Hey, got some questions about the Deep Realms mechanics:

1) How exactly do you understand the Tunnel cards mechanics? Do you start encountering the cards from the stack on the same turn you drew them. Because in the rules it says, encounter if you decide to press on but you draw them as soon as you land on the space and have the chance to press on the next turn..

2) What do you do with an enemy that you dont defeat while you are on the Catacombs space or its alternative in the Rats domain? It was in the stack of the three cards facedown, you battled it and lost or had a stand-off. Do you put it faceup on the space and encounter it after you have encountered all the remaining cards in the stack? What if it was the last card of the three?

3) Are the treasure cards and shop cards on both the Wraith lord and the Rat queen considered faceup andventure cards when resolving Raging Volcano, or an Omen from the Shattered World prophecy, or similar? Meaning you discard them as well?

Thanks a lot for your answers, hope, theres not a similar thread on the very next page:-)

1) Where in the rules does it say that you have to wait a turn to encounter the first card? The space just tells you to encounter one card each turn.

2) If you don't defeat an enemy there, it is placed faceup on the space. After your stack of cards is empty, you have to encounter it to get to the Rats Nest or the Throne Room. (That's written in the rules. )

3) As far as I'm reading, there is nothing in the rules about that. We could go either way about it, but in my book, removing the rewards like this would kill half the purpose of the expansion, so I'd just say they are not effected by anything like those cards.

1) Where in the rules does it say that you have to wait a turn to encounter the first card? The space just tells you to encounter one card each turn.

2) If you don't defeat an enemy there, it is placed faceup on the space. After your stack of cards is empty, you have to encounter it to get to the Rats Nest or the Throne Room. (That's written in the rules. )

3) As far as I'm reading, there is nothing in the rules about that. We could go either way about it, but in my book, removing the rewards like this would kill half the purpose of the expansion, so I'd just say they are not effected by anything like those cards.

ad 1) the space text makes it pretty obvious, while in the rules it says clearly: If you decide to press on, encounter a card from the stack, if its empty move to the wraith lord. The first turn you enter the space, you come from the Dungeon, after a normal die roll, you havent had a chance to press on yet, thats what makes it a bit confusing. So far I have played it as encounter on the turn you draw the stack. But the rules say you draw from the stack if you decide to press on, which you actually do the next turn after you enter the realm, not the one you enter it, get my point?

ad 2) I know the rules say you encounter the cards after you have resolved the last card from the stack, well thinking about it, I dont know why I even asked this question..:-) And just one thing, you say you have to encounter the faceup cards on the space to get to the throne room or the rats nest, thats not true. The faceup cards are encountered after you have dealt with the last card from the stack, yet whatever the outcome, you can move on the next turn to the throne room or rats nest, even if that leaves some of them on the space, unless of course, the outcome isnt that you draw some more cards and add them to the stack,

ad 3) I hope someone clears this up, because in the Deep Realms rules it say, you cant take the objects on the throne room or the rats nest, instead you engage the Wraith lord or the Rat Queen, implying that they actually are considered faceup objects on the space that you just cant take, which means, following the basic rules, they are considered faceup adventure cards for the purpose of such cards as Raging Volcano, or a lot of spells too. On the other hand the rules also call these objects a loot pile. BUT they also say you ditch an object after you lose to the Rat Queen, so anyone else can win it. They dont say add the object to the loot pile or some other kind of deck. You just ditch the object on a space where it cant be taken following the normal rules, you have to win it, yet it still is an object on a space. I think the loot pile simply is an object of such cards as the Raging Volcano (or many others) and in the case of this particular card, they just gt discarded along with the other faceup adventure cards, rendering both realms obsolete, sadly. Well, not that obsolete, you still can use it to cross the City and the Dungeon. Which I actually used several times, when the Harbinger entered the City.

1) After your reply and re-reading the rules (again^^) - I think you just stated the obvious: You enter the 'Realm' at Olds Sewers or Catacombs, end your movement and your turn. On your next turn, you get your card stack and encounter the first card and so on.

2) I know, XD. - Guess I should've made myself clear - I just wanted to say that you can't ignore faceup cards on the space after your stack is done - and who knows, as a result, you might not even stay in the realm and/or die, so you wouldn't be able to press on anyway.

3) Like I said, it's probably something that was never thought of during the creation of this expansion and/or playtesting. (Still pretty strange.)

Literally, you are of course right. Guess I'm going to houserule this one for my playgroup (if I get the votes^^).

[btw. agree with you on that one - pretty neat way to get away from the Harbinger, yes. ]

I'm afraid I disagree, Lorinor, based on my understanding of the rules.

I believe the rules of Deep Realms say you end your movement when you enter a Realm. It doesn't say you end your turn. Under normal Talisman rules, when you enter a new space, you encounter it, unless you were moved there after a defeat. Therefore, I believe it works like this.

You enter the Catacombs and end your movement, immediately encounter the space (create a Tunnel stack), then immediately encounter the top Tunnel Card. Next turn, you may either escape (roll to move and go into the Dungeon) or press on (encounter the top card of your Tunnel stack). An undefeated Enemy or otherwise unresolved card would remain face-up on the Tunnel stack and be encountered next turn. Each turn, you may escape (roll into the Dungeon) or press on (encounter the top Tunnel Card). When you successfully encounter the final card of your Tunnel stack, on the same turn, you immediately encounter any other Adventure Cards on the Catacombs (such as Objects ditched by other characters). Next turn, you can escape (roll into the Dungeon) or press on (into the Throne Room).

If you enter the Skull Passage, you end your movement and immediately encounter the space (draw two Bridge Cards). Next turn, you can escape (roll into the Dungeon) or press on by moving one space into the Rat Run, then immediately encounter it (draw two Bridge Cards). Next turn, you can escape (roll into the City) or press on (actually going back the way you came) by moving one space into the Skull Passage and immediately encountering it.

I believe Treasure Cards and Objects are considered face-up Adventure Cards regardless of their location on the board, even in the Throne Room, and thus would be obliterated by effects such as the Destruction Spell or Raging Volcano. Likewise, I think a character in the Skull Passage, Catacombs, or Throne Room can cast Displacement on a Treasure Card in the Throne Room to move it to another one of those three spaces, as all three spaces comprise a Region called the Wraith Lord's Domain.

At least this is my understanding of the Deep Realms...

I'm afraid I disagree, Lorinor, based on my understanding of the rules.

I believe the rules of Deep Realms say you end your movement when you enter a Realm. It doesn't say you end your turn. Under normal Talisman rules, when you enter a new space, you encounter it, unless you were moved there after a defeat. Therefore, I believe it works like this.

You enter the Catacombs and end your movement, immediately encounter the space (create a Tunnel stack), then immediately encounter the top Tunnel Card. Next turn

Well, I believe we all agree that you draw the stack the moment you encounter the space for the first time. I just wondered whether you encounter the first card from the stack right after that or on the next turn, because you do that if you decide to press on. BUT you can decide to press on the next turn, not the turn that doesnt start in the Deep Realms. Thats all, I personally favour the option to encounter the first card the same turn you draw the stack, though I think its not what the rules say

Artaterxes - The rules say you have to press on and move in order to encounter the space which you can't do in that case, because you have already ended your movement. You can't move twice in one turn, can you?

About the stack - the rules actually don't mention if the card stays on the stack or not - but to encounter a card usually means it is on your space.

[Of course this whole stuff can be nonetheless houseruled to everyones liking. ]

Artaterxes - The rules say you have to press on and move in order to encounter the space which you can't do in that case, because you have already ended your movement. You can't move twice in one turn, can you?

The rule about press on and escape is for when you are about to move inside the Deep Realms, since you don't follow the normal rules for movement.

When you first land on the Old Sewers or Catacombs, you follow the instructions on the space. Like Artaterxes said, the spaces say "Take the top 3 Tunnel Cards and put them in a stack in front of you. Encounter the top card of your stack each turn until you have no cards remaining." You form the stack after ending your movement but the turn doesn't end after you form the stack. It ends after you completed the space encounter, which says "encounter the top card of your stack".

Deep Realms navigation takes a long time already, there's no need to add 1 more wasted turn to it.

About the stack - the rules actually don't mention if the card stays on the stack or not - but to encounter a card usually means it is on your space.

Rules say that when you are on the Old Sewers or Catacombs, you turn the top card of the stack faceup and encounter it. If it's not defeated (Enemy) or disarmed (Trap), it stays on top of the stack and is encountered again if you choose to press on next turn (it's still the top card of the stack).

The rule about encountering cards on the space is for cards that may be ditched or moved there by some effect. Of course if you encounter an Object and don't want/cannot take it, it is ditched and goes on the space as per ditching rules.

Rules say that when you are on the Old Sewers or Catacombs, you turn the top card of the stack faceup and encounter it. If it's not defeated (Enemy) or disarmed (Trap), it stays on top of the stack and is encountered again if you choose to press on next turn (it's still the top card of the stack).

Warlock, where is that exactly? Cant find it in the rules anywhere..

Unfortunately the rules PDF on the website cannot be searched for text.

It is on page 4, in the section "Old Sewers and Catacombs", second paragraph.

Don't expect to find every single word, the rules just say that you encounter the top card of the stack, turning it faceup if it is facedown.

This should suggest that cards can be faceup on top of the stack, so undefeated Enemies or other cards that have not been discarded but must be encountered again (e.g. Sphinx of Khayu) remain on top of the stack faceup .

You may argue that the rules only tell you what happens if you choose to press on and technically you cannot press on if you've already moved your character. The Catacombs and Old Sewers space are still to be encountered on the turn you ended your move there, and they say "Form a stack of 3 Tunnel Cards" and "Encounter the top card of your stack each turn until you have no cards remaining".

The problem is that when you land on those spaces the first time, you follow the instructions written on them as usual for Talisman. When you start a turn on those spaces, you should move away but in the Deep Realms you follow the press on / escape special rule instead. Therefore the rulebook only explains what happens in that special case.

You're right, man. Its that one sentence that makes it clear that if you dont defeat the enemy or disarm the trap, it goes back to the top of the stack, not to the space - turning it faceup if it is facedown

And about that drawing from the stack on turn 2, youre right as well. Well, its always seemed weird to me, having to enter the space, draw the cards and do nothing, I just needed a viable explanation.

I take it, you agree the objects on Wraih Lord and Rat Queen are considered faceup adventure cards for the purposes of all cards that target such cards?

I take it, you agree the objects on Wraih Lord and Rat Queen are considered faceup adventure cards for the purposes of all cards that target such cards?

Yes, they can be destroyed, displaced and... replaced by the Philosopher? I have no idea of what card he should draw as a replacement, though.

I take it, you agree the objects on Wraih Lord and Rat Queen are considered faceup adventure cards for the purposes of all cards that target such cards?

Yes, they can be destroyed, displaced and... replaced by the Philosopher? I have no idea of what card he should draw as a replacement, though.

I think the Philosopher would draw at random from whichever deck the discarded Object or Treasure came from (Treasure, Magic Emporium or Armoury). The Philosopher special ability doesn't state that they specifically draw an Adventure card to replace the discarded card, but just they "draw another card to replace it". In such a bizarre case as this, I think you would default to whatever deck the discarded card originated from.

It would be more simple if the ability would default to the same deck of the replaced card, but this is not the right solution because it is not applicable to some very basic cases. For example, if the Philosopher lands on a faceup Purchase card, he can apply his ability because it is treated like an Adventure card, but won't draw a random Purchase card as a replacement. He's drawing an Adventure card as a replacement.

This is the Philosopher ability:

Whenever you land on faceup Adventure Cards, you may discard one card of your choice that you do not wish to encounter and draw another card to replace it, which you must encounter.

The fact that "Adventure card" is not repeated every time should not suggest that the discarded (or replacement) card is not an Adventure card. They all are "Adventure Cards". The key to understand abilities working on card draw, is to recognise they are limited to Adventure cards only, and by extension to all those cards that can be considered Adventure cards.

When you apply this ability to cards that are considered Adventure cards only when faceup on the board (i.e. Dragon, Bridge, Tunnel, Nether), you cannot extend the ability over its limits. Those decks are not Adventure Cards and cannot be affected by abilities that tell you to draw Adventure cards.

My understanding is that in this case you draw as a replacement an Adventure card, or the card which is normally drawn in that Region when instructed to draw Adventure Cards. In the Deep Realms there's no rule stating that Adventure Card = Tunnel Card, as opposed to Dungeon, Highland, City and Woodland, this is why the situation is weird.

Yes, it seems that the Rat Queen's Lair and the Wraith Lord's Domain are the only two Regions without an associated Adventure deck clearly indicated.

You simply have to consider which deck you would look at when casting Divination. In the Outer, Middle, and Inner Regions (all three Inner Regions) it would be the main Adventure deck. In the Dungeon, the Dungeon deck, etc.

You can argue that the Adventure deck of the Wraith Lord's Domain is the Dungeon deck and that of the Rat Queen's Lair is the City deck. Or, you could argue that they are both the main Adventure deck. Just think what deck would you draw from when you cast Divination? That would also answer the Philosopher question. I'd personally go with Dungeon and City decks.