XP reward per session and availability of starting ships/gear are something that's within the GM's discretion anyway.

"No one in the films that I can think of takes a hit and feels it less (ie: has the damage reduced in potency, which is what Soak does) because they are strong. "

Brawn is not just physical strength, but overall health and constitution. Furthermore, a character hit is not "feeling it less" but better able to push their way through the pain.

Cunning is a measure of mental alacrity or how fast a character can think on their feet. The "quick thinking" you mention that characters take to avoid damage is actually those characters spending an action to use the "take cover" maneuver or using a defensive talent.

Furthermore there are only 2 skills (I think) that use Brawn as a basis, Brawl and Resilience. While a much larger more commonly used skills use Cunning as basis (Deception, Perception, Skulduggery, Streetwise, and Survival) as a base so pairing the ability to soak with 5 skills will lead to that stat being too valuable to use. Your "Face" characters (Politico, Charmer, Traders, Ambassadors, and similar) already typically pump that stat to at least a 3 if not a 4 simply to have a YYGG in Deception and other skills and now you will make them as resilient as a melee heavy for no real reason.

Finally, the only time we see the "Face" characters in the films (Amadala and Leia and 3P0) take hits they go down with one shot. Leia gets stunned with one hit in ANH, in ROJ she takes a single hit from a stormtrooper and goes down. 3P0 is constantly being destroyed or "knocked out" by minimal damage (The sand people attack or when he wanders off on Bespin).

Brawn is used for four skills (Athletics, Brawl, Melee, and Resilience). Athletics can be very useful in (foot) chase scenes and Resilience is somewhat important if you have to rely much on natural healing, or if your group gets subjected to deprivation (of food/water/sleep). Brawl and Melee are obviously combat skills, but nothing beats a good blaster at your side (except a lightsaber in the right hands).

Note that Lightsaber is a fifth Brawn skill, but it may or may not be important (or even available) in your game.

To those who say that it's imbalanced to take away the relevance of Brawn compared to other Characteristics, I would point out that Brawn seems to have more of an effect on derived attributes than any other Characteristic.

So I'll happily hear a game balance reason for why I shouldn't allow Cunning--or maybe Willpower--to add to Soak. Otherwise that's the one I'm gonna have to hang on to, despite the furor.

Thanks again for the feedback, FFG forum folks.

Brawn is only important for a melee focused character. You can make a really tough fighter by stacking that, but if you are making a character who does literally anything else Brawn is your dump stat. Because let's be honest, encumbrance isn't particularly limiting and you're probably not making many Athletics or Resilience checks. The major value to a non-melee character (so probably most characters) is Soak.

Why you shouldn't allow Cunning - Because now my Twi'lek smuggler has no reason to even consider another characteristic, I am beefing my Cunning to 5. Not only will I be amazing at Deception, but I will also somehow be nigh untouchable in combat because I'm shrugging off small arms fire.

Why you shouldn't allow Willpower - Because it's already a hugely impactful characteristic due to governing Force Powers.

Overall, by changing the characteristic that Soak is derived from, you are allowing characters to hinge almost entirely on their main characteristic. It makes for hyper focused character creation because there is no downside to min/maxing. Hell, you're giving your PCs a massive incentive to min/max. A well rounded character will be setting himself up to be subpar.

I read your house rules but I didn't read the responses so forgive me if I repeat something someone has already said.

I get the idea of house rules,

I do even though I'm not a

supporter of house rules.

Here is why;

1-If you (or any other player) aren't familiar with the system, I don't think creating/changing rules is going to help you learn it correctly.

2-Ask yourself why you are making the rule. Is it because of a problem a players has mentioned or created? Is it so you don't have to worry bout certain aspects of the game (like encumbrance)? Is it because you like to make things harder for you to keep with as a GM?

3-The few people I've played with who have made a lot of house rules really wanted to play their own game. I mean their own game system that they haven't come up with but would like to take an existing game and modify it to work the genre/setting you had in mind, while the players are thinking one thing. Needless to say the gamers got confused after awhile on what was ok, and what wasn't. Most of them left.

Now with that rant out of the way;

1-Characteristics and Derived Attributes: why cunning for soak? Could an intelligent character us intellect? Why not? The guys at ffg took a long time thinking up he stats for species and their purpose. They picked brawn for a reason. Picking anything else will potentially create a power stat.

2-Choosing a starting ship: I don't see a problem here. The players should love the flexibility.

3-obligation: Nothing new here. I'd make the obligation pertaining to the job much higher than 5. A level 5 obligation is more in the realm of a favor, nothing as important as a regular job. I'd say a regular job for the average person is at least 10.

4-Xp: looks good here, if you don't mind the task of figuring who got what, who was late, who left early, and the potential for favoritism (where the GM will give bonus xp to a player/character cause you think he/she is cool, not because they actually did something legendary or great.)

ultimately, it's your game. If you make it fun, you'll have people wanting to play. It's all good.

Note that Lightsaber is a fifth Brawn skill, but it may or may not be important (or even available) in your game.

True, but if you are allowing PCs to utilize F&D, it's not a big XP investment to key Lightsaber off your main characteristic. The talent is typically only 15XP deep so 30 for the tree and 15 for the talent; you're looking at only two or three sessions to have that lightsaber rocking regardless of your Brawn.

Note that Lightsaber is a fifth Brawn skill, but it may or may not be important (or even available) in your game.

True, but if you are allowing PCs to utilize F&D, it's not a big XP investment to key off your main characteristic. The talent is typically only 15XP deep so 30 for the tree and 15 for the talent; you're looking at only two or three sessions to have that lightsaber rocking regardless of your Brawn.

Those talents only apply if you have a Force Rating. Most characters don't, but they may still want to use a lightsaber, and if they do, it'll use Brawn.

Note that Lightsaber is a fifth Brawn skill, but it may or may not be important (or even available) in your game.

True, but if you are allowing PCs to utilize F&D, it's not a big XP investment to key off your main characteristic. The talent is typically only 15XP deep so 30 for the tree and 15 for the talent; you're looking at only two or three sessions to have that lightsaber rocking regardless of your Brawn.

Those talents only apply if you have a Force Rating. Most characters don't, but they may still want to use a lightsaber, and if they do, it'll use Brawn.

Yup, and I would make sure the unskilled player is rolling 2reds in melee instead of 2purple. It's the equivalent of shooting a heavy gun with your feet.

Those talents only apply if you have a Force Rating. Most characters don't, but they may still want to use a lightsaber, and if they do, it'll use Brawn.

Correct. I'm just pointing out that classifying Lightsaber as a Brawn based skill for the context for the discussion is a bit tricky because it is a variable that can be changed. I'm just metagaming out a bit on ways to take advantage of the presented house rule; if I were a PC looking to make the most of it, I'd want to get as many skills as possible to key off my Cunning because OP's house rule specifically incentivizes doing this. The goal is more to present an argument against allowing Cunning to be the basis for Soak.

I'll focus some more on the ship choice bu saying that your additional starting ships seem fine, but I would never hand over the remaning credits to the party. Have them start hungry it makes for so much better games.

Yet more considered and clear responses in here. Much obliged to those folks.

But let's assume not all of the posts made the most sense. Just as a hypothetical. Because then I still have a question.

Can someone clever tell me what they think the narrative difference is between Wound Threshold and (physical) Soak? Bonus points if you can do it in terms that apply to real world combat, because my brain likes that stuff. More bonus points if you can do it without using the verb "tank".

For reference, The EotE Core Book describes Wound Threshold thus:

p.31: A character's wound threshold represents how much

physical damage he can withstand before he is
knocked out.

And it describes Soak this way:

p.31: A character's soak value determines how much incoming damage he can shrug off before taking real

damage.

[These definitions are virtually identical on p.94.]

For additional reference, Defense is called out, on the same pages, as being "how difficult a character is to hit in combat situations".

Cut my wife with a razor she gets hurt, cut my brother with a razor he just gets pissed...

You can think of wounds like being battered and bruised, and some can take a beating for a while, but surpassing your threshold means you've taken more than everything you can take (which works in line with what others have said, because you gain a critical injury if you surpass your wound threshold). Soak is quite literally what a person can soak or resist. I don't know how accurate historically it is, but I read that, before boxing became a regulated sport (unregulated and bare knuckle), the main target was the torso, and a layer of fat on the body would help 'pad' against your opponent's blows. The punches would still hurt and leave a bruise (wounds), but a layer of your body's natural (a-hem) 'padding' would reduce the impact.

Wound threshold is a limit...think hit points. In real life it is how much pain you can tolerate prior to being knocked out.

Soak is how much incoming damage you can adsorb. It does not matter if this is through maneuvering your body so it hits a hard point (shoulder blade), tensing muscles to prevent the blow from penetrating too far, armor, ability to ignore pain, or a combination of the above.

I think at some point these mechanics get over-thought. Every game draws lines somewhere, and this is one. If you want to allow Cunning, go for it, however:

As noted, you could make the case for almost any stat then. Presence? The opponent avoids attacking you. Intellect? You calculate the attack's trajectory and avoid it. Agility? You're just **** fast. But all these, along with Cunning have one flaw: you have to be aware of the attack to use it. So if you want to make the game more complicated, you'd have to allow an "aware Soak" and an "unaware Soak".

Only Willpower and Brawn could arguably be used when the target is unaware, and Willpower is already used for Strain, so...

Brawn it is.

I would suggest getting at least 5 RAW sessions under your belt before revisiting your house rules. If this one still breaks your immersion then do what you need to do, but at least you'll be coming at it from a point of experience.

Okay, real world application of soak and wounds: you get shot while wearing a bullet-proof vest. You have your brawn which is how fit you are (30 year old athletic man is going to be able to take the punch of the bullet better than 70 year grandma, who could seriously hurt despite the vest), plus how protective the vest is, to subtract from the damage the bullet does. Were the bullet to actually penetrate the vest, that would be more likely be a crit, but we're not talking about that. Lets say we have a pistol that does 6 damage. The guys brawn is worth 3 and the vest is worth 2. So he gets receives 1 wound in the form of a nasty bruise on his chest, and maybe gets the wind knocked out of him. A less brawny person might get knocked off their feet and get a rib cracked, which in our game would be additional wounds taken from having less brawn and thus less soak. Also, remember that soak, wounds, and strain are abstractions.

I think the main difference between soak and wounds, in terms of application, as they are both derivatives of brawn--how fit/tough you are, is that one is also effected by what armor you wear. Though I personally wish soak was more dependent on armor and less on brawn, I don't see a good way to change it. The rules as written work.

When coming at a new system, it's sure is tempting to try to make big changes to things that don't make sense to you, but I would venture to say that this is generally a mistake. A lot of thought goes into most RPGs, and there's usually reasons for why things are the way they are. If something doesn't hold up in play, that's when you make changes (as many have done with space combat, i.e. Emperor Norton's House Rules.)

Note, I'm not talking about little changes. For instance, I gave everybody 1000 credits instead of 500 my first game because no one could have afforded to outfit themselves with what their characters called for otherwise.

A little bit of scathing advice for you Bricksteelhead. I have seen you use some words in your posts that tell me you really need to change your outlook. "Real world" and "realistic" don't really have a place here. You want real world/realistic combat in about any RPG, and you are not going to get it. If you do get anything anywhere close, the combat rounds will take hours to get through them. This is not a game of realism or real world stuff going on. The Force. Lightsabers. Faster than light travel, humanoid aliens that can cross breed with humans??? None of this stuff is real world or realistic. It is Space Fantasy. I have not played too many other RPGs other than the Star Wars lines, and none of them were realistic in any way, nor should they be. I do not want a combat simulator. If you really want that, why are you even playing a table top RPG? Go play Call of Duty or something. I can't say there are not good realistic real world combat RPGs out there, but I don't know of any.

My advice, like many others told you, try playing the game first. If you and your group really hate something, then change it. But change for the sake of change very rarely equals better. Some of the things you mentioned about not be balanced, scathing tirade, auto fire are perfectly balanced and fine. I have used or currently use them both in my game, I am the GM for my group, and they work just fine. Space piloting in combat is a little weird, but we don't use it much, so I have not spent my time trying to change it. You seem like you want to be a good GM for your group, and you come off as really intelligent, so I recommend that instead of wasting your time and energy in trying to house rule to "make the game better" spend that time and energy into making the game better for your players by developing cool NPCs, cool stories and great encounters/plots for them to go through. Don't worry too much about the mechanics of the game, they are here to help you tell your story, and I will tell you what, these are the best game mechanics I have ever used. Perfect? No, but nothing can ever be perfect, and by spending your time to make them perfect, you are robbing your players of that time you could be spending to make your story and game better. I can not see how using Cunning as a mechanic for Soak can make your game better.

For me, on the rare chance I get to be a player, nothing turns me off to a game faster than showing up, and having them GM/DM hand me his 30 page document on house rules, after I had bought and read a rule book. 99% of the house rules I have ever seen don't make game better, it just gives the person who claims to be a GM/DM smug satisfaction that they think they are smarter than the people who actually get paid to make games, and it gives the GM/DM this special self entitled sense of power that they can change the world mechanics on you making your life in the game that much more difficult. All too often it is a sense of me vs. you when it come to RPGs, and it should not be. The FFG system in designed to be a team effort of everyone involved to tell a great story. So again, don't worry about the reality of Wound Threshold. Just learn what it is in the game system, and use it. When you start getting bogged in the fine details of how blaster bolts are hitting people, and how far can you really throw a grenade, how is armor only giving me a setback die, you are starting to drain the fun from the game. I know. I have been there myself. Me and my friends spent too many hours trying to rationalize Vitality Points and Wound Points from the WotC D20 RCR Star Wars game, an exactly how they worked, and what happens when you get hit... All that talk we did never made for a better game though, that is the one fact I can tell you.

So, to sum up. Learn the rules and use them. That way your players know what to expect, and so will you. If you are yearning for more knowledge, listen to the Order 66/Tales from the Hydian Way podcasts. I never listen. Read up on becoming a great GM. But remember the most important part of being a GM; it is not he mechanics used that make for a great game, it is what you bring to the group for a story. I am not saying don't use the house rules if you want to, but they don't seem like they are adding anything to the game to make it better. And yes, for the record, I do you house rules!!! If you are interested, here is a link to them. Good luck to you and your group.

MTFBWY...A

https://edge-of-the-empire-6.obsidianportal.com/wikis/house-rules

A little bit of scathing advice for you Bricksteelhead.

If your version of "scathing", R2builder, is to pour out a heartfelt and thoughtful appeal that acknowledges your own past flaws, then you might need a Luther in your life. I like the Panache Die idea quite a bit; reminds me of the Stunt Dice from the DRAGON AGE RPG.

Wound threshold is a limit...think hit points. In real life it is how much pain you can tolerate prior to being knocked out.

Soak is how much incoming damage you can adsorb. It does not matter if this is through maneuvering your body so it hits a hard point (shoulder blade), tensing muscles to prevent the blow from penetrating too far, armor, ability to ignore pain, or a combination of the above.

But don't you absorb damage through your Wound Threshold? Soak lowers the value (or impact on performance, meaning the likelihood that it will reduce you to zero wounds) of hits that connect and do damage.

If you are reducing the meaning/value of incoming damage by maneuvering, that seems to be either due to your Agility or Cunning (active, short-term perception), not your Brawn. If you are ignoring pain, that's presumably your Willpower coming into play. (My left thigh is numb as hell after years of training leg kicks in Muay Thai. That doesn't mean that another incoming kick or seven won't shatter my knee in short order, it just means I won't feel it until it's too late. What Characteristic would that numbness equate to? High Strain threshold?)

No?

PS: If your reference to maneuvering an incoming blow into a more resilient part of your body was a reference to George Forman or Floyd Mayweather Jr, then props to you, sir or madam. Both great examples of high WT, high Cunning fighters

[Edit: clarity.]

As noted, you could make the case for almost any stat then. Presence? The opponent avoids attacking you. Intellect? You calculate the attack's trajectory and avoid it. Agility? You're just **** fast. But all these, along with Cunning have one flaw: you have to be aware of the attack to use it. So if you want to make the game more complicated, you'd have to allow an "aware Soak" and an "unaware Soak".

Only Willpower and Brawn could arguably be used when the target is unaware, and Willpower is already used for Strain, so...

Brawn it is.

Great points about awareness, whafrog. You say that, "Willpower is already used for Strain", though. Are you suggesting that it's also used for a special kind of Strain Soak that I somehow missed in the rules? Otherwise it's not an equal comparison, and that makes the case further for Willpower OR Brawn to add to Soak, and for Brawn and Willpower to affect WT and Strain as normal.

That is, unless someone can give me a reason to embrace, as every other rule does, the narrative-appropriateness of Brawn adding to Soak.

Though I personally wish soak was more dependent on armor and less on brawn, I don't see a good way to change it. The rules as written work.

When coming at a new system, it's sure is tempting to try to make big changes to things that don't make sense to you, but I would venture to say that this is generally a mistake. A lot of thought goes into most RPGs, and there's usually reasons for why things are the way they are. If something doesn't hold up in play, that's when you make changes (as many have done with space combat, i.e. Emperor Norton's House Rules.)

Note, I'm not talking about little changes. For instance, I gave everybody 1000 credits instead of 500 my first game because no one could have afforded to outfit themselves with what their characters called for otherwise.

I am hearing you on all this, especially the middle bit. That's why I'm spending this time to check now, with the expert players who know the game. If I didn't already agree with this, I wouldn't be bugging y'all for advice.

That and, as I think I mentioned in an earlier post, my players are really bad at rules changes that come in the middle of a campaign. So I want to get it right so their brains don't melt.

Personally this game has needed the least amount of house rules for me or my players and I have always been about house rules. Have a list of pages for Saga, a page for pathfinder, page for Vampire the Masquersde, 10 pages for d&d 3.5 and lower. That being said most of my house rules are just worked out with giving more starting XP and more xp per session.

1) All pcs get 170 extra xp to add to characteristics with the limit being they can only have one stat having a 5. This xp must be used on characteristics. Just run my games higher powered. No debates just like it that way in every system.(current pathfinder game has every character with at least one 20 and one 18 in their stats). Also if a stat is raised thru dedication it will affect wounds and strain if Brawn or int.

2)Characters then run an origin and background game, but then get 300 awarded xp. I have restricted 200 of that as a maximum on any force related specialization or power since my campaign has padawans from the temple attack that went into hiding and found other specializations from AoR or EoE.

3) Taking a new specialization gives pcs one rank in two of the skills from that new specialization that they don't already possess which I give to them as bonus xp if that applies. If they have ranks in all of the new specs skills they don't get this.

4) No pc can have a Force rating higher than 3 until they are considered a Knight or Knight equivalent in whatever tradition they have even if it is a personal belief of the force. Usually I roleplay this in the story. Then know pc can have higher than a 4 until they are considered a master. Just feel the force becomes broken or pointless to roll after 5 and would rather save that for legends. Also keeps pcs thinking diverse which is the style of my campaigns.

5)No characteristic can be higher than 5 without cyberware which can't be higher than 6.

6)No skill can be higher than 3 until a pc roleplays the training involved in become experts at 4 and masters at 5 ranks.

7)Crits can not be upgraded more than a total of 2 times regardless of amount of advantages. This doesn't count talents or weapon qualities that add to it. This goes for enemies as well.

8)First round of an encounter intiative tolls 3 advantages or a triumph can be used to gain a free movement, but only in the first round.

9) Last I do have a few homemade specializations and talents that we try out but with the rule they will be changed or taken out if the specialization is ever official or a close one to it. For example I have Jar'Kai and a special ops

Finally feel the mechanics of characteristics don't need tweaking and would highly recommend not changing them

You know, I wouldn't worry about what's "real". Yes, Jackie Chan would be hard to hit. Brock Lesnar would be hard to damage - but we're playing in a universe with Kung Fu Monks who can lift spaceship with their minds and have cool lazer swords. Please leave any semblance of reality with the Coat Check Girl.

The coat check girl is chained to a really huge creature who can't move more than 5 feet with out assistance, but yet has one of the largest crime syndicates in a galaxy far far away