply might occur. When accuracies do occur, they probably won't happen every time. The thought process should be, "I'm guaranteed to be able to use this every turn unless my opponent does something" and not "I can use this upgrade if my opponent first does something."

Advanced Projectors are better, because I dictate how they're used, rather than my opponent determining when I might or might not use ECM.

Interesting thought, though you still base all arguments for AP on a single condition - being able to kite at long range. Thats all fine, but not all fish layouts are intended that way.

AP is also easily countered, and depending on a single def token which you might lose or spend during the game which renders AP useless. ECM is virtually not countered ever.

Anyway, I see your point and would say there are situations for each upgrade to shine.

If I may give another example, I think it's also a matter preference. If you want a bonus to use most of the time, it's more efficient, it's a better use for points. You're paying less per use. If you want something to protect you in a crunch from potentially catastrophic damage, that's tougher to argue from a statistical standpoint but it's important. For example, in Warmachine your defensive stats are DEF (defense) and ARM (armor). It's common to have buffs to give out to your troops to either DEF or ARM (occasionally both). If you want something that might save your butt, buff DEF. They might miss altogether. (DEF is rolled to hit before damage, ARM is subtracted from everything attack). However, if you want perhaps a more economic use of your buffs, you could buff ARM, which will be used every time a model takes damage. Of course, if the strength of the attack is too high ARM won't matter. By the same token, when rolling to hit if you roll too high, DEF doesn't even matter. In summary, some people might prefer ARM, which whether or not it works, will be "used" every hit. While others may prefer DEF which is less reliable, it does have a shot at getting you out of trouble entirely. Hope that made sense and wasn't condescending. Just some thoughts.

I consider Advanced Projectors to be a must include with AF2, in the same way Assault Concussion Missiles are a must include for Glads.

It seems like the Projectors is the wide favorite. I will consider trying them for a few games. I will also keep track of how much damage ECM allowed me to avoid and, most importantly, how much shielding is left when an ECM AF dies.

I use Advanced Projectors. Mikael can attest to the fact that when a whale does die it is after ALL shields are gone. Very rarely does a whale die otherwise. That means I have time to build shields up over the corse of a game as it takes damage.

For what its worth, when using VSDs (two redirects), I always wish I had ECM, as the brace is my only token that actually reduces damage taken. On an AF, being able to evade and brace at once basically negates accuracies and intel officer when kiting at long range.

On the other hand, when kiting the AF usually only has this massive side arc facing the enemy, so on standard redirect you simply can't make use of your 3 x far side shields, as happened last night, when I FINALLY brought down an assault frigate, it still had 3 x shields on the left but nothing anywhere else.

My vote is for AP as well. Most accuracy's are spent negating the brace imo, and when you have AP equipped, people are more likely to go after the redirect. Also i have a LOT of X-17/Intel Officer combos in my local meta, and AP makes the attacker's life much harder in choosing which token to choose. And as others have said before, AP means ALL your shields are gone by the time your ship goes down. The value of AP countering X-17 post FAQ also makes it more attractive, as X-17 is pretty much a redirect counter.

The answer is Advanced Projectors and it's not close.

We're talking about assault frigates, first of all, and part of the assault frigate / advanced projectors combination's power lies in the ability of the AF to kite at long range. In other words, outside of blue range where those consistent accuracies hang out.

ECM depends on your opponent doing something they're not close to guaranteed doing. AP's first condition - your ship getting shot at - happens every turn. Whether or not your opponent could potentially roll an accuracy or have an Intel officer is of no immediate consequence, since they simply might occur. When accuracies do occur, they probably won't happen every time. The thought process should be, "I'm guaranteed to be able to use this every turn unless my opponent does something" and not "I can use this upgrade if my opponent first does something."

Advanced Projectors are better, because I dictate how they're used, rather than my opponent determining when I might or might not use ECM.

Interesting thought, though you still base all arguments for AP on a single condition - being able to kite at long range. Thats all fine, but not all fish layouts are intended that way.

AP is also easily countered, and depending on a single def token which you might lose or spend during the game which renders AP useless. ECM is virtually not countered ever.

Anyway, I see your point and would say there are situations for each upgrade to shine.

ECM is useful once per turn, so while not a direct counter, a higher quantity of accurate focus fire from an opponent will render ECM less effective compared to the always on nature of AP.

In addition to that, typically if I am trying to kite at range I will use Mon Mothma. Even at medium, if they are spending an accuracy to stop my super-redirect they aren't stopping MM evade or brace.

ECM is also next to useless in comparison to AP against a list such as the winning Gencon list, or the winning Aus Nationals list, neither of which include blue dice or a way to consistently get accuracy results on red (Sensor team, H9s etc).

Another thing to point out is that due to AP letting you force your opponent to expend ALL your shields, its actually easier to repair up, as you can get 2-3 shields with an engineering command + token vs 1-2 damage discarded. Of course that means nothing when you're getting attacked from multiple angles, but if you've managed to kite, it can be quite useful.

In my experience, which one is better depends on where you want to fly the AF. If keeping at long range, I feel Advanced Projectors work better because of a fewer chances to get hit by multiple accuracies.

At Closer range, due to a higher chance of getting hit by multiple accuracies per shot, I've had great mileage with ECM. Evade tokens become less useful and the opponent will target either the other two which you might want to absolutely have. And in the front arc of a Victory, getting hit with 2 accuracies is common place, so ECM ensures at least one of the tokens is usable.