Bear with me here…

What if FFG were to release generic pilots with native abilities, for example:

X-Wing Azure Squadron
When executing a 3-bank maneuver, you may instead perform a 3 s-loop then receive a stress token.

… you get the idea

Now if that happened, what if there was a new rule/mechanic that went thus:

Squadron Leader
If two or more ships of the same squadron type are fielded, then a unique pilot flying the same ship type may be assigned as their squadron leader. That pilot gains the unique ability of the squadron ships in addition to any pilot ability he/she may already have.

It would make for some nice synergy and maybe encourage more of a mix of generic/low and unique/high pilots in the game.

Of course, this would require FFG to make generic pilot cards with pilot abilities…

So if you field two pilots of the same shiptype, one of them gets the IG-2000 title?

You want the game to break into 20 or 20.000 pieces?

Because, as written, you can field Vader with the ability of Juno and Maarek?

So if you field two pilots of the same shiptype, one of them gets the IG-2000 title?

You want the game to break into 20 or 20.000 pieces?

Because, as written, you can field Vader with the ability of Juno and Maarek?

He said same squadron type. I think what he means is that you'd have the two generics with abilities, and then the unique would gain that too.

So if you field two pilots of the same shiptype, one of them gets the IG-2000 title?

You want the game to break into 20 or 20.000 pieces?

Because, as written, you can field Vader with the ability of Juno and Maarek?

No, you would inherit the pilot ability of the Squadron (i.e. non-unique generic)

For example if the "Storm Squadron" TIE Advanced cards had a card ability and you fielded two with Darth Vader, then you could nominate them as their "Squadron Leader" and he would gain their ability.

Currently, none of the "Squadron" cards have abilities... currently...

EDIT: Ninja'd(!)

Meh, it's quite easily a gamebreaker. You'd have to take into account the different pointlevels for instance.

Meh, it's quite easily a gamebreaker. You'd have to take into account the different pointlevels for instance.

I'm not sure point levels would come into it ... it'd be more like "if we release a squadron for ship n, would any of the unique pilots of ship type n, be OP if they were made a squadron leader"

I guess I'm going on an assumption that if you had a special ability on a generic squadron ship, it would not be as powerful as the type of ability you would find on one of the better unique pilots.

Take the example I gave ... If you had two or more PS 4 X-Wings that had the ability to do a stressful s-loop and you paired them with Wedge, or Biggs, or Luke who would then gain that ability also... would you consider it OP?

Would the trade off of fielding a squad of "interesting" generics with a "buffed" leader break the game?

If the generics ability was really powerful... (think Soontir, Darth or Wedge), then yes of course. But if it was milder...

For example:

- When performing a barrel roll, use the one bank template

- You may perform a RED S-Loop instead of a 3 Bank

Meh, it's quite easily a gamebreaker. You'd have to take into account the different pointlevels for instance.

I'm not sure point levels would come into it ... it'd be more like "if we release a squadron for ship n, would any of the unique pilots of ship type n, be OP if they were made a squadron leader"

I guess I'm going on an assumption that if you had a special ability on a generic squadron ship, it would not be as powerful as the type of ability you would find on one of the better unique pilots.

Take the example I gave ... If you had two or more PS 4 X-Wings that had the ability to do a stressful s-loop and you paired them with Wedge, or Biggs, or Luke who would then gain that ability also... would you consider it OP?

Would the trade off of fielding a squad of "interesting" generics with a "buffed" leader break the game?

If the generics ability was really powerful... (think Soontir, Darth or Wedge), then yes of course. But if it was milder...

For example:

- When performing a barrel roll, use the one bank template

- You may perform a RED S-Loop instead of a 3 Bank

Performing an SLoop I would consider highly powerful. Heck one of the advantages of the Tie fighter over the X wing is the choice of a 3K or a 4K. Having 2 choices often makes it much easier to flip around... but now you want to give the X wing 3 choices, with different facings. That seems like a Soontir Fel in an X wing type ability. Not a generic ability that can be shared. Just imagine, Wedge w/ Predator and 3S. He gets behind you from his newly found Sloop, and then gets to reroll dice, while reducing your agility.

The 1 Bank barrel roll is also a highly powerful ability. One of the reasons that Boost + Barrel Roll is such a good combo is that you can get out of arc while maintaining your own arc. All of that changes with the 1 bank BR. Now Fel and 1 bank BR, ptl to TL, and get a focus to line up a R1 F+TL shot while still being out of arc of return fire.

With all of that said, I can see it working for mild abilities. Such as if the Red squadron had the 3 straight was green instead of white. Makes the X wings a bit faster coming out of a K wing. Doesn't change much, but at least allows them to keep up with an E wing. Or the rookies could change a 2 bank to a 2 turn. This wouldn't be that useful being that they move at PS2, but it would give you an incentive to run rookies instead of blues if your ace was Wedge, as it IS useful for Wedge.

I understand wha your saying and think its great. Firstly wha it's doing is giving regular joe pilots a little talent or skill that their squadron has specialize in.

Would multipul unique pilots be able to join into the squadron or just one per? Or maybe one per 3 ships?

I think, that tribal (in Sci-Fi terms: squadron) mechanics are more often lazy design than not. I'm glad, that FFG so far made limited use of this (Brobots), because they usually don't add a lot of depth to the game.

While technically a card "field 3 X-wing to gain some kind of bonus" increases the amount of options, it gives you exactly one option: play 3 X-Wings. That's it. You want to play less than three? Can't use the card. Want to fly a Y-Wing swarm? Can't use the card. Want to fly two X-Wings and 2 Z95, because their dials matche nicely? Can't use the card. And so on...

Meanwhile, look at cards like Squadleader, Swarm Tactics, Howlrunner and Serissu. They all encourage you to build squadrons, without being limited to them. Heck, building squadrons is innately rewarding, because it leads to a more focused strategy. Just look at Tie Swarms, BBBBZ or stress attack lists.

Edit: Basically, your mechanic would be great to satisfy our thirst for roleplay, e.g. "I want to play THE Rogue Squadron", "I want to play THE Black Squadron", etc. This is fine and would be a cool addition indeed! This alone might be worth adding squadrons. But from a game design perspective, there are a lot better options.

Take a look at the new Threat Tracers that come with the Inquisitor's TIE. They encourage you to play a TIE Bomber or Z95 missile squadron without even having those names printed onto them. /Edit

Performing an SLoop I would consider highly powerful. Heck one of the advantages of the Tie fighter over the X wing is the choice of a 3K or a 4K. Having 2 choices often makes it much easier to flip around... but now you want to give the X wing 3 choices, with different facings. That seems like a Soontir Fel in an X wing type ability. Not a generic ability that can be shared. Just imagine, Wedge w/ Predator and 3S. He gets behind you from his newly found Sloop, and then gets to reroll dice, while reducing your agility.

The 1 Bank barrel roll is also a highly powerful ability. One of the reasons that Boost + Barrel Roll is such a good combo is that you can get out of arc while maintaining your own arc. All of that changes with the 1 bank BR. Now Fel and 1 bank BR, ptl to TL, and get a focus to line up a R1 F+TL shot while still being out of arc of return fire.

I couldn’t agree more … I was trying to hint at a specific something in my examples that we’re not allowed to talk about <cough> <cough>

I am also assuming that this is something that FFG would implement on new cards. Examples like the barrel roll would be pretty powerful if a normal barrel roll was not otherwise available to the ship in question.

So, in the case of the barrel roll example, it would be for a ship like the TIE that already has the ability … maybe adding a stress and making the move optional would be the way to go (if it was a normal TIE).

With all of that said, I can see it working for mild abilities. Such as if the Red squadron had the 3 straight was green instead of white. Makes the X wings a bit faster coming out of a K wing. Doesn't change much, but at least allows them to keep up with an E wing. Or the rookies could change a 2 bank to a 2 turn. This wouldn't be that useful being that they move at PS2, but it would give you an incentive to run rookies instead of blues if your ace was Wedge, as it IS useful for Wedge.

^^ Sooo much this!

Although (say if this was somehow retro-actively applied through a “squad” upgrade card), Rookie pilots wouldn’t get a look-in (they’re not a squadron).

We’re more likely to see abilities on generic squadron cards going forward than having them added in retrospect. <cough> <cough>

Although having them added optionally in retrospect (e.g. a “Gold Squadron” Y-Wing, “Red Squadron” X-Wing squadron upgrade card would be neat).

I understand wha your saying and think its great. Firstly wha it's doing is giving regular joe pilots a little talent or skill that their squadron has specialize in.

Would multipule unique pilots be able to join into the squadron or just one per? Or maybe one per 3 ships?

I’d say it would be one per … while the 100 point limit would naturally tend to limit it to one, epic would be another story. Also, the one per with Epic may encourage multiple squadrons.

I think, that tribal (in Sci-Fi terms: squadron) mechanics are more often lazy design than not. I'm glad, that FFG so far made limited use of this (Brobots), because they usually don't add a lot of depth to the game.

While technically a card "field 3 X-wing to gain some kind of bonus" increases the amount of options, it gives you exactly one option: play 3 X-Wings. That's it. You want to play less than three? Can't use the card. Want to fly a Y-Wing swarm? Can't use the card. Want to fly two X-Wings and 2 Z95, because their dials matche nicely? Can't use the card. And so on...

Exactly. But this is what you would be getting as the trade-off for balance.

Meanwhile, look at cards like Squadleader, Swarm Tactics, Howlrunner and Serissu. They all encourage you to build squadrons, without being limited to them. Heck, building squadrons is innately rewarding, because it leads to a more focused strategy. Just look at Tie Swarms, BBBBZ or stress attack lists.

Edit: Basically, your mechanic would be great to satisfy our thirst for roleplay, e.g. "I want to play THE Rogue Squadron", "I want to play THE Black Squadron", etc. This is fine and would be a cool addition indeed! This alone might be worth adding squadrons. But from a game design perspective, there are a lot better options.

Take a look at the new Threat Tracers that come with the Inquisitor's TIE. They encourage you to play a TIE Bomber or Z95 missile squadron without even having those names printed onto them. /Edit

Exactly - it adds to the mix without taking away from it. You can go full “A-Team” squadron with a diverse mix of abilities (even among same ship types) or go for a specific squadron famed for their ability to perform a unique maneuver.

Kinda like the idea. Could implement this way in order to avoid OP. Make Squadron Commander a card (squad leader already an EPT so cornfusing) Card could say, "Discard this card to use a non-unique pilot's skill"

Clunky wording but you get the idea. Would need to be on a card and you could cause it to be one-time to limit power.

My idea for squadrons is that you would add them to multiple ships in your squad, and they would enable one member of the squadron to sacrifice something in order to boost another member of the same squadron.

As examples:

- Action: Another member of <X> Squadron may perform an action.

- You may use a target lock belong to another member of <Y> Squadron as if it was your own.

- You may sacrifice your attack in order to add +1 red die to the next attack of a member of <Z> Squadron this turn. In order to gain the bonus die, that ship must fire on a target that you could have attacked.

Exactly. But this is what you would be getting as the trade-off for balance.

Exactly - it adds to the mix without taking away from it. You can go full “A-Team” squadron with a diverse mix of abilities (even among same ship types) or go for a specific squadron famed for their ability to perform a unique maneuver.

I'm not talking about balance at all. You're suggestion might be completely balanced and it's absolutely possible to make it balanced, but it still doesn't add any depth to the game. I'm talking about designing cards that allow for creative use, instead of having one single limited purpose.

What's the fun in designing a squad, if a single upgrade card removes most of your decisions and shoehorns you into playing amount X of ship Y? There's less room for creativity or choice compared to upgrade cards, that work on mutliple lists.

If you want an X-Wing with a "unique maneuver", why not instead suggest designing a ship that is able to perform this maneuver? Now you can build your squad and still perform this "unique maneuver", but at the same time combine it with a lot of different ships in a multitude of lists.

I guess, that there's still a lot of enjoyment to be found in playing and executing such a "unique maneuver", so feel free to disagree with me here. But in my opinion, FFG should not implement such contrived squadron mechanics, when they're showing us over and over again, that they can create more elgant squad synergies.

One concept of Warhammer 40k that had potential was the way squadron point costs were set up. Basically if you took three of the same unit type you could get something as a free upgrade. For x-wing perhaps a single free upgrade may be added to that squadron of three, for instance:

________BBBBZ - 100 points_____________________

1 x Bandit Squadron Pilot = 12 points

1 x Blue Squadron pilot = 22 points

3x Blue Squadron Pilots* = 66 points

*[squadron Upgrade - 1x Advanced Sensor - Free]

or

________Tie Swarm - 100 points_____________________

2x Academy Pilots = 24 points

Mauler Mithel* + Predator = 20 points

*[squadron Upgrade - Stealth Device - Free]

2x Academy Pilots = 24 Points

Howlrunner** + Swarm Tactics = 20 points

*[squadron Upgrade - Stealth Device - Free]

1x Academy Pilot = 12 points

Exactly. But this is what you would be getting as the trade-off for balance.

Exactly - it adds to the mix without taking away from it. You can go full “A-Team” squadron with a diverse mix of abilities (even among same ship types) or go for a specific squadron famed for their ability to perform a unique maneuver.

I'm not talking about balance at all. You're suggestion might be completely balanced and it's absolutely possible to make it balanced, but it still doesn't add any depth to the game. I'm talking about designing cards that allow for creative use, instead of having one single limited purpose.

What's the fun in designing a squad, if a single upgrade card removes most of your decisions and shoehorns you into playing amount X of ship Y? There's less room for creativity or choice compared to upgrade cards, that work on mutliple lists.

If you want an X-Wing with a "unique maneuver", why not instead suggest designing a ship that is able to perform this maneuver? Now you can build your squad and still perform this "unique maneuver", but at the same time combine it with a lot of different ships in a multitude of lists.

I guess, that there's still a lot of enjoyment to be found in playing and executing such a "unique maneuver", so feel free to disagree with me here. But in my opinion, FFG should not implement such contrived squadron mechanics, when they're showing us over and over again, that they can create more elgant squad synergies.

Ok - I think you've misconstrued what I was originally saying, but then I was intentionally being a bit obtuse to avoid the thread being locked or removed.

To be clear I am assuming the ability is already on the card this is not something we have seen yet. All generics in the game (and this includes "squadrons" such as red, blue, onyx, obsidian, etc) do not have special card abilities - some of them have an additional EPT slot, but that's it.

What I'm postulating is that if FFG were to release a generic ship with a squadron moniker that had a unique card ability, wouldn't it be interesting if there was a "Squad Leader" mechanic that allowed you to pair a unique pilot of the same type with two or more of these ships and in doing so pass the ability on to said leader.

So if FFG were to release a new ship - let's say the 'C-Wing' and the PS4 generic was "Purple Squadron", and in addition to all of the normal upgrade slots, the PS4 Purple Squadron had the pilot ability to say, use a 2 bank or straight for boost (all C-Wings have boost).

If you fielded two (or more) of these, as well as another unique C-Wing pilot - that pilot could be nominated as "squad leader" for purple squadron and be able to use the same ability that the purple squadron ships have.

So again, to be clear - if, in the future, FFG were ever to introduce generic pilots for ships with a special pilot ability <cough> <cough> ... I'm suggesting that a "squad leader" rule might be an interesting little option that could be added.