I was perusing the thread regarding adding a EPT slot to a named pilot that didn't have one, wondering if any pilot abilities would merge with EPTs to break them. Quite a few of the examples were Predator/PTL. Which brings me to my point - is Predator itself broken? I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that PTL is broken (and by that I mean undercosted on the ships that use it). When your only options for an EPT on Corran are VI or PTL, when we have dozens out there to choose from, they aren't balanced correctly. Same thing - when Fel (or any A wing / Interceptor) is fielded automatically with PTL, the card is clearly too good for its cost on that ship.

And when predator came out in W4, I was very excited to have a viable alternative to PTL, but let's be honest, Predator has become the main card used wherever PTL isn't used. It takes a 2.25 <boom> attack and boosts it up to 2.68 <boom> normally, and 2.80 <boom> against those who brave running generics. Meanwhile, the F+TL option is only 2.81 <boom>. So, for .13 <boom> the pilot no longer has stress, and doesn't care about bumping.

And then there's VI, which seems like a necessary card to me. It provides you the option of raising your PS and the opportunity cost of taking Pred/PTL. Sadly, my work blocks List Juggler, otherwise I would pull the data from there, but I'm pretty confident that these 3 EPTs will be by FAR the most commonly used EPTs.

So, my question I pose to you - What would it take in order for the meta to not be dominated by these EPTs? Would a single point increase on each do it? Would they have to be 5 points? Or would they continue to be prevalent even then. 5 points would already make them the most expensive EPT out there, so I don't think it's be right to make them more expensive than that.

In which case, would they have to be removed from the game? Or perhaps restricted to small base ships only? That doesn't seem to actually have an impact on PTL besides making Dash not as viable. And while it would affect Predator more (Han and Chiry basically), it doesn't affect the root cause of the problem.

Heck, as I'm dabbling in W7 stuff, one of the things that I keep coming across is an Advanced w/ ATC + Predator. It's a ridiculous combination that I just don't see going away. You have an 84% of 3 <booms>, with at least 1 being a <kaboom> if you have a focus token. It drops to 50% of 3 if you don't have a focus, with 38% of being just 2.

The omnipresence of predator truly discourages the use of PS1-2 pilots - the double reroll is really obnoxious. But the high quantity of low quality ships is supposed to be the rock to the sissor of high costed PS ships. They already have the arc dodge advantage of moving afterwards, and the one advantage of moving first - blocking, is greatly mitigated by predator, so the lower PS ships are no longer at an advantage.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if those 3 EPTs were removed from the game - what do you see changing? And what lists would you like to try out?

NO ONE used VI until wave 4. It might as well not have existed. Then the Phantom screwed that up for everyone, and VI has become one of the most important EPTs you can take

If they could retroactively add "inside your firing arc" to Predator it would be pretty good for the game overall. But it's not crazy.

An easy way to balance would be to release a 1-3 point version with a slightly different effect that only works in arc.

If they could retroactively add "inside your firing arc" to Predator it would be pretty good for the game overall. But it's not crazy.

An easy way to balance would be to release a 1-3 point version with a slightly different effect that only works in arc.

I disagree though. Now you've just added a cheaper version of Predator to all of the TIE advances and TalonBane Cobras of the world. You haven't increased EPT diversity, you've just added a better version of an already broken card.

I was perusing the thread regarding adding a EPT slot to a named pilot that didn't have one, wondering if any pilot abilities would merge with EPTs to break them. Quite a few of the examples were Predator/PTL. Which brings me to my point - is Predator itself broken? I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that PTL is broken (and by that I mean undercosted on the ships that use it). When your only options for an EPT on Corran are VI or PTL, when we have dozens out there to choose from, they aren't balanced correctly. Same thing - when Fel (or any A wing / Interceptor) is fielded automatically with PTL, the card is clearly too good for its cost on that ship.

And when predator came out in W4, I was very excited to have a viable alternative to PTL, but let's be honest, Predator has become the main card used wherever PTL isn't used. It takes a 2.25 <boom> attack and boosts it up to 2.68 <boom> normally, and 2.80 <boom> against those who brave running generics. Meanwhile, the F+TL option is only 2.81 <boom>. So, for .13 <boom> the pilot no longer has stress, and doesn't care about bumping.

And then there's VI, which seems like a necessary card to me. It provides you the option of raising your PS and the opportunity cost of taking Pred/PTL. Sadly, my work blocks List Juggler, otherwise I would pull the data from there, but I'm pretty confident that these 3 EPTs will be by FAR the most commonly used EPTs.

So, my question I pose to you - What would it take in order for the meta to not be dominated by these EPTs? Would a single point increase on each do it? Would they have to be 5 points? Or would they continue to be prevalent even then. 5 points would already make them the most expensive EPT out there, so I don't think it's be right to make them more expensive than that.

In which case, would they have to be removed from the game? Or perhaps restricted to small base ships only? That doesn't seem to actually have an impact on PTL besides making Dash not as viable. And while it would affect Predator more (Han and Chiry basically), it doesn't affect the root cause of the problem.

Heck, as I'm dabbling in W7 stuff, one of the things that I keep coming across is an Advanced w/ ATC + Predator. It's a ridiculous combination that I just don't see going away. You have an 84% of 3 <booms>, with at least 1 being a <kaboom> if you have a focus token. It drops to 50% of 3 if you don't have a focus, with 38% of being just 2.

The omnipresence of predator truly discourages the use of PS1-2 pilots - the double reroll is really obnoxious. But the high quantity of low quality ships is supposed to be the rock to the sissor of high costed PS ships. They already have the arc dodge advantage of moving afterwards, and the one advantage of moving first - blocking, is greatly mitigated by predator, so the lower PS ships are no longer at an advantage.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if those 3 EPTs were removed from the game - what do you see changing? And what lists would you like to try out?

No predator isn't broken... At all... 3% of your squad cost to reroll 1 attack-only dice is not broken in any way, shape, or form... 3% of your squad cost and 1 stress to take a 2nd action per turn is also not broken... I'd actually say that's balanced fairly well considering how many different ways there are for people to deal stress out there... You get yourself double or triple stressed in one turn because you used PTL and good luck with that over the next 2-3 turns...

Predator does discourage people from using PS 1-2 builds, but Thug Lyfe, BBBBZ, and Bug Zapper, and even the 7 TIE swarms that were popping up in top 16 and top 8 in regionals globally would like to have a talk with you about that...

If those 3 EPTs were removed from the game, I just see more menstruating happening about other cards people don't like and then wanting them removed from the game...

If they could retroactively add "inside your firing arc" to Predator it would be pretty good for the game overall. But it's not crazy.

An easy way to balance would be to release a 1-3 point version with a slightly different effect that only works in arc.

I disagree though. Now you've just added a cheaper version of Predator to all of the TIE advances and TalonBane Cobras of the world. You haven't increased EPT diversity, you've just added a better version of an already broken card.

I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that PTL is broken (and by that I mean undercosted on the ships that use it).

PTL gives you a significant benefit in return for a significant drawback. It's a good card. It's not remotely "broken" even on Soontir, the tippy-top best-of-the-best PTL-carrier. You can turn it off with stress or with blocking, and even if you don't a PTL ship being (basically) restricted to its green moves the following turn is a pretty big deal, even on the Interceptor or A-Wing.

NO ONE used VI until wave 4. It might as well not have existed. Then the Phantom screwed that up for everyone, and VI has become one of the most important EPTs you can take

True true. While the Phantom jump started it, I can still see it happening around that time anyways. If we take a freeze frame at the available ships during W3, and those that could take an EPT specifically:

Luke

Wedge

Chewy

Lando - not really flown

Han

Tycho - not flown, but wants PTL anyways

Ibby - not flown, but wants to stress anyways

Ten - not flown

Kyle - not flown

Jan - not flown

Mithel - VI was actually used on him

Howl - Normally ST

Steele - not flown

Vader - not flown

Turr - VI (or PTL) was actually used on him

Fel - PTL only

Kath

Boba - not flown

Jonus

Rhymer - not flown

So, there are two PS7 pilots that actually used VI to put themselves at PS9, when those pilots were flown. But with the A wing and Interceptor not really ever being used, arc dodgers didn't really exist, which is the primary reason for wanting VI - deny the arc dodge. Plus, this was prior to predator, so the YT-1300 isn't boosting around as much, so he's not really an arc dodger either.

Chewy, Han, and Jonus dont' really benefit much from VI (even today). And the remaining ships; Luke, Wedge, and Kath didn't have any specific EPT that was consistently paired with them. Heck, running them without was a viable option in order to save some points.

Nope.

PTL makes ships predictable in that they'll usually want to clear stress every turn and if you know the dials that's a big help.

Predator is one dice against most builds it's worth it's points but it's far from broken.

If they could retroactively add "inside your firing arc" to Predator it would be pretty good for the game overall. But it's not crazy.

Quoted for truth

Why predator didn't already come with arc restrictions when it was released with outmaneuver is beyond me. but that's more a PWT problem and has nothing to do with the ept itself

As to the OP no ept "does too much." There are some good epts, and then there is a lot of garbage.

Marksmanship isn't bad because predator exists, for example

The only epts that get shouldered out by the 3 point wonders are the 1/point 1 use ones (ala crackshot) and that's mostly because of the investment required

If you're paying points for an ept slot, why stop at crackshot for a halfassed investment?

If we had cheaper (black squadron) and more ept slots (green squadron with title, for example) we'd see more diversity

Then again wave 8 is apparently releasing 0 point epts, so that'll be fun

Yeah, PTL isn't remotely broken

I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that PTL is broken (and by that I mean undercosted on the ships that use it).

I am not pretty sure everyone would agree that.

PTL gives you a significant benefit in return for a significant drawback. It's a good card. It's not remotely "broken" even on Soontir, the tippy-top best-of-the-best PTL-carrier. You can turn it off with stress or with blocking, and even if you don't a PTL ship being (basically) restricted to its green moves the following turn is a pretty big deal, even on the Interceptor or A-Wing.

Then why have I never seen a non-PTL Fel? Something that is to the point of an auto include is in my mind broken. Fel may as well have a pilot ability of "You may perform a second action. If you do so, take a stress. When assigned a stress, receive a focus token." And not have an EPT slot.

The point of the EPT is to provide variety to the ship/pilot. When there is no variety because everyone is using the same cards, then the game is not working as intended. Therefore, the card is broken. It may not be broken from a balance point of view, but from the list building aspect it is.

I would not list Push the Limit or predator as even remotely broken. The reason they are used more than others is because their effect is obvious, reliable, and much less situational than most other EPTs.

This is an issue throughout the entire game: pilot abilities, crew, modifications, everything. Cards that provide useful benefits round after round are seen infinitely more than the more situational cards.

X-wing has a huge number of cards that are just too situational to see much use.

Auto include ptl on fel has NOTHING to do with ptl; everything to do with fel

You want to know why, just look at the 35 point tie fighter's profile. Also never trust green dice, always trust evades , and finally notice the synergy between ptl and fel (also the rhyme)

Compare to thurr, who is more than happy with vi (or any ept; try LW or pred)

Yeah, PTL isn't remotely broken

I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that PTL is broken (and by that I mean undercosted on the ships that use it).

I am not pretty sure everyone would agree that.

PTL gives you a significant benefit in return for a significant drawback. It's a good card. It's not remotely "broken" even on Soontir, the tippy-top best-of-the-best PTL-carrier. You can turn it off with stress or with blocking, and even if you don't a PTL ship being (basically) restricted to its green moves the following turn is a pretty big deal, even on the Interceptor or A-Wing.

Then why have I never seen a non-PTL Fel? Something that is to the point of an auto include is in my mind broken. Fel may as well have a pilot ability of "You may perform a second action. If you do so, take a stress. When assigned a stress, receive a focus token." And not have an EPT slot.

The point of the EPT is to provide variety to the ship/pilot. When there is no variety because everyone is using the same cards, then the game is not working as intended. Therefore, the card is broken. It may not be broken from a balance point of view, but from the list building aspect it is.

So you're "that guy"...

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if those 3 EPTs were removed from the game - what do you see changing? And what lists would you like to try out?

The only thing that would change is that the "top EPT" people would be complaining about would change.

A lot of EPTs have niche uses, and that is okay. Not everything should be as useful as Predator/Push the Limit. And you never know when a pilot will come out that makes you break out an old EPT again. See Daredevil and Tycho, and Expose and Decimator. And I still love Expert Handling on X-wings.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if those 3 EPTs were removed from the game - what do you see changing? And what lists would you like to try out?

The only thing that would change is that the "top EPT" people would be complaining about would change.

A lot of EPTs have niche uses, and that is okay. Not everything should be as useful as Predator/Push the Limit. And you never know when a pilot will come out that makes you break out an old EPT again. See Daredevil and Tycho, and Expose and Decimator. And I still love Expert Handling on X-wings.

With ATC, Expert Handling on high pilot skill ships is going to be a thing some people use... Just wait for it...

If they could retroactively add "inside your firing arc" to Predator it would be pretty good for the game overall. But it's not crazy.

An easy way to balance would be to release a 1-3 point version with a slightly different effect that only works in arc.

I disagree though. Now you've just added a cheaper version of Predator to all of the TIE advances and TalonBane Cobras of the world. You haven't increased EPT diversity, you've just added a better version of an already broken card.

Talonbane with free Predator wouldn't dominate the meta. A 2-point slightly-altered mechanic certainly wouldn't be unwelcome.

The reason why you see PTL, Predator, and VI as the most used, is because the other EPTs are either overcosted, very niche, or just plain bad.

Opportunist, Outmaneuver, Daredevil, and Marksmanship are all overcosted by a point. They just can't compete with Predator or PTL in the +3 point EPT range.

Expose and Elusiveness just suck.

Deadeye, Squad Leader, Stay on Target, etc, are just too niche to see a lot of use.

There just isn't a whole lot of EPTs that are as useful in a lot of situations as the big 3. Lone Wolf is almost there, but you really need to have the right squad to get it to work effectively. Crack Shot and Lightning Reflexes will be interesting, but I don't think they'll be used a ton. The 1 shot EPTs are very situational. I don't think FFG will go back and change any EPT to make it worthwhile. We just got to hope that newer EPTs will be useful.

VI, PTL, and Predator are all very different issues.

VI is a symptom of an underlying problem with the pilot-skill mechanic. The metagame defines a distribution of pilot-skill. The current distribution includes a lot of PS1-2 ships, a few PS3 ships, very few PS4-7 ships, a few PS8, and lots of PS9-10.

Accordingly, jumping from PS2 to PS4 gets you ahead of a big group of ships, jumping from PS6 to PS8 does almost nothing, and jumping from PS8 to PS10 gets you ahead of almost everything. But Veteran Instincts ignores that distribution entirely, and charges a flat (and cheap) cost regardless of where in the distribution a ship falls.

I'm honestly not sure what could be done about it, either, without revamping the entire pilot-skill system.

***

PTL is, arguably, a card that should not have been introduced. I think early in the game's design, most people didn't understand how critically important the action economy was (I think the design of Expose stems from the same place, actually, as does R5-D8). And accordingly, I don't think the designers really got how critical it is for some ships to break the action economy open.

So I think you can make either a case that it's underpriced--if it were 4 points instead of 3, would Fel or Corran or Super Dash even blink at the change--or that it's inappropriate for the game at all.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure it's actually a balance problem at this point so much as an axis of game balance. It largely defines the landscape of costs and effects for EPTs, and to some extent it does the same for other slots as well. It's also something I'm sure new ships are designed around. Removing it, or even changing its price, would upset a lot of applecarts because we've all adapted to it.

***

And conditioning my understanding of balance on the fact that PTL already exists and costs 3 points, I don't think Predator is a problem. Effectively, it's a version of PTL that doesn't charge you a stress token but does (1) insist that one of your actions has to be target lock, and (2) isn't actually quite as good as target lock. A lesser and more restricted effect at a lower activation cost is probably pretty appropriate.

I think one element is folks building competitive lists. In these instances when you are min maxing certain ept cards are always going to out shine others. If his want to compete you have to use them.

Your option then is to play for fun. Play the scenarios or make up your own. Or design thematic lists and give them a fly with friends, a 12 pack of beer and some snacks. Trash talk a little and laugh a lot.

We have a great x-wing club here in the Twin Cities, and the vast majority of them are tournament players. Many of them play several games weekly and seem to usually run their tourney lists for practice. Even on our open play nights the casual lists seem to be out numbered by competitive.

I'm not trying to dog on any ones play style, just noting my personal observations. You bought your ships, play with them how ever you like but you can't be upset that in competitive play cerain upgrades far out play others.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if those 3 EPTs were removed from the game - what do you see changing? And what lists would you like to try out?

The only thing that would change is that the "top EPT" people would be complaining about would change.

A lot of EPTs have niche uses, and that is okay. Not everything should be as useful as Predator/Push the Limit. And you never know when a pilot will come out that makes you break out an old EPT again. See Daredevil and Tycho, and Expose and Decimator. And I still love Expert Handling on X-wings.

With ATC, Expert Handling on high pilot skill ships is going to be a thing some people use... Just wait for it...

It doesn't even need to be a high PS pilot. Making the ATC pilot use his action for ATC every round instead of doing something else with it is a pretty big hit to their efficiency.

also remember, you don't have to use epts to be competitive

you can just run generics and they'll compete just fine

(as for the whole PS discrepancies, the only way to overcome that is to go Armada on it--i.e do away with it entirely. The only other way you're seeing mid-range PS pilots is if they have awesome abilities)

also remember, you don't have to use epts to be competitive

you can just run generics and they'll compete just fine

(as for the whole PS discrepancies, the only way to overcome that is to go Armada on it--i.e do away with it entirely. The only other way you're seeing mid-range PS pilots is if they have awesome abilities)

or they have an EPT to take VI

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if those 3 EPTs were removed from the game - what do you see changing? And what lists would you like to try out?

The only thing that would change is that the "top EPT" people would be complaining about would change.

A lot of EPTs have niche uses, and that is okay. Not everything should be as useful as Predator/Push the Limit. And you never know when a pilot will come out that makes you break out an old EPT again. See Daredevil and Tycho, and Expose and Decimator. And I still love Expert Handling on X-wings.

With ATC, Expert Handling on high pilot skill ships is going to be a thing some people use... Just wait for it...

It doesn't even need to be a high PS pilot. Making the ATC pilot use his action for ATC every round instead of doing something else with it is a pretty big hit to their efficiency.

Yeah, that's definitely true... My thought was (A) only higher pilot skills have EPT slots, and (B) use Expert Handling after and ATC ship has moved and TLed, and you've denied that ability completely for that turn, instead of just forcing the action again and again to use it...

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but if those 3 EPTs were removed from the game - what do you see changing? And what lists would you like to try out?

The only thing that would change is that the "top EPT" people would be complaining about would change.

A lot of EPTs have niche uses, and that is okay. Not everything should be as useful as Predator/Push the Limit. And you never know when a pilot will come out that makes you break out an old EPT again. See Daredevil and Tycho, and Expose and Decimator. And I still love Expert Handling on X-wings.

With ATC, Expert Handling on high pilot skill ships is going to be a thing some people use... Just wait for it...

It doesn't even need to be a high PS pilot. Making the ATC pilot use his action for ATC every round instead of doing something else with it is a pretty big hit to their efficiency.

Yeah, that's definitely true... My thought was (A) only higher pilot skills have EPT slots, and (B) use Expert Handling after and ATC ship has moved and TLed, and you've denied that ability completely for that turn, instead of just forcing the action again and again to use it...

Still situational. What if Barrel rolling isn't the best option? What if I don't have Barrel roll on my action bar, therefore I stress myself? What if I need an action to cancel a crit, or grab a TL?

... ****, better just take Predator.