I don't think the problem lies with cards like predator and push the limit being to good but other cards being overpriced. Those cards are great and outshines alot of other but I think it's because the design team overprice some cards that compete for the same slot.

Outmanouver does less than predator and needs a special condition and should therefor cost less.

Recon specialist and Lando cost the same but one is always reliable and Lando must roll perfect almost every time to justify the same cost. if lando cost 2 he would se play, now you can play with him for fun but there are better choices in tournament play.

If ffg was able to change these cards I'm sure they would but since the cards are already printed and sold they let them be. There are so many elite talents that was design at very diffirent times in the game. The more cards the release the more cards will be trash or stuck to "only this one pilot". Sadly we will be stuck with many cards that with lost potentional since it's a physical game so they can't patch cards you can do in a video game.

The reason why you see PTL, Predator, and VI as the most used, is because the other EPTs are either overcosted, very niche, or just plain bad.

Opportunist, Outmaneuver, Daredevil, and Marksmanship are all overcosted by a point. They just can't compete with Predator or PTL in the +3 point EPT range.

Expose and Elusiveness just suck.

Deadeye, Squad Leader, Stay on Target, etc, are just too niche to see a lot of use.

There just isn't a whole lot of EPTs that are as useful in a lot of situations as the big 3. Lone Wolf is almost there, but you really need to have the right squad to get it to work effectively. Crack Shot and Lightning Reflexes will be interesting, but I don't think they'll be used a ton. The 1 shot EPTs are very situational. I don't think FFG will go back and change any EPT to make it worthwhile. We just got to hope that newer EPTs will be useful.

Exactly what I was going to post.

The problem is two fold. PTL, VI, and predator are probably slightly under costed (not so much VI as the other 2), but, there are LOTS of things in this game that are slightly under costed (insert majorjuggler math).

But an even bigger issue then what is under costed, as Jo Jo points out, is that nearly all of the EPTs outside of "the big 3" are OVER costed.

This has inspired me to make a thread reviewing the point costs of each EPT and why some never see use. I was going to post it here, but it was getting too lengthy, so decided I might as well make a thread of its own.

My thoughts on this:

PTL is probably a properly costed card due solely to the stress received. On Soontir Fel + AT, Jake + AT, and maybe Corran+R2D2, PTL reaches its peak power, letting ships turtle up to improve damage mitigation to a very reliable %. These ships can easily end a game with full HP even when being shot at for multiple rounds. Of course, the boost + barrel roll aspect is another part of it. However, because of the stress received from using PTL, this card cannot be played well by all ships, and can be shut down by stress mechanics, not to mention making ships slightly more predictable and block able.

PTL I think is an acceptable and properly costed card. (Autothrusters on the other hand might be a bit too cheap). If PTL was 1 pt more expensive, though, I still think it would be good. (Or if most other EPTs were 1 pt cheaper).

Predator though, I do think this card is undercosted. I also think that Predator + Gunner (and similar effects) are the reason that 2 ship lists can survive and even thrive. Based off memory, almost every consistently winning Regional/National Turret list has Predator, and usually paired with Gunner. The ability to always Reroll at least 1 red dice, irregardless of actions or stress, is just really good. It makes Gunner perform REALLY well. Reroll + Focus is really powerful, and Predator gives incredibly easy, no negative affect access to it.

My suggestions:

1 Increase the cost of Predator by 1-2 pts. It will still see play, but lists that use it might have to sacrifice other upgrades that are also important.

Or

2. Make it "Once Per Round". It will still be great, but will reduce its power when combined with Gunner, where it really shines.

Or

3. Give it a negative effect, such as stress, or maybe flip all crits in this attack to hits or something.

On that note, I love both PTL and Predator. They really open up how the game is played and what ships can win consistently. It is just hard to build good lists WITHOUT these cards, and I think that is creating a negative experience when list building.

I just think Predator is a little too good for its 3 pt cost, and it should be fixed.

Yeah, PTL isn't remotely broken

I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that PTL is broken (and by that I mean undercosted on the ships that use it).

I am not pretty sure everyone would agree that.

PTL gives you a significant benefit in return for a significant drawback. It's a good card. It's not remotely "broken" even on Soontir, the tippy-top best-of-the-best PTL-carrier. You can turn it off with stress or with blocking, and even if you don't a PTL ship being (basically) restricted to its green moves the following turn is a pretty big deal, even on the Interceptor or A-Wing.

Then why have I never seen a non-PTL Fel? Something that is to the point of an auto include is in my mind broken. Fel may as well have a pilot ability of "You may perform a second action. If you do so, take a stress. When assigned a stress, receive a focus token." And not have an EPT slot.

You've never seen a non-PTL Fel because there are no other cards which still allow him to take an action while also receiving a stress. Stay On Target gives him a stress, triggering his ability, but then he only has the one token and cannot take an action. He also cannot use it on turns when he starts out stressed. Daredevil also gives him a stress, but uses his action. It's less that the card is powerful, and more that FFG hasn't really explored the "self-inflicted stress" design space enough to give him more valid options.

Certain cards work better on certain ships, but that doesn't make them broken. PTL works great on Soontir, but you'd have to be crazy to put it on a Black Squadon Pilot or Kavil. VI is only situationally useful on Green Squadrons. Predator is usually overkill against low-agility targets. Determination is disgustingly strong on Decimators, but not that great on a TIE. And so on.

Certain cards work better on certain ships, but that doesn't make them broken. PTL works great on Soontir, but you'd have to be crazy to put it on a Black Squadon Pilot or Kavil.

PTL, Blaster Turret, and Unhinged Astromech on Kavil doesn't seem that crazy. With Unhinged Astromech he's got as much green on his dial as Soontir does. It seems like Kavil is probably less likely to get blocked using the longer 3 maneuvers than Agromech Kavil would be using the his slower dial.

A couple people have already mentioned this. It's not that Predator and PTL are overpowered, the alternatives are just too expensive. If a bunch of the 2 and 3 point EPTs got dropped down to 0 and 1 point they'd be much more common.

Outmaneuver loses to Predator every time at the same price. Make Outmaneuver a one point EPT and it would be all over the place. Wingman, Decoy, and Bodyguard are hard choices at 2 points. Drop them to one (or even zero) and they'd be finding their way into lots of lists, people would be trading up their cheap generics to ships with EPTs more frequently if there was something worthwhile to do with that EPT slot without spending yet more points.

literally no one thinks PTL is broken

Just because the floor is garbage doesn't mean the celling is brokenly good.

Predator, for instance, is great! But it's not so good that it makes either the X-Wing or the Defender into competitive ships. Those ships are both [email protected] points over costed, and Predator was designed for them. But Predator doesn't seem to be adding enough extra efficiency to those ships. Ergo.

On the other wrist, not even Experimental Interface is enough to make Marksmanship a good buy.

The real test too see if something is undercosted is seeing how high players would pay to keep using it.

I heard that there was an xwing tournament somewhere that had a rule that r2-d2 was 8 points...and still most people with corran builds took him.

Now THAT shows a card that is undercosted.

I like some of the non point increase fix ideas for predator. I'll give one other idea...you can only reroll blanks. That would nerf turrets a bit since they often are boosting or evading. So if they roll an attack with only hits and focus they are out of luck for rerolls.

So it sounds like the overwhelming thought here is that even if predator/PTL were to become more expensive or whatnot, there still isn't anything worth taking. And I can see that.

I would love to see some lists start substituting Predator for Outmaneuver, or PTL for Opportunist or something. But it sounds like the consensus is if the big 3 didn't exist, you'd be unlikely to see many EPTs equipped in general. Frankly, I'd be okay with that. It would make those 1 point 1 time use EPTs appear... You'd have the decision between having a 1pt init bid, or equipping LR, AR, or Crack shot... And then you'd end up with lists in all 4 arrangements.

If the 3 pointers left competitive play you wouldn't see ANY eots. You'd only see generic pilots

I would love to see some lists start substituting Predator for Outmaneuver, or PTL for Opportunist or something.

Be the first. Stop playing the same PTL Corran/Tycho lists.

I would love to see some lists start substituting Predator for Outmaneuver, or PTL for Opportunist or something.

Be the first. Stop playing the same PTL Corran/Tycho lists.

I will admit, I'm guilty of using the same EPTs, VI on Corran and PTL on Tycho (along with DD). And for the past month, I haven't flown a single pilot with an EPT slot (go go K and Y wings!). But that's all I seem to play against.

I would love to see some lists start substituting Predator for Outmaneuver, or PTL for Opportunist or something.

Be the first. Stop playing the same PTL Corran/Tycho lists.

I will admit, I'm guilty of using the same EPTs, VI on Corran and PTL on Tycho (along with DD). And for the past month, I haven't flown a single pilot with an EPT slot (go go K and Y wings!). But that's all I seem to play against.

Part of this, too, is the groupthink I see a lot in this game. Opportunist is a strong upgrade; Lone Wolf is actually stronger than Predator, although a bit finicky; Calculation has a lot of applications and no downside; Decoy and Swarm Tactics are still strong choices; etc. People don't run them because that's not where the metagame is, but the metagame is a feedback loop.

I don't think Predator is a problem. Effectively, it's a version of PTL that doesn't charge you a stress token but does (1) insist that one of your actions has to be target lock, and (2) isn't actually quite as good as target lock. A lesser and more restricted effect at a lower activation cost is probably pretty appropriate.

How does predator insist that one of your actions has to be a target lock?

As someone who has tried Opportunist A-wings with marginal success...there is a reason Opportunist never caught on.

First, you need ways to guarantee the opponent doesn't have tokens so that means spending points on Wes (or similar). As soon as that one **** dies the rest of the list really starts to suffer.

Opportunist is also expensive at 4 points and does leave you stressed at the end of it all.

Outmaneuver though is a card people should look more at, especially one something like brobots.

I don't think Predator is a problem. Effectively, it's a version of PTL that doesn't charge you a stress token but does (1) insist that one of your actions has to be target lock, and (2) isn't actually quite as good as target lock. A lesser and more restricted effect at a lower activation cost is probably pretty appropriate.

How does predator insist that one of your actions has to be a target lock?

It doesn't. But it lets you take your regular action and also gives you a reroll on your attack dice, so it's like a version of PTL that lets you take your regular action and a (partial) target lock.

Yeah opportunist is tricky you have to use it on lower PS pilots and let yourself get shot.

Elite pilots have abilities that are typically costed at 1-2 points. If you look at them individually they are pretty powerful.

The real issue is that EPT cost does not scale with ship value. PTL is a serious points sink on a Green Squadron pilot but a shoe-in on Han. Also, the more abilities the ship has (and dice) the better the payoff for the PTL investment. The more green (or better still, a turret) the lower the downside of PTL. Throw in R2D2 and you're reaping double benefits from the greens. And so it goes.

Whilst PTL is a joke on X-Wings, EI and R2-F3 is worth considering. On the gripping hand, Expert Handling is what makes vanilla R2s worth considering too.

But in the end, PTL is only worth what its meta will bear. In a stress-control meta that PTL is at best a dubious upgrade and at worst a glowing NES boss weak point.

I would love to see some lists start substituting Predator for Outmaneuver, or PTL for Opportunist or something.

Be the first. Stop playing the same PTL Corran/Tycho lists.

I will admit, I'm guilty of using the same EPTs, VI on Corran and PTL on Tycho (along with DD). And for the past month, I haven't flown a single pilot with an EPT slot (go go K and Y wings!). But that's all I seem to play against.

Part of this, too, is the groupthink I see a lot in this game. Opportunist is a strong upgrade; Lone Wolf is actually stronger than Predator, although a bit finicky; Calculation has a lot of applications and no downside; Decoy and Swarm Tactics are still strong choices; etc. People don't run them because that's not where the metagame is, but the metagame is a feedback loop.

I like Lone Wolf but I only think it is better than Predator if you have focus tokens to spend and can meet the range requirement. Lone Wolf illustrates why Predator gets taken so much. It works consistently. As long as you have someone to shoot, you benefit from having Predator.

Elite pilots have abilities that are typically costed at 1-2 points. If you look at them individually they are pretty powerful.

The real issue is that EPT cost does not scale with ship value. PTL is a serious points sink on a Green Squadron pilot but a shoe-in on Han. Also, the more abilities the ship has (and dice) the better the payoff for the PTL investment. The more green (or better still, a turret) the lower the downside of PTL. Throw in R2D2 and you're reaping double benefits from the greens. And so it goes.

Whilst PTL is a joke on X-Wings, EI and R2-F3 is worth considering. On the gripping hand, Expert Handling is what makes vanilla R2s worth considering too.

But in the end, PTL is only worth what its meta will bear. In a stress-control meta that PTL is at best a dubious upgrade and at worst a glowing NES boss weak point.

I rather run R5-K6 than R2-F2. That's how bad R2-F2 is. It is never worth considering.

Elite pilots have abilities that are typically costed at 1-2 points. If you look at them individually they are pretty powerful.

The real issue is that EPT cost does not scale with ship value. PTL is a serious points sink on a Green Squadron pilot but a shoe-in on Han. Also, the more abilities the ship has (and dice) the better the payoff for the PTL investment. The more green (or better still, a turret) the lower the downside of PTL. Throw in R2D2 and you're reaping double benefits from the greens. And so it goes.

Whilst PTL is a joke on X-Wings, EI and R2-F3 is worth considering. On the gripping hand, Expert Handling is what makes vanilla R2s worth considering too.

But in the end, PTL is only worth what its meta will bear. In a stress-control meta that PTL is at best a dubious upgrade and at worst a glowing NES boss weak point.

I rather run R5-K6 than R2-F2. That's how bad R2-F2 is. It is never worth considering.

If only LW was "when rolling dice" instead of "when attacking/defending." That would make all of those "on roll" cards better, and possibly worth taking at that point.

R5-K6 would be great on a TLT Vader hog... if you're really lucky with those green dice you could reap quite the TL harvest.

Angerland, on 20 Aug 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

I think one element is folks building competitive lists. In these instances when you are min maxing certain ept cards are always going to out shine others. If his want to compete you have to use them.

Your option then is to play for fun. Play the scenarios or make up your own. Or design thematic lists and give them a fly with friends, a 12 pack of beer and some snacks. Trash talk a little and laugh a lot.

We have a great x-wing club here in the Twin Cities, and the vast majority of them are tournament players. Many of them play several games weekly and seem to usually run their tourney lists for practice. Even on our open play nights the casual lists seem to be out numbered by competitive.

I'm not trying to dog on any ones play style, just noting my personal observations. You bought your ships, play with them how ever you like but you can't be upset that in competitive play cerain upgrades far out play others.

Ya this game gets boring quick if you play the same net decked tournament ships EVERY game.

Id rather have fun flying different lists every game than become world champion of the worlds most boring game.

Playing in a tournament this afternoon. I'm bringing 6 Binayre Pirates, 4 feedback arrays and 5 cluster missiles. It should be fun, good against quit a few lists but not good against others. But fun is the optimal word for me.

literally no one thinks PTL is broken

Clearly that's not the case. E.g., the OP.