Varnias Tybalt said:

Well, to be fair, the Japanese also had normal solders (except they had a bad habit of not giving up nor surrendering no matter the odds), a whole mess of civilians who would also fight if invaded, fighter planes, suicide bombers, normal bombs, lots of guns and bullets, and those katanas as well (tanks, to my knowledge, didn't really didn't play a major role in the Pacific battles). Unfortunately, there's no martial art move called supper atomic air strike (well, maybe there is in DBZ) and two atomic bombs will always trump a bunch of guys with katanas any day, no matter their training. They were seriously giving us extreme problems, katana and all, which is why we decided to bomb the ever loving snot out of a whole generation of Japanese civilians. It was the only thing anyone could think of to get them to stop.

As ninjas go, they didn't really use mystical kung-fu (and kung-fu is Chinese anyway). They used psychological warfare, misdirection, dirty tactics, and the all famous Sneak Attack to put sharp pointy things into other things that scream and bleed... or poison in their food, or put a poisoned sharp thing into the screaming bleeding thing, etc. If they engaged in hand to hand combat, it would have been out of desperation or to assist in maneuvering a target so they could better transfix the target with something sharp and pointy and it would not have been flashy but quick, brutal, and to the point. The ninja killed folks, usually as quietly as they could get away with while keeping a eye out for making it look near impossible or employ a few theatrics to spread fear and misconception about their abilities and who and what they really were.

As far as Dark Heresy goes, just have a look at the illustration on DH pg 228 and tell me those two aren't Space Ninjas. And on DH pg 120, there's a fine illustration of a couple of Space Ninjas flipping out and killing everyone (there's a better one elsewhere but I can not remember where) -those two Space Ninjas will also soon be wailing away on their awesome air guitars ;-). Though, granted, they are death cultists and not temple assassins, I think the all powerful supper trained can go toe to toe with a space marine assassins of the temples are the apex of Space Ninjitsu.

If the Space Knights get to use fully automatic armour piercing grenade launchers (which the Not Space Knights didn't use), then Space Ninjas can use supper snipper rifles, crazy helmets of psychic doom, mighty morphing power drugs, and copious amounts of brainwashing and alteration to assist them in flipping out and killing everyone. In the end, they still fallow the Space Ninja way of doing things: dirty sneaky tactics, copious amounts of psychological warfare, stealth and misdirection, and stylish black outfits which conceal their identity and help them get all supper ninja stealthy.

Graver said:

The whole of your post was right on the point, and this line made me laugh todays best laugh :-)

Graver said:

I know, it was sort of a ***** move by the U.S, and it will be forever remembered.

But I wasn't really being very serious with that last remark, im quite sure you understand.

Graver said:

I know kung-fu is from China, and I know a great deal about ninjas (the historical ones that is) as well.

But when im talking about "ninjas" and kung-fu gimmicks in my other posts im not talking about historical facts, but rather the popular image held by pretty much everyone these days. That Ninja's and all sorts of eastern martial artists are some sort of mythical combat monster with near magical abilities and techniques. We've all seen the movies about them at one time or another. And while they are entertaining, im not really sure I agree that the concept really belong in 40K.

I know most people will invoke "the rule of cool" on me for saying that but at least hear my motivation behind my opinion. Yes the rule of cool is a fun one, but remember: sometimes what's not being included in any given setting helps to serve why the setting is cool in the first place. I mean, if you make a setting where EVERYTHING is included and ANYTHING is possible, then the individual aspects of that setting will seem sort of "watered down".

Take a game like like Rifts for example (a multi genre RPG from 1990). It's hard to describe Rifts with a decent overview other than saying that it actually has EVERYTHING. Power Armoured Space Marines? Sure thing! Terminator/Robocop Cyborgs? You betcha! Lovecraftian alien monsters? Oh yes. Wild West influences? Of course! Mythological elements like elves, orks, gnomes, ogres, demons, vampires and dragons? Yes sir! Magic spells? Yup. Sci-fi technology like space ships, rail guns, laser weapons etc.? Yes Rifts have those too.

If you wanted to place Rifts into some sort of genre you'd have to call it a: cyberpunk, sci-fi, fantasy, horror, mythology, western role playing game (and thats me trying to give a decent overview so im probably leaving several apt genres out)

Rifts is a game where the rule of cool have gone way too far. It includes so very much that the individual elements (which would be fantastic in another setting) just don't seem that interesting. I mean how could the concept of dragons or space marines really stand out from eachother when the setting includes both and an excessive amount of other fantastic aspects?

They can't. They all seem watered down. And that's what I mean when I say that some of the things that make a setting cool are the very things that are left out of the setting altogether. "Less is more" quite simply. You feel me?

Graver said:

I don't see any "Space Ninjas". I see two women in fetish gimp suits, corsettes and high heeled shoes, with bionics attached to their heads. Quite original if you ask me, even if it is a blatant case of fan service. The only Ninja-esque aspects I see are the swords which kind of resemble katanas, but If I saw someone dressed like that on the town I wouldn't think "ninja" I would ask myself if there's some sort of fetish convention going on or something.

But I kind of saw that one coming. Yes I can concede to that of all Imperial Assassins, Death Cult assassins are the most ninja-esque ones. As for the other assassins, while some of them do certainly employ methods of murder that historical ninjas did, I can't really claim that ninjas hold some sort of exclusive rights to deception, disguise, poisoning, throat slittings etc. etc. So I can't really say that I agree that the Temple Assassins resemble ninjas that much. Neither from a pop-culture standpoint, historical standpoint nor even a visual standpoint either. Black leather bodygloves doesn't look like something a ninja would wear. A black mask, a black gi and a black pair of tucked in hakama pants in a pair of black ninja-boots would certainly look the pop-culture picture, if you ask me.

Graver said:

I don't mind Space Knights (even if I only consider a selevt few of the Astartes Chapters to be "knightly"). You pretty much have to include some sort of Space Knight if you're going to create an Empire and a religion which draws so heavily from the Catholic church as it does.

Space Ninjas on the other hand, doesn't make quite such a perfect fit in my opinion. I don't mind space assassins, I just see some cheesyness in space NINJAS...

@Varnias: Sorry if I don't quote you, it just seems like if I were to do that, the text blocks would start getting excessive.

I agree with a lot of what you said, especially regarding the role of Hollywood kung-fu in 40k; it doesn't really fit the military fantasy that has been set up. However, I still stand by my statement that assassins are, indeed, Space Ninjas (or possibly Fetish Ninjas in Space, but that's more of a mouthful and it doesn't quite fallow the theme of Space Knight, Space Viking, Space Pirate, Space Roman.... Guy, etc). Is it cheesy? Hell ya! Is anything else in 40k cheesy? Hell ya! Is that one of it's charms? Hell ya!

Everything in 40k has a stylistic root or inspiration from the real world but tweaked and reworked in a unique 40k way making them a Space Something. While, of course, referring to them as such is a gross and humorous oversimplification just like referring to Dark Heresy as Catholic Space Nazis vs Cthuluh is, it's still apt. After all, their over-all aesthetic was drawn from modern (80's modern) of the ninja and given a twist like everything else.

While, yes, they aren't just ninjas with jet packs and ray guns (unless one is of course) or some such, and there's actually a lot of other cultures and famous assassin type cults mixed in with them such as the Hashshashins, they are still, on the surface and superficially tied to the ninja myths. After all, they are groups of secretive sneaky individuals who achieve their murderous goals through stealthy moves in the shadows and crazy unmatched physical prowess (the Hashshashins didn't even have that, just stealth). They aren't little old ladies who slips a bit of poison into your drink, your best friend who puts a knife in your gullet, or some guy named Vinny the Something with a .22 in his pocket. They are heavily trained almost mystical individuals who can do things no one else can do (with a lot of folks ending up dead because of it) who belong to secretive orders of others like themselves who make it a point to be as spooky, mysterious, and as stealthy as they can while flipping out and killing a whole lot of folks who stand no chance against their awesome leet abilities. That's pretty much the modern myth of the ninja right there.

The mystic ninja to the modern pop-culture mind is the apex of supper silent leet death (potentially with a raging hard-on that can level cities and the skills to blow anyone away with an awesome air guitar solo as well, but those aren't necessary). The Imperial Assassins, be they death cultists or temple assassins are the apex of this leet silent death in 40k. Granted, a few other bits have worked their way in there such as the mystique of the snipper and what-not, but at it's root, the modern conception of the ninja is the driving force of the Imperial Assassins. Yes, they are much more then that, but still, just as Space Marines are now Space Knights, the assassins are, indeed Space Ninjas.

True, they don't fit as well into the Holy Roman Empire In SpaaaAAAaaace as Space Knights do which might account for why we usually see more of them then we do of the Space Ninjas.

And besides all that, Space Hashshashin is one hell of a mouthful and would leave no one to fight the Space Pirates for possession of the Awesome Cup and Title.