A player experienced the following during the final round of Swiss play at a Regional event (or higher):

He set up all his ships and his opponent setup his two ships last. His opponent then plotted 3 maneuvers, not in his setup area but out into the debris field with his one ship before returning it to its starting position.

What do you guys think?

*pronouns changed to clear up who did the ship moving. It was the opposing player with the last placement who moved his ships, NOT the first player who set his ships in position.

*bump.

Oh I'm sorry, did I accidentally hit the table and are all the asteroids in a different position now? Well, let's just play them where they lie shall we?

Call a TO over. That's just not okay.

What do you mean by "plotted 3 maneuvers"? Do you mean that he used the templates and executed "test" maneuvers to see where he'd end up? Because if so, that's definitely not allowed. You can make whatever measurements you want during setup, but only within the setup area.

He may have misinterpreted an FAQ I saw but now cannot find. It said that in set-up, you can use the maneuver templates to help set up your ships. I can't find it though so cannot get the exact wording.

All templates and the range ruler are legal to use during the setup phase of the game. That is what your opponent was doing. It may look like premeasuring, and in some ways is, but it does not count as such and is perfectly legal.

I guess this is all assuming that you're looking at the first potential maneuver out. If you're saying he dropped his ship on the table in the middle of the board and then measured back to a starting position that could get him there I'll admit that is a bit fishy but it is also telegraphing is intent far in advance; what you could do with that information is up to you. Now if you do call a TO over what do you think is supposed to happen? You want him disqualified before the game even starts? Do you think the game needs to be backed up and the set-up phase started all over again? I don't think there is anything that would say the guy can't put his ship where he wanted it to go.

All templates and the range ruler are legal to use during the setup phase of the game. That is what your opponent was doing. It may look like premeasuring, and in some ways is, but it does not count as such and is perfectly legal.

I guess this is all assuming that you're looking at the first potential maneuver out. If you're saying he dropped his ship on the table in the middle of the board and then measured back to a starting position that could get him there I'll admit that is a bit fishy but it is also telegraphing is intent far in advance; what you could do with that information is up to you. Now if you do call a TO over what do you think is supposed to happen? You want him disqualified before the game even starts? Do you think the game needs to be backed up and the set-up phase started all over again? I don't think there is anything that would say the guy can't put his ship where he wanted it to go.

He set his ship up and then plotted 3 maneuvers with it, as in laid a maneuver template down, leap frogged his ship, repeat. So he essentially did his first 3 maneuvers from the starting setup position.

I'll look into the relevant rules sections for this as it has been some time since I have read them.

Also, I thought this would be an unusual rules case that this sub-forum is good at proving/disproving.

All templates and the range ruler are legal to use during the setup phase of the game. That is what your opponent was doing. It may look like premeasuring, and in some ways is, but it does not count as such and is perfectly legal.

I guess this is all assuming that you're looking at the first potential maneuver out. If you're saying he dropped his ship on the table in the middle of the board and then measured back to a starting position that could get him there I'll admit that is a bit fishy but it is also telegraphing is intent far in advance; what you could do with that information is up to you. Now if you do call a TO over what do you think is supposed to happen? You want him disqualified before the game even starts? Do you think the game needs to be backed up and the set-up phase started all over again? I don't think there is anything that would say the guy can't put his ship where he wanted it to go.

He set his ship up and then plotted 3 maneuvers with it, as in laid a maneuver template down, leap frogged his ship, repeat. So he essentially did his first 3 maneuvers from the starting setup position.

I'll look into the relevant rules sections for this as it has been some time since I have read them.

Also, I thought this would be an unusual rules case that this sub-forum is good at proving/disproving.

Yeah, this one is clearly bad sportsmanship.

All templates and the range ruler are legal to use during the setup phase of the game.

You can use the templates to check spacing between ships and such, that doesn't mean you can plot maneuvers a head of time. Just because you're in the setup phase doesn't mean you're allowed to premeasure a maneuver.

However, players may use their range rulers and maneuver templates to help them set up formations during deployment.

Page 4 of the online rulebook:

Using maneuver templates for setting up is legal, but the ruling was to avoid custom templates (that are disallowed) so the maneuver templates are there for measuring position between ships and location/orientation in the setup area during setup. Premeasuring is not legal or illegal here, except there are many rulings declaring premeasuring illegal.

Page 6 of the online rulebook:

During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

So it technically states during the planning phase, but would it not be illegal to also test a maneuver during the endphase, else why have the rule that you can just work around?

Also, Alex has stated that hand measuring for BR is also illegal.

So it technically states during the planning phase, but would it not be illegal to also test a maneuver during the endphase, else why have the rule that you can just work around?

Exactly...

The rule is that you're only allowed to measure something when the rules call for it. So you can measure with a template when performing a maneuver, you can check range when instructed to do, you check arc when you're picking a target, ect...

What the guy in this story was doing is pre-measuring pure and simple and that is not allowed.

Page 4 of the online rulebook:

0. To place a ship, its owner lays the range ruler straight out from his edge of the play area and places the ship anywhere that is entirely within the Range 1 section, facing any direction (see setup diagram on page 5).

This should be enough to prove the "ploting 3 maneuvers" illegal. If you lay down the template and move the ship so it lands outside range 1 of your edge, the you have placed the ship in an illegal position.

All ships start outside the play area, and are then placed in the play area as described above, at no time during setup are you allowed to place your ships in the playarea without adhearing to the quoted section.

I supose it doesn't strictly forbid ploting maneuvers that are within the range 1 band from your edge though...

Yeah the way he did it (jumping the ship each time) is wrong due to moving the ship around. And it's a bit annoying.

But if he had say, put the 5-speed template down to line his TIEs up so no one in the formation hit an asteroid on the first turn (keeping the TIEs in the set-up area the whole time), that's legal (if still a little annoying)

I would find it humorous. If he plotted the first 3 rounds of flight, well there are very low odds that he would keep that path, and if so he has telegraphed his strategy or basically announced that he's a totally new player. Laying down one template when setting up doesn't bother me at all and I don't think its illegal, but 3 is hillarious! I'd ask him to declare future actions while he's at it. Have some fun!

The most annoying part to me would be that he did this AFTER his opponent placed his ships.

If he physically picked up the ship and moved it from the starting position, I would call over the TO and ask to reposition my ships.

The general idea is that you place your ships in PS/Initiative order and once you say you're done, touching and movement of the ship should not happen again until the Activation Phase.

I would not like to see my opponent adjusting the angle of a ship once he has completed placement - so picking it up to plot maneuvers and bringing it back would not guarantee it was placed in the original position.

that's legal (if still a little annoying)

I don't see how. If the template extends out of the starting area you're no longer trying to set up a formation, you're measuring a maneuver.

that's legal (if still a little annoying)

I don't see how. If the template extends out of the starting area you're no longer trying to set up a formation, you're measuring a maneuver.

I'd disagree with that. I certainly can see having the templates 'extending out of the starting area' when the formation you are trying to set is one obtained after the first turn maneuvers. Of course having the first turn maneuvers already plotted out is a bit different than plotting back from where you want to be three turns later.

The most annoying part to me would be that he did this AFTER his opponent placed his ships.

If he physically picked up the ship and moved it from the starting position, I would call over the TO and ask to reposition my ships.

The general idea is that you place your ships in PS/Initiative order and once you say you're done, touching and movement of the ship should not happen again until the Activation Phase.

I would not like to see my opponent adjusting the angle of a ship once he has completed placement - so picking it up to plot maneuvers and bringing it back would not guarantee it was placed in the original position.

Hold on a second. I must have misread something. I guess I was working on the assumption that the guy was 'setting up' his last ships where he a higher PS than his opponents. If he is doing that after placing a ship that is a whole other can of worms.

If he's still placing ships, on his turn to place the ship, I think it's a gray area that isn't really addressed by the rules.

If he finished placing that ship and then moves it that's clearly against the rules.

The most annoying part to me would be that he did this AFTER his opponent placed his ships.

If he physically picked up the ship and moved it from the starting position, I would call over the TO and ask to reposition my ships.

The general idea is that you place your ships in PS/Initiative order and once you say you're done, touching and movement of the ship should not happen again until the Activation Phase.

I would not like to see my opponent adjusting the angle of a ship once he has completed placement - so picking it up to plot maneuvers and bringing it back would not guarantee it was placed in the original position.

Hold on a second. I must have misread something. I guess I was working on the assumption that the guy was 'setting up' his last ships where he a higher PS than his opponents. If he is doing that after placing a ship that is a whole other can of worms.

"He set up all his ships and his opponent setup his two ships last. He then plotted 3 maneuvers, not in his setup area but out into the debris field with his one ship before returning it to its starting position."

I am reading this that the player that set up his ships first was the same one who plotted the maneuvers.

That was my bad use of pronouns. It was the opposing player who moved his high PS ship after he set it to test his maneuvering before he confirmed it set in place.

I certainly can see having the templates 'extending out of the starting area' when the formation you are trying to set is one obtained after the first turn maneuvers.

Which means you're premeasuring your first maneuver, which as far as I know is not allowed. The rule about using templates to set up formations is as far as I know only to allow you to space stuff out in the starting zone, not to plot out where they will end up after the first turn.

If someone can point to anything that would suggest you can plot out your first move, then I'd consider that. But until someone does, you're premeasuring your first move and that is not allowed.

Edit: I emailed FFG to ask them. Because even though I feel the rules are clear, there is some gray area there. What exactly is allowed when they say you can use templates to set up a formation?

Tie Swarms frequently did this to line up their formations correctly, essentially preplanning the first move. I don't think anyone had a problem with that. Also using your range ruler to make sure you don't land on an asteroid with your straight move happens very frequently at set up, I do it all the time.

Plotting 3 maneuver ahead of time? Definitely pushing it, but it wouldn't bother me. I would say that using his templates AND ship to plan the maneuver is not in the spirit of the game. Using JUST his templates to check set up seems okay. Regardless, it just shows his inexperience and gives his opponent a big advantage. If he was going to do this, he should have just practiced his asteroid and ship setup at home. High level players know where their maneuver will land them.

The rule about using templates to set up formations is as far as I know only to allow you to space stuff out in the starting zone, not to plot out where they will end up after the first turn.

As far as you know. The rules don't actually say that, you are just assuming those conditions.

Its a REALLY good assumption. I have no doubt that (or something similar) is what was meant, but the rules don't actually SAY that. What they actually say is you can use maneuver templates to set up your ships before the game starts, with no qualifiers about HOW you can use them.

with no qualifiers about HOW you can use them.

I agree, the RAW is pretty vague. Which sadly is kind of common in X-Wing.

RAI I think everyone would agree that in the game the only time you can place a template in front of your ship, is when you're preforming a maneuver. But the rules say "During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up."

Does this mean we can use templates to test where ships will end up in other phases, such as the end phase? No, because the only time you should be using a template is when instructed to do so.

Now it says that you can use templates to help set up formations... "Custom “setup” templates designed to aid players in ship deployment are not allowed. However, players may use their range rulers and maneuver templates to help them set up formations during deployment."

But it doesn't actually define in what way you can use them. Myself I believe that anything that measures a maneuver other then when you're actually performing that maneuver is against the RAI, so you shouldn't be using them to plot out where your ships will end up at the end of the first activation phase.

But you could argue that RAW you're setting them up to end up in a formation, which the rules do allow... So I emailed FFG about it to get an answer.

That was my bad use of pronouns. It was the opposing player who moved his high PS ship after he set it to test his maneuvering before he confirmed it set in place.

Ahhh... Little difference there, but I'm still not sure it's fair for a player to plot out moves like that.

I have set up my ships before, thinking I could make a bank or turn, only to end up having them bump. Usually doesn't hurt too much in the first round, but 2 moves later, it could make a critical difference. I especially question it in terms of his making sure that he will clear obstacles. If your opponent knows where you will start, I think he's getting an unfair advantage in determining how to fly to reduce his chances of hitting a rock or using them for partial cover.

I will be interested to see if anyone hears back from FFG.

RAI I think everyone would agree....

Oh, absolutely RAI he shouldn't have been doing what he was. But when asked to cite a rule disallowing that, I wouldn't be able to provide any.