A regiment that is not issued lasguns is quite simply an accident. And as for the different marks and patterns ... not even the US manage to equip all of their infantry with the exact same gun , yet I wouldn't say they don't practice standardisation. Ironically enough, the Imperial Guard is probably in a better situation than the US military here, in that at least all the lasguns and laspistols seem to be able to take the same chargepack, whereas the US don't even manage to shoot the same bullet, let alone use the same magazines.

In guns of Tanith, the troopers are issued chare packs that aren't compatible with their tanith lasgun.

Which is among one of many reasons why I don't think Gaunt's Ghosts are really 40k novels, but generic military sci fi with a 40k sheen over it. That bit made no sense. The major element of the lasgun is that it should be an easy thing for the Imperial Guard to keep supplied. The different patterns of lasgun don't matter so much, but they should all accept the same charge pack. Also, as mentioned, the charge packs should be rechargeable, so why didn't they just recharge the ones they had? Because Dan Abnett wanted a story where they are short of ammunition, and he ignored the canon elements of the lasgun to allow that to happen.

One thought I had to partially reconcile it was that the charge packs as delivered had a "sleeve" on them to fit larger style lasguns more comfortably, which could have easily been removed to make them fit the slimmer style lasguns of the Tanith. However, due to the lack of technical understanding by the characters in the story they were not aware of this and thought the packs would not fit their weapons and they left them behind.

Still fails to explain why they didn't recharge their existing packs...

Sometimes these are just cosmetics, other times more armour or whatever, but that is false that there is just the charge pack case that is different.

Yeah, but I've actually quoted this earlier, and the codex still says the different patterns are compatible.

"As with lighter armaments, these tend to a standardised basic form across the Imperium, with only minor variations in design and build quality. Indeed, planetary Lords are obliged to provide heavy weapons of a basically standard type for the Imperial Guard, as well as stocks of spares, fuel processors, and logistic support as appropriate. Although a planet's defence forces will almost certainly include locally designed vehicles, often of the most wild or specialised kind, these are almost never recruited into the Imperial Guard because of the difficulty of maintenance and impracticality of keeping them running."

So the codex explicitly pushes compatibility here - and let's be honest, there would be no reason for Imperial Law demanding standardised supplies if they weren't meant to be exchangeable. This is also where the Standard Template Constructs come in, by the way. With how they were described, these systems modify and print out equipment suitable for localised production, so that for example a Valhallan and a Cadian lasgun will use different materials due to availability. One may have a stock of wood, the other of metal, and one may feature a built-in scope .. but the parts and in particular the internals will still be interchangeable as they were printed according to the same universal STC standard, and there is no reason for them to be different.

Perhaps the Tanith story could be excused by clinging to the "almost never" part in the last sentence of the quote, though, as in the regiment having been raised with the wrong weapons in the first place?

For one thousand commissars trained one error occured. For one thousand errors occured one wasn't corrected. That you have one bad commissar for million ever trained; I believe Imperium trained one million commisars, what do you think? And this unique humans - some not-so-commisarish commisar, not-so-Sororite Sororite, not-so-bureucratish bureucrat - give you astonishing results.

The problem is not that there is any deviation at all, it is that it is so obvious and so massive.

With Cain, the problem is that his very presence in the Commissariat does not make sense. You can have brutal Commissars, you can have paranoid Commissars, suicidal Commissars, tyrannical Commissars, inspirational Commissars. But Cain is someone who does not WANT to be a Commissar, so how exactly did he become one? The codex version of the Schola also trains civilian adepts. If he did not want to fight and get in danger, all he had to do was opt out.

The problem is that the Schola Progenium in Mitchell's novels obviously does not work like it does in the codices, starting with it not being segregated by gender. Hell, it does not even have Drill-Abbots!

And with Juliet, again, that is just not how the Sisterhood operates. If we were to apply the GW codex description, you are basically saying that a girl who was indoctrinated, mindwiped and brainwashed at the Schola Progenium from infancy, and then went on to serve as a novice in the Primary Convents, and then went on to serve as a fully-fledged Sister in one of the orders, and even got promoted ... and all this time nobody noticed she was so very different that she would betray the core tenets of the Sisterhood as soon as she'd become a teacher? Even though the Sisterhood practices such extreme levels of indoctrination and confession and trust/dependence upon one another?

Nope. I don't buy it. Not to mention that Sororitas novices still aren't trained in the Schola Progenium in the first place, at least not in codex material.

So you will take this uncommon people and put them to your somekind of test poligon for uncommon things, such as Old Ones artefacts. You will put them to Drill-Abbots position, because you can.

But Sandy Mitchell does not use Drill-Abbots in his novels. Cain remains a Commissar, Juliet remains a Sororitas, as can be clearly seen by their garb and how they are addressed by other characters. This is just yet another obvious difference. Sandy Mitchell simply has a different interpretation of the setting. Why can't you see and accept this, given that the contradictions are so clear and manifold?

And Mitchell is by far not the only author; see below. Given how 40k has no canon (by Black Library author statement), I just don't see the problem here. It's a matter of taste and preferences.

Still fails to explain why they didn't recharge their existing packs...

Were they perhaps broken or used so much that they could not be charged to full power anymore, like it happens with household batteries? It's the only way it'd make sense...

But it's worth pointing out that it really isn't uncommon to have Abnett use a different interpretation on various details. Be it with his Space Marines being quite a bit larger than the 7 feet codex description, or that he has Servitors(!) who are emotional and can panic or curse, so actually being more like ordinary cyborgs rather than lobotomised fleshbots.

There's a reason they call it "Abnettverse".

Still, he writes some good stuff, and some of it can make for good inspiration even when one prefers the codex vision.

Wait. First of all Cain is a RETIRED Comissar in Cain Last Stand, it's definitely said. Yes, they call him "commisar", so we can address retired officer by his rank. If one of my teachers in university is a honored hero who's statues builded here and there, who is known as one of the best officers my country ever have I definitely can name him by his retired rank.

And why should Drill-Abbot hear Cain's wishes? They believed he can be good Commissar, they put him be the one. He can hate it, who the hell asks him?!

It's good question can ever be female commisar though. But Cain himself definitely learned in School with separate teaching, and he meets girls on sport only.

Also. There was some biography of Julien we don't know. Sororite CAN betray teachings of her order, there is special war machine for it. Yes, maybe Juliet should pilot one, we don't know, but Cain should be shooted more then once, and we know why he isn't.

And, I'm afraid you don't read Cain Last Stand good enough. I have translated version of the book, but in some hours I'll take English version and take some cites.

Well. Cites.

First question: why Schola where Cain works doesn't use Drill Abbot?

Answer - it does.

"A party of youths was down on the firing range, blowing cardboard targets to confetti under the watchful eye of one of the drill abbots, while over to our left a squad of early adolescents was embarking on a run up one of the nearby mountains, urged on by their proctors."

Second question: why only military education and why Cain as Commissar?

Answer: "The bulk of the education provided at a schola progenium is the same whichever branch of Imperial service the student eventually enters; after this was determined in their early teens, the specialised training provided by Cain and his colleagues would begin. Although he's never specific about the matter, the cadets under his tutelage would have been between thirteen and seventeen standard years of age, the younger ones still spending part of their time following a more general academic curriculum."

Third question: why Sororites progeny here?

Answer: "Although most recruits to the Adepta Sororitas are, of course, trained in their own convents, it's by no means unusual to have a Battle Sister or two attached to a schola progenium, since many of the girls taken in by them are likely to feel a calling to join their ranks. Sister Julien would see to their initial induction, assessing which of the aspirants were best suited to the Ordos Militant, Hospitaller, Famulous, or what have you, and which were better redirected along other paths altogether."

Still fails to explain why they didn't recharge their existing packs...

Because like any other batteries, you can't charge them undefinitely before they lose efficiency. Otherwise, they woulnd't ask for more. In Gaunt's Ghost, they regularly recharge their power packs. It's not just THE solution.

Remember they went throught many theaters before that; they recharged them, they cooked them.

Their battery pack weren't worth a thing in the end.

Which is among one of many reasons why I don't think Gaunt's Ghosts are really 40k novels, but generic military sci fi with a 40k sheen over it

Well, welcome to any book with Imperial Guard or Space Marines inside.

If Gaunt's Ghosts arent 40k novels, there aren't much 40k novels.

So the codex explicitly pushes compatibility here - and let's be honest, there would be no reason for Imperial Law demanding standardised supplies if they weren't meant to be exchangeable. This is also where the Standard Template Constructs come in, by the way. With how they were described, these systems modify and print out equipment suitable for localised production, so that for example a Valhallan and a Cadian lasgun will use different materials due to availability. One may have a stock of wood, the other of metal, and one may feature a built-in scope .. but the parts and in particular the internals will still be interchangeable as they were printed according to the same universal STC standard, and there is no reason for them to be different.

Standard Template Constructs that aren't accessible to everyone. Standard template construct so standard that they got many template of Baneblade or Leman Russ.

The truth is, we can't even build assault rifles that are compatible between countries. Even with something as the AdMech and standardisation policies, we can't expect 100% of the stuff used to be compatible between two sectors. That there are 3-4 or even 10 type of charge pack for lasgun would be surprising, even with all that is done, I would think more like there are hundreds of patterens, which wouldn't still be a lot in a universe so large as 40k.

If we where that standardised in the 40k universe, then why Leman Russ tanks run with multi-fuel engines to be sure that they can drink any form of fuel? If everything was standardise, I think that Prometheum would be also of a standardised grade and use, which isn't the case. Then why this exception and no others?

As you said often, Lynata, there is no canon. Many novels treat of equipment that are divergent or needs a very talentful tech adepts to mend different parts together. We can say that in general, technology in the Imperium is highly uniform and standardised, but I can't say nor accept that there is only one way of doing a power pack for a lasgun when demands and construction is so big.

If Gaunt's Ghosts arent 40k novels, there aren't much 40k novels.

How trigger happy can a commissar really be with his own men ?

His men are all human. They all have weapons that can kill him. They are in a warzone. If they shoot him they have two easily believed lies they can use to cover it up:

- The enemy got him.

- A specific guardsman shot him and did not survive their attempt to capture him.

A large part of a commissars education would have to be identifying where that line is and staying on the side where he doesn't die to friendly fire. Propaganda helps. If everyone believes the typical commissar is much worse than they really are, a lot of guardsmen will be unwilling to risk the replacement commissar being worse than their current one.

The problem with propaganda over the long term is that people believing it start shaping policy. Leading to someone thinking it's a good idea to train a commissar to meet the propaganda. The guardsmen meet this commissar, see how bad he is and decide that the next commissar can't be any worse. So they shoot him so they can operate a few months before the replacement is assigned. The people who trained that commissar hear that he died heroically against the enemy and keep doing what they are doing.

Third question: why Sororites progeny here?

Answer: "Although most recruits to the Adepta Sororitas are, of course, trained in their own convents, it's by no means unusual to have a Battle Sister or two attached to a schola progenium, since many of the girls taken in by them are likely to feel a calling to join their ranks. Sister Julien would see to their initial induction, assessing which of the aspirants were best suited to the Ordos Militant, Hospitaller, Famulous, or what have you, and which were better redirected along other paths altogether."

Which has a side benefit of keeping the unconventional Sister Julien away from the rest of the Sororitas. So they won't have to worry any more about her influencing anyone they are training/indoctrinating than they would have to worry about anyone else the girls met before being taken by the Sororitas.

Wait. First of all Cain is a RETIRED Comissar in Cain Last Stand, it's definitely said.

Which of course throws up another inconsistency, then. Why are the Commissar Cadets trained by a retired Commissar, but the Sororitas Novices by an active duty Sororitas?

Thank you for the quotes about the presence of Drill-Abbots, by the way, I did misremember that part.

And why should Drill-Abbot hear Cain's wishes? They believed he can be good Commissar, they put him be the one. He can hate it, who the hell asks him?!

If he hates it, he is no good Commissar. It's as simple as that. There is a list of requirements to achieve such a position, and a certain amount of religious fervour (which Cain lacks, as he admitted himself) is part of that, as are a militant mindset and selfless dedication to duty.

To be honest, the book would have made more sense if the author had explained his career with a bureaucratic error, or better yet, that Cain actually only stole his uniform in an attempt to flee a warzone, but then got caught swept up in the war effort and ran with it, just trying to stay alive. The latter in particular would have fit to the style of the series.

Also. There was some biography of Julien we don't know. Sororite CAN betray teachings of her order, there is special war machine for it. Yes, maybe Juliet should pilot one, we don't know, but Cain should be shooted more then once, and we know why he isn't.

You are referring to the Penitent Engine. Another option would be the Repentia corps. But you are ignoring that both are applied for far, far smaller sins than what Julien has done in this novel, which makes it all the more unbelievable that she is given free reign.

It simply does not gel with codex fluff, and whilst some differences between the various writings of the IP can be reconciled with clever thinking, I think people should accept the more obvious contradictions for what they are and move on. Especially if the entire book is full of these "special cases", up to and including a small army of Battle Sisters mind-controlled by some psyker.

Get this: The most psyker-resistant force in the Imperium after the Culexus Assassins, specialists in hunting down and guarding witches, described as incorruptible and with an in-built resistance against psychic powers ... and here an entire Mission worth of Sisters all falls under the sway of a psyker. Who doesn't manage to mind-control Cain, too.

Yeah, right.

It makes sense only in the context of this story, given how lax Sororitas indoctrination and how liberal their teachers seem to be in Mitchell's writings as opposed to what we see in the codices.

Answer: "The bulk of the education provided at a schola progenium is the same whichever branch of Imperial service the student eventually enters; after this was determined in their early teens, the specialised training provided by Cain and his colleagues would begin. Although he's never specific about the matter, the cadets under his tutelage would have been between thirteen and seventeen standard years of age, the younger ones still spending part of their time following a more general academic curriculum."

Answer: "Although most recruits to the Adepta Sororitas are, of course, trained in their own convents, it's by no means unusual to have a Battle Sister or two attached to a schola progenium, since many of the girls taken in by them are likely to feel a calling to join their ranks. Sister Julien would see to their initial induction, assessing which of the aspirants were best suited to the Ordos Militant, Hospitaller, Famulous, or what have you, and which were better redirected along other paths altogether."

Which is in clear contradiction to Games Workshop's take on Commissar and Sororitas training.

The novel tries to circumvent this bit with some wishy-washy annotation by Inquisitor Veil such as "yeah but this Schola is special", but this is still the novel conflicting with the codex source. GW material is very clear about this being an absolute fact (in the context of its own representation of the setting, obviously not for the entire franchise) ... and just because the novel has some character say "no it isn't" it does not remove the contradiction.

The same goes for Inquisitor Veil's annotation regarding the Sororitas supposedly not having a rule against sexual relationships, by the way. So you could actually be quite correct when you say that Julien's presence is not a problem ... because the Sororitas in Mitchell's version of the setting are simply a lot more liberal than GW wrote them.

Which also explains how they can be so easily mind-controlled.

So the story in itself makes perfect sense. It just doesn't fit in with codex fluff.

Standard Template Constructs that aren't accessible to everyone. Standard template construct so standard that they got many template of Baneblade or Leman Russ.

Which are all still standardised for ease of maintenance and repair, according to codex writing.

On a sidenote, the only reason we humans on contemporary Earth aren't building standardised weapons is because we don't bother enough. We don't have an STC to go around, we only have hundreds of weapons manufacturers all promoting their own individual ideas.

I think it's actually a result of our capitalist economy that favours competition over cooperation, because the old Soviets were quite successful here!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47#Outside_of_the_Soviet_Union.2FRussian_Federation

On a sidenote, if you say that every Leman Russ has a multi-fuel engine to make sure it can take any kind of fuel, I think that is actually an argument in my favour rather than yours.

As you said often, Lynata, there is no canon. Many novels treat of equipment that are divergent or needs a very talentful tech adepts to mend different parts together. We can say that in general, technology in the Imperium is highly uniform and standardised, but I can't say nor accept that there is only one way of doing a power pack for a lasgun when demands and construction is so big.

And exactly because there is no canon, I don't understand why we cannot simply accept these obvious differences between novels and codices, and call it a day.

Well, my main problem with Gaunt's Ghosts is completly different viewpoint about Comissar role. I just can't get how, in Abnett thoughts, Comissar differ from any other commanding officer. How comissar-colonel differ from just simple colonel?..

As far as I recall, Abnett wanted to have Gaunt be both a regimental leader and a Commissar in personal union. I think he should have decided whether he wants to write about a Commissar or a Colonel, but ... it's his story.

His men are all human. They all have weapons that can kill him. They are in a warzone. If they shoot him they have two easily believed lies they can use to cover it up:

- The enemy got him.

- A specific guardsman shot him and did not survive their attempt to capture him.

GW material actually deals with this aspect of Commissars, too. So much that Catachan regiments played with 3rd Edition Codex Catachans have their own special rule for it, called "Oops, sorry sir" .

For a description on how a Commissar manages to gain the respect of the regiment, though, I recommend reading the 2nd Edition Codex Imperial Guard.

Which has a side benefit of keeping the unconventional Sister Julien away from the rest of the Sororitas. So they won't have to worry any more about her influencing anyone they are training/indoctrinating than they would have to worry about anyone else the girls met before being taken by the Sororitas.

... wouldn't it be far more logical to just assign a better/proper teacher? Like the Orders Famulous instructors that normally do this job in GW's version of the setting?

Which begs the question: How many guardsmen are expected to survive long enough for that to happen ?

This does raise an interesting point. It does seem fairly unbelievable that all of those rechargeable charge packs manage to break down at the same time. Is the reader to assume that every single trooper in the regiment fired a similar amount of shots over the years of their service? Including the usage of all reserve packs available to the regiment?

Well, my main problem with Gaunt's Ghosts is completly different viewpoint about Comissar role. I just can't get how, in Abnett thoughts, Comissar differ from any other commanding officer. How comissar-colonel differ from just simple colonel?..

Well, excepting the special role of gaunt, all the commissars we see in books are commissars as described in the codex. Guys that shoot cowards and enhance morale, which of the two techniques he use? Depending on the situation.

As far as I recall, Abnett wanted to have Gaunt be both a regimental leader and a Commissar in personal union. I think he should have decided whether he wants to write about a Commissar or a Colonel, but ... it's his story.

We have plenty of heroes in the 40k stories that transcend (I don't know if this word do exist in english) the limits of their station to become more. This is just one more case. 40k fluff is full of them, I don't see why it wouldn't be alright for a hero to get a pat on the back and a title to go with it, when they do it often, everywhere in the fluff. 40k is full of over the top, this is just another one.

If he hates it, he is no good Commissar. It's as simple as that. There is a list of requirements to achieve such a position, and a certain amount of religious fervour (which Cain lacks, as he admitted himself) is part of that, as are a militant mindset and selfless dedication to duty.

Agreed. I read the first book of Cain serie but I disliked it too much. I can accept variation of the fluff (as we say, there is no real canon), but it's going too far for my liking. The points you get are the same I have at this level.

Which are all still standardised for ease of maintenance and repair, according to codex writing.

Yes, between themselves. But it is no variant if it's totally compatible. So there are differences that aren't compatible. Of course you can put a Mitsubishi Eclipse engine in a Mitsubishi Gallant, but you can't necessarily put the timing belt of one the engine of the other. These are standardised "mitsubishi gallant/eclipse" pieces, but they aren't necessarily compatible with those of other patterns of car. Same for dodge vs Chrysler cars.

You can have many standard template, they won't necessarily fit together from Mars to Agripinaa pattern, they do not have the same context of production, the same basic materials and such.

I think it's actually a result of our capitalist economy that favours competition over cooperation, because the old Soviets were quite successful here!

Agreed. But they are on a level of one continent, not a galaxy wide Empire where communications, technologies and science are always losing themselves.

On a sidenote, if you say that every Leman Russ has a multi-fuel engine to make sure it can take any kind of fuel, I think that is actually an argument in my favour rather than yours.

I recognise that standardisation is very strong in the Imperium, as I said in my last post. I don't recognise that it is perfect and that each every piece of similar equipment will fit together.

My example about fuel is: we can create grade of fuel (octane level and such), like octane 87, 89, 91, 95 (probably 93 between those last two) nowaday. If the Imperium standardised everything, why is a multifuel engine needed when the fuel should be the same everywhere? Why aren't they just creating Imperial Fuel that work as much in Leman Russes, cars, Chimera, Walkyrie and ground-to-orbit-craft? If charge packs are the same for all lasguns, why the fuel wouldn't be the same for all engines?

Because it can't, or the Imperium gives VIP cars and crafts engines that doesn't fit their utility.

So; either fuel is standardised and the multifuel engine is useless, or there isn't necessarily such a standardisation there, so there can be a lot of other cases like that in anything, like pattern of charge pack differing from imperial zones to another.

Perhaps the Tanith story could be excused by clinging to the "almost never" part in the last sentence of the quote, though, as in the regiment having been raised with the wrong weapons in the first place?

Possible. In the end, it just confirms what I say; this almost never must happen a sh*t ton of times in a galaxy that big. Even a sector is something too big to standardise.

I must say that I agree at 95% with the position you hold, just that I think there are multiple patterns, not all fitting together, but there is still a very high degree of standardisation.

But it's worth pointing out that it really isn't uncommon to have Abnett use a different interpretation on various details. Be it with his Space Marines being quite a bit larger than the 7 feet codex description, or that he has Servitors(!) who are emotional and can panic or curse, so actually being more like ordinary cyborgs rather than lobotomised fleshbots.

There's a reason they call it "Abnettverse".

I must admit I adhere more to his version of 40k. There is more details and depth in my opinion than in the "vanilla stuff" that GW posts, whitout going against what GW says (in my opinion), but where GW doesn't necessarily tread.

Also, about servitors, the term is quite confusing. You can be a servitor, by notions of language, without being a 40k lobotomised cyborg. You can be enhanced for the job you do, without being a 40k servitor. After all, we saw many illustrations where people were augmented to fit their duties.

I think it's actually a result of our capitalist economy that favours competition over cooperation, because the old Soviets were quite successful here!

If the Imperium standardised everything, why is a multifuel engine needed when the fuel should be the same everywhere

Because army-grade multifuel engine is not something "any octane number, aha!"

Army-grade multifuel engine can use everything that can burn. You're haven't gasoline but have ethanol? Good enough. Raw oil (well... it's seldom)? Natural gas? Of course. We used to joke our command-issue APC can run on regiment command orders - if we put them into engine and burn them.

P.S.

As far as I recall, Abnett wanted to have Gaunt be both a regimental leader and a Commissar in personal union. I think he should have decided whether he wants to write about a Commissar or a Colonel, but ... it's his story.

Every Emperor Day, all wards are assessed for aptitude, piety and dedication. Those found to excel in a particular area are split off into special classes , teaching them to become elite troopers of the Militarum Tempestus or even Cadet Commissars ready for transference to the Officio Prefectus. Upon coming of age, most students are sent on their way, unquestioningly adopting the role they have been conditioned for. Those without the aptitude for a role in the wider Imperium form a staff of menials and guards who can look to the needs of their founding orphanage. A very few vanish altogether, swept away under the auspices of mysterious Imperial officials to provide altogether more secretive services to the Imperium.

© Codex: Astra Militarum 6th ed.

Selection is mine.

Or take Tempestus Codex. Commissar entry says directly: "The strict training regimes of the Schola Progenium transform Commissars into exceptional combatants in their own right." And Schola Progenium entry there: " Within the training camps, most join the ranks of the Militarum Tempestus or Officio Perfectus whilst some daughters may be chosen to serve in the Adepta Sororitas... [next is about psykers and Inquisition; I can't copy/paste, so excuse me for cutting that particular lines]"

Still fails to explain why they didn't recharge their existing packs...

Were they perhaps broken or used so much that they could not be charged to full power anymore, like it happens with household batteries? It's the only way it'd make sense...

But it's worth pointing out that it really isn't uncommon to have Abnett use a different interpretation on various details. Be it with his Space Marines being quite a bit larger than the 7 feet codex description, or that he has Servitors(!) who are emotional and can panic or curse, so actually being more like ordinary cyborgs rather than lobotomised fleshbots.

There's a reason they call it "Abnettverse".

Still, he writes some good stuff, and some of it can make for good inspiration even when one prefers the codex vision.

Oh, not criticising his writing. I think many of his books are some of the better 40k novels (ok, some of the books are a bit phoned in when he was really churning them out). I actually think many of his best books are the non-Gaunt's Ghosts ones though. HIs Horus Heresy ones have mainly been good, and I thought the Eisenhorn series were very good.

I guess you can go the "worn out battery" route... just never anything that is suggested by the background (except by statements that using the "charge pack in the fire" route wears things out quickly. It would make sense.

Which is among one of many reasons why I don't think Gaunt's Ghosts are really 40k novels, but generic military sci fi with a 40k sheen over it

Well, welcome to any book with Imperial Guard or Space Marines inside.

If Gaunt's Ghosts arent 40k novels, there aren't much 40k novels.

Gaunt's Ghosts is full of all sorts of flavour clashes and outright contradictions with the 40k background. Low level Imperial Guard troops who know what Chaos is. People having an actual understanding of the high tech gear they use, rather than it being a black box they just know how to use by rote. Commissars are far too nice; I can't remember who his name is, but a "nice" Commissar should at best be like Gaunt's own Commissar, who wilfully manipulates people and the system because it serves the efficiency of the Imperial War machine, at least until he is told to stop by Gaunt. Most should be the fanatical unholy terrors that scare their men more than the 8 foot ork over there does, or cynical manipulators. The best one (from the books I have read so far) is probably the one from the Stalingrad-in-space book who gets the status of public hero... (can't remember the name again). The only Commissar like thing Gaunt ever does is execute the officer who shelled his regiment. Flamers which blow up tanks. Inconsistent use of the term "autocannon" and "assault cannon", often when he is often quite plainly describing a heavy stubber.

They are very much "Sharpe-in-Space". He wants to have a maverick officer who is dissapproved of by others, but 40k has the issue that this kind of officer is likely to get himself killed very quickly. So he makes him a Commissar. He also wants to write company level fiction, where you get to know all the key characters, but a company commander in 40k is just going to be a cog in the machine with little independence and/or flexibility, so he makes him a regimental commander. He then proceeds to write company level fiction anyway (which results in some things that really irritate me, like the times the regiment fights in platoon sized blobs, which would be picked-off piecemeal by any competent opposition, but because of power of plot they don't).

They are very much "Sharpe-in-Space". He wants to have a maverick officer who is dissapproved of by others, but 40k has the issue that this kind of officer is likely to get himself killed very quickly. So he makes him a Commissar. He also wants to write company level fiction, where you get to know all the key characters, but a company commander in 40k is just going to be a cog in the machine with little independence and/or flexibility, so he makes him a regimental commander. He then proceeds to write company level fiction anyway (which results in some things that really irritate me, like the times the regiment fights in platoon sized blobs, which would be picked-off piecemeal by any competent opposition, but because of power of plot they don't).

Gaunt's Ghosts is full of all sorts of flavour clashes and outright contradictions with the 40k background. Low level Imperial Guard troops who know what Chaos is. People having an actual understanding of the high tech gear they use, rather than it being a black box they just know how to use by rote. Commissars are far too nice; I can't remember who his name is, but a "nice" Commissar should at best be like Gaunt's own Commissar, who wilfully manipulates people and the system because it serves the efficiency of the Imperial War machine, at least until he is told to stop by Gaunt. Most should be the fanatical unholy terrors that scare their men more than the 8 foot ork over there does, or cynical manipulators. The best one (from the books I have read so far) is probably the one from the Stalingrad-in-space book who gets the status of public hero... (can't remember the name again). The only Commissar like thing Gaunt ever does is execute the officer who shelled his regiment. Flamers which blow up tanks. Inconsistent use of the term "autocannon" and "assault cannon", often when he is often quite plainly describing a heavy stubber.

We clearly didn't read the same book. I read Gaunt's Ghost serie many times, and commissars in the serie tends to be trigger happy ass holes. Sure, those of the regiment doesn't kill all the characters like that, but the characters generally are competent enough to not cross commissars. It's what I wait to see from a professionnal/elite regiment such as this one.

Characters are afraid of commissars, and when one is unpleased, everyone scatter away

As for technology, it is the same as in many stories, they illegaly tinker with their stuff without ad-mech's knowledge and get to know how it works. You know, like anyone who would play long enough with some stuff.

Finally, with character knowing about chaos. Well, in the context of the Sabbat Crusade, I **** hope so...they are in a crusade against it. You will kill all your competent troops after all battle and get fresh ones to do the next? No. You'll make them do all the crusade and then you'll see what you do. There is this possibiliy in the background for troops to survive such encounters after some tests (rare to see because of the time consumming process, but not impossible).

He wants to have a maverick officer who is dissapproved of by others, but 40k has the issue that this kind of officer is likely to get himself killed very quickly. So he makes him a Commissar. He also wants to write company level fiction, where you get to know all the key characters, but a company commander in 40k is just going to be a cog in the machine with little independence and/or flexibility, so he makes him a regimental commander. He then proceeds to write company level fiction anyway (which results in some things that really irritate me, like the times the regiment fights in platoon sized blobs, which would be picked-off piecemeal by any competent opposition, but because of power of plot they don't).

Well, if you read the books, you know very well that many people tried, even if he has the rank of commissar. You also see that the book work at a regimental level, not a company level.

We can criticize many inconsistencies in any books,but inventing troubles there aren't that's a personnal choice.

My example about fuel is: we can create grade of fuel (octane level and such), like octane 87, 89, 91, 95 (probably 93 between those last two) nowaday. If the Imperium standardised everything, why is a multifuel engine needed when the fuel should be the same everywhere? Why aren't they just creating Imperial Fuel that work as much in Leman Russes, cars, Chimera, Walkyrie and ground-to-orbit-craft? If charge packs are the same for all lasguns, why the fuel wouldn't be the same for all engines?

Because it can't, or the Imperium gives VIP cars and crafts engines that doesn't fit their utility.

So; either fuel is standardised and the multifuel engine is useless, or there isn't necessarily such a standardisation there, so there can be a lot of other cases like that in anything, like pattern of charge pack differing from imperial zones to another.

Well, I recall the books mentioning how the Leman Russ can run on anything, even wood ... so I assume this capability is not geared towards Imperial supply lines but rather local scavenging. As I've discussed in another thread some time ago, I believe the Imperial Guard as described in the original material largely operates like the Napoleonic armies and at least partially lives "off the land", so to say.

In a setting where space travel is a major problem and it's next to impossible to set up proper supply lines (the Imperium isn't even capable of adequately keeping track of its planets , much less the logistical needs of individual army regiments), it makes a wicked sort of sense to have the troops simply loot confiscate their food whenever possible (Codex Eye of Terror mentions wagon trains following at least the Cadian regiments, and 2E material about Bucharis' invasion of Fenris even talks about Guardsmen enslaving locals for forced labour).

Now, if you get your las ammo from generators, your food and water from locals ... then it makes sense to have vehicles capable of running on anything you can scavenge in your theatre of operations. At least that's how I'd reason it.

Still, at this point I'm inclined to say it's really just a matter of taste. Your position is not without merit, it's just not what I have arrived at -- but this is hardly surprising, with the material often being intentionally left open to interpretation.

I must admit I adhere more to his version of 40k. There is more details and depth in my opinion than in the "vanilla stuff" that GW posts, whitout going against what GW says (in my opinion), but where GW doesn't necessarily tread.

I would say GW actually writes a lot of detail! The problem is that it's so hard to find. How many people are aware of the Liber Sororitas, for example, just because it was printed only once in White Dwarf?

It's a real shame that stuff like this is so hard to find ...

Anyways, as for servitors, I have to say that the term used to be fairly solidly defined, and it was always a lobotomised, mindless husk horribly merged with machinery. I've talked about this topic some time ago, and provided codex quotes here in case you're interested.

***

Because:

2. There is no such thing as retired Sororite.

3. We don't really know Jullien status.

1. This particular retired Commissar is one the best Commissar ever known by segmentum military, Hero of Imperium, Liberator of Pragia, etc, etc, etc.

Sororitas can "retire" within their own organisation; a Sister too old for fighting (which Julien arguably is not; in fact she seems to be quite young given her hobbies and combat prowess) would move into a non-militant order:

"Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra, or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard."

-- WD Liber Sororitas

And I'd say Julien's status seems obvious when she is described as "Celestian veteran in charge of the novices", and still has her set of Sororitas-issue power armour.

It's an inconsistency. But pretty minor compared to the rest -- although this is the only one I can think of where the book seems to argue with itself.

Why? "He will used to." And he will.

By that logic, anyone could become a Commissar, Arbites or a Sororitas. If that's your opinion, okay -- it's hard to argue with something like that. But codex material does paint a different picture. Especially when it talks about the kinds of tests prospective Commissars have to endure to make the cut.

Does it mean there was not censorship in USSR? Or it means Ajubei was special? Let's say I'm writing a book about him. Is my interpretation another from interpretation any censorship researcher will have?

Jullien described as somebody special. Why do you believe she is somebody common, or normal, in Mitchell interpretation? In Cain's interpretation she definitly isn't.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. Given your example, are you saying that Julien was afforded special privileges because she had relatives or powerful friends in the Sororitas who would be totally okay with breaking all those rules?

And yes, Varan is damned VERY POWERFUL, and this kind of psykers described in fluff, and they are exact source to "beware the psyker". Adeptus Sororites aren't blanks, after all! And we don't know how easy they was controlled, btw.

Well, obviously this incident still lines up with a whole lot of "special cases" and "exceptions" and "unusual circumstances" in the novel.

GW: "Sisters are trained in the convents" - Mitchell: "This Schola is special."

GW: "Scholae are gender-segregated" - Mitchell: "This Schola is special."

GW: "Sisters are too hardcore for sex" - Mitchell: "Julien is special."

GW: "Sisters are resistant to corruption" - Mitchell: "This psyker is special."

GW: "Commissars are brainwashed killers" - Mitchell: "Cain is special."

The list goes on ...

... do you understand now why I have taken to such a negative view of these books? It is filled to the brim with exceptions and special snowflakes.

But it would not be nearly as bad and annoying if these stories would simply be taken for what they are. Instead, I've seen the entire fandom go up in flames about how it's totally okay for Sororitas to get laid because there's this one novel where it happens etc. With a single book, Sandy Mitchell has managed to utterly ruin the long-standing reputation of an entire tabletop faction. Congratulations, author!

Needless to say, it is partially also the fault of the fans for not understanding how 40k "canon" works, but Mitchell did throw the stone here.

Wait. That's EXACTLY what happened in Cain Last Stand - Cain as Commissar and his cadets as, well, cadets.

Cain lives in Schola, as his cadets do (at least I believe so) - so what? Is it forbidden?

Note how the source talks about Imperial Guard regiments . The text describes Cadet Commissars to be trained "on the spot", learning by doing.

That being said, the 6E Codex Militarum Tempestus also mentions so-called Scholae Prefectus where Commissars received advanced training after completing their Schola education. It's hard to tell whether this simply supersedes the WD source, or whether it goes together with it (so that Commissars first train in the Schola Prefectus, and then in a regiment), and I'd say the material allows people to choose either.

But there is nothing about the Schola.

In short, they are.

Every Emperor Day, all wards are assessed for aptitude, piety and dedication. Those found to excel in a particular area are split off into special classes , teaching them to become elite troopers of the Militarum Tempestus or even Cadet Commissars ready for transference to the Officio Prefectus. Upon coming of age, most students are sent on their way, unquestioningly adopting the role they have been conditioned for. Those without the aptitude for a role in the wider Imperium form a staff of menials and guards who can look to the needs of their founding orphanage. A very few vanish altogether, swept away under the auspices of mysterious Imperial officials to provide altogether more secretive services to the Imperium.

© Codex: Astra Militarum 6th ed.

Selection is mine.

Or take Tempestus Codex. Commissar entry says directly: "The strict training regimes of the Schola Progenium transform Commissars into exceptional combatants in their own right." And Schola Progenium entry there: " Within the training camps, most join the ranks of the Militarum Tempestus or Officio Perfectus whilst some daughters may be chosen to serve in the Adepta Sororitas... [next is about psykers and Inquisition; I can't copy/paste, so excuse me for cutting that particular lines]"

Well indeed! We seem to have discovered a discrepancy between two of GW's own books here. For the Codex Militarum Tempestus clearly says that the students are only divided up at the point they are embarking their ships:

"From dawn to dusk, amidst the slow incantation of ancient litanies and clouds of incense, cadets are divided according to their selected path. A good many discover that they are to head into the ranks of the Adeptus Terra. Those young women who show not only fine military skills but strong signs of faith are prepared to journey to training convents of the Adepta Sororitas, while others may joing the Adeptus Arbites. The most talented warriors are chosen for the Militarum Tempestus and Officio Prefectus. Each group is assigned to a ship and consequently dispatched to the appropriate Schola Tempestus or Schola Prefectus for more advanced training."

-- 6E C:MT p.12

This version also seems to be more in line with earlier material, not to mention that the Schola description in the newer Tempestus Codex is about eight times as long as the one in Codex Astra Militarum (4 pages with multiple parts vs a 1/2 page blurb). I know what I'm going to stick with, but if you want to go with shorter C:AM blurb because you prefer Mitchell's version, I can understand.

GW really messed up here, though! I'm used to more consistency from them, although it hasn't been the first time that a single book has portrayed things differently, before the next one went back to the previous description. The description of Space Marine armouries springs to mind, or how some books make it sound as if all female progena go to the Sisterhood and others say that only the best do, although these are the only examples I can recall off the top of my head.

With your Codex Tempestus quote, however, I think you have misinterpreted the text. Just because a sentence says that Schola Progenium training "transforms Commissars into exceptional combatants in their own right" does not mean that Commissars are trained at the Schola. It just means that something they've learned there makes them good fighters. And this is the same thing that the Schola teaches every progena. They all receive military training there, and C:MT even delivers an in-depth description of how this training looks like.

And yes, as the book confirms in more detail a few pages earlier, future Sororitas or Commissars are chosen in the Schola Progenium. On Selection Day. After which they are immediately shipped out and passed on to the Sisterhood or the Commissariat.

***

To be fair, much of this depends on what you've read where before. Even Imperial civilians can know about Chaos (the 2E C:SoB even mentions that the fight against Chaos part of the Imperial Creed!), and the Necromunda book makes technology sound very mundane, with gangers building their own guns and stuff.

Could this be the influence of the Dark Heresy RPG? I swear that I've never seen the "people don't know about Chaos" line before the RPG was around!

"Sharpe in Space" does sound quite amazing, but ultimately I have to agree that Commissars shouldn't be too buddy-buddy with their troops. It just seems to go against the theme of the setting. The same problem I see in the Cain novels. If the Imperium is akin to "Nazis in Space", then Mitchell and Abnett are basically trying to write humorous and light-hearted fiction about the equivalent of a Waffen-SS officer.

Not a perfect comparison, I know, but I can't think of a better fit -- just consider the mindset rather than the role. Either way, it feels weird for someone who has accepted this darker depiction of the Imperium.

By that logic, anyone could become a Commissar, Arbites or a Sororitas. If that's your opinion, okay -- it's hard to argue with something like that. But codex material does paint a different picture. Especially when it talks about the kinds of tests prospective Commissars have to endure to make the cut.

GW: "Scholae are gender-segregated" - Mitchell: "No problem with it, but I don't show you PROGENI, I show you commissar cadet squad. Is there any female commissars... well, that's complicated." It's really complicated, I believe they are, Mitchell believe they are (and gain some solid point why it should be), and there is no any known source that says they are not.

GW: "Sisters are too hardcore for sex" - Mitchell: "Julien is special, so everybody shocked; normal Sisters ARE ("Duty Calls" shows normal Sisters if you want them)".

GW: "Sisters are resistant to corruption" - Mitchell: "Maybe, but they are not Grey Knights who is the only faction in Imperium whose member never was corrupted." What about Sabathiel, who don't was mind-controlled but WILLINGLY gone into Slaanesh cult? Why do you believe psyker can't control Sister of Battle, after all, exactly? Yes, I know, you like them, you said it yourself. But where it's said they're immune to psy control?

Note how the source talks about Imperial Guard regiments . The text describes Cadet Commissars to be trained "on the spot", learning by doing.

GW really messed up here, though!

I used to believe "if I can invent an explanation how it isn't messing it isn't messing, because GW authors are not more stupid as I am". And I can invent explanation here. It means Schola have no one teaching programms, but some of them - well, that's exactly same how we have math classes, biology classes and so all.

It's not something "Schola progeni are Commissars or Sisters of Battle, with full priveleges or duties". It's "hey, we have classes that will join Commissariate after Schola, we have classes for Storm Troopers, we have classes for Sisters; we know what they will join, because, well, we're damned oppressive machine, we don't give them privilege of choice".

So yeah, everybody know that progeni who are studing in particular class will be Commissars, SoB, clerks and so on. Well, you will not educate future Commissar as such you will educate future clerk, after all - why will you teach future clerk to be master of chainsword or bolt weapon?!

Not EVERYBODY. EVERYBODY who is SELECTED for it.

So, everybody. Because as per your reasoning, anyone can get nominated, rather than the stringent requirements the codex material listed.

Not in Sororitas. Inquisition.

It's not pointed out in the story, but of course it would not be impossible -- it would even explain how she could have become this corrupted and break with both Sororitas and Schola standards without being censured for it. Needless to say, though, this would only make her even more special.

Of course, one could argue that the story does not support this interpretation by an Inquisitor commenting on Julien, and rather than suspecting the involvement of a colleague, Amberley Vail instead justifies her presence and behaviour with a blanket statement.

"Why of course Sororitas are having sex! Most just don't usually find the time for it."

Can you see how such a representation, conflicting with almost three decades of prior material, can change the perception of an entire faction?

Not exactly.

Yes, exactly. All the reasons you have listed are presented as exceptions and special cases. Exactly what I have just accused this book of.

It's also worth pointing out that GW material has never once mentioned or acknowledged the existence of Miriael Sabathiel - she is a character created by Sabertooth for the collectible card game, and featured in a short story by Dan Abnett. GW material specifically calls the Sisters "incorruptible", and there is one codex incident where the Grey Knights were dependent on SoB blood to preserve their resistance to corruption.

Not that I personally wouldn't agree with you on the topic of SoB corruption and mind control. I like Miriael's story and character, and her role as "the one who fell" (although she did not join willingly, as you attest, but rather was tortured and broken), and so she is part of my vision of 40k too. Still, you will have to admit that Julien's character is a far cry from Miriael's fate, and a new low for Sororitas representation for eroding the previously generally accepted chastity of the Sisters.

Anyways, this book isn't the first Black Library product by far that has given us mind-controlled or corrupted Sisters. But it does so alongside a ton of other special snowflakes and exceptions as if trying to set a new record for warping the readers' perception. It fits to a humorous and lighthearted work in the spirit of Flashman and Blackadder, which is exactly what the author intended. But personally, I'd recommend against trying to incorporate this representation into a more serious setting ... just like you shouldn't use Blackadder as a reference when talking about World War I.

Yes. Cain's squad is moved to work with IG (well, I don't recall it perfectly was is IG of PDF squad). They are going to be trained on the spot. They even asked Cain are they have full Commissar authority on this mission, and he confirms it - just orders to ask him before shoot anybody.

It was the PDF, and this only happened because of an invasion, not because it was part of the Schola's standard training regimen there.

Well, you will not educate future Commissar as such you will educate future clerk, after all - why will you teach future clerk to be master of chainsword or bolt weapon?!

To find out whether they're good with it? Note that military education including weapons drills have also been conducted in Nazi German Napola academies (which I've compared the Schola Progenium to earlier) on principle of being good for the mind ... even for those kids who wouldn't end up in the army (Napola was also intended to train future government officials, just like the Schola Progenium also supplies the Adeptus Administratum).

After all, how would you know who makes a good soldier or not before testing them at a later age? And if you do, why would you want to wait to provide them with weapons training for so many years when you could have started much earlier, and consequently end up with better graduates?

I used to believe "if I can invent an explanation how it isn't messing it isn't messing, because GW authors are not more stupid as I am". And I can invent explanation here.

I often use a similar approach - it can actually be fun to find ways to explain something that just seems to make no sense at first. However, there are limits to how I can apply this approach, and when my explanation clearly contradicts something printed elsewhere, then I have only two options: either stick to my guns and dismiss/ignore the source that says differently, or forget about the whole thing and just accept that the 40k franchise is full of different and conflicting interpretations, because this is how it's been set up by its creators.

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."

-- Andy Hoare

That is why I mentioned the principle of Occam's Razor earlier - the theory that of multiple competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions is usually the correct one. And in case of the Cain novels, it's "the author obviously had a completely different idea of the setting than the folks at GW". It would be different if the apparent contradictions would be fewer in number, or easy to justify by pointing to locational differences, but this isn't the case here. So for me, I'm dismissing these books as incompatible with my preferred perception of the setting as shaped by almost 30 years of GW codex fluff.

You may simply have a much more liberal threshold when it comes to accepting and incorporating these levels of artistic freedom, or you just aren't as used to a more hardcore representation of Commissars and Sororitas as I am, but either way ... this is the answer that the opening post was looking for.

So, everybody. Because as per your reasoning, anyone can get nominated, rather than the stringent requirements the codex material listed.

Yes, exactly. All the reasons you have listed are presented as exceptions and special cases. Exactly what I have just accused this book of.

Wait. Psyker is not "special". He is "powerful". What's wrong with it? We're agree there is nothing wrong with mind-controling Sororites. Why it's bad that they are?

GW material specifically calls the Sisters "incorruptible", and there is one codex incident where the Grey Knights were dependent on SoB blood to preserve their resistance to corruption.

Wait, seriously?

I didn't find "incorruptible" part. I have found that no Imperial organization is free from heresy and corruption but Grey Knights, and that Ordo Hereticus looking for Adepta Sororitas (why do you need if they are incorruptible?).

They are convicted and their conviction is, as I believe, very hard to break. But it can happen. And they haven't any special protection from psy attacks, well, except holy weapons and ability to kill psyker before he will use something sinister.

After all, they are Chamber Milita for Ordo Hereticus (who are social mostly), not for Ordo Malleus.

Where is "incorruptible" used? Why they haven't any immunity or even protection for telepathic contol on the table? There is SOME of them (1 result from 6) who have some special defence, but definitly not everybody.

P.S. And why Sisters Repentia is so common that they're aviable to be taken without any restrictions as Elites, if they're not possible?

It was the PDF, and this only happened because of an invasion, not because it was part of the Schola's standard training regimen there.

Of course, and I believe you train everybody with starting level.

But isn't it valid to learn adepta to use common weapons? Laspistols, lasguns, stabbers maybe? Why to give them mastery with commissariate signature weapons?

And just in case. I believe that "there is tons of special cases" is normal issue when we're trying to evaluate literature as literature. Gaunt is special all his points, he is special because he had destiny, he is special because he is Commissar-Colonel, he is special because his father sent him top-secret actual decoder ring years ago, his regiment is special because they are One and Only, they are special because they have astonishing stealth skills, and so on, it harder to find where Taniths are NOT special. It speaks for literature. I believe "Cain's Last Stand" is the worst Cain's books, it's kind of boring, and I'm not a fan for "aaaaaand then Jurgen steps in and totaly saves the day!"; it was good for first some times, but let's take some conscience (I must give Mitchell the credit though - he didn't give Cain psy immunity just because Cain is astonishing).

But it says nothing about setting author used. Yes, maybe Jullien is bad character, boring and uninteresting (I don't like her, and that's my opinions for her before). But is she 1) possible at all and 2) is she normal as author says?

How will you check is a child eglible to this requirement if not strict tests and evaluations?

Why, obviously by applying these strict tests and evaluations (as described in detail in the Codex Militarum Tempestus) - which would have quickly weeded out the likes of Cain and assigned them to more suitable positions.

Not "they are having sex" but "there is no celibacy". "None at all: contrary to popular belief, the Adepta Sororitas doesn't actually require its members to remain celibate, although few find the time to take advantage of the fact."

And as I know no codex give us exact vowes Sororite take, just their behavior.

"Taking advantage" of "not being celibate" obviously MEANS having sex.

And whilst there is no source that lists ALL of the Sisters' laws - that would be a pretty big book, because as per the examples provided in the Liber Sororitas they have at least 785 different rules, of which I have a feeling there'd be at least one dealing with interpersonal relations - GW fluff has consistently stated that they:

- "seek perfection of their martial skills in order to purify their minds and dedicate themselves utterly to the Emperor" (WD #211)

- are "part of a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime" (2E Codex Imperialis)

- believe that "penitence and self-mortification are a vital part of life as a devout servant of the Emperor, for only through extreme self-denial can one truly gain an inkling of the sacrifice that the master of Mankind Himself has made for His faithful subjects" (3E Codex Witch Hunters)

- are subjected to "the most severe punishment" for "the slightest deviation from approved stricture" (2E Codex Imperialis)

- believe that "the purpose of life is to suffer", and that "in suffering, they are one with the Emperor" (3E BRB)

- are committed to "a puritan lifestyle", part of which is "strict isolation" from outside influences (WD #211)

- that they are "utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their studies" (WD #211)

- that "their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure , there is only prayer and war" (WD #211)

If you truly, really absolutely can't see a contradiction here, then I'm out of ideas and we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

Wait. Psyker is not "special". He is "powerful". What's wrong with it? We're agree there is nothing wrong with mind-controling Sororites. Why it's bad that they are?

Because as I have pointed out before, this would be a very slim possibility that is tossed into the book together with a ton of other special snowflakes and exceptions and unique circumstances. And the more an author needs to make exceptions such as these to make their story work, the less respect I have for the end result of their labour, and them as a writer.

Wait, seriously?

I didn't find "incorruptible" part. I have found that no Imperial organization is free from heresy and corruption but Grey Knights, and that Ordo Hereticus looking for Adepta Sororitas (why do you need if they are incorruptible?).

This special protection has at times even been part of their tabletop rules, too.

"The Adepta Sororitas represent the epitome of faith and purity - witchcraft, heresy and mutation are anathema to them. Force weapons lose their ability to kill their target outright, simply count them as power weapons. Psychic powers targeted against any unit or character with the Adepta Sororitas special rule, or including them in its area of effect, are nullified and will not work on a D6 roll of 5+. Minor psychic powers have no effect on Adepta Sororitas units or characters at all, even those used by friendly psykers that would have a beneficial effect on them."

-- 3E Codex Witch Hunters

In the current 6th edition of the rules, this has sadly been streamlined into a simple +1 on "Deny the Witch" rolls, but you will agree that it obviously still means the same thing.

As a mechanic, the general idea of this resistance is actually present in Dark Heresy rules as well. The ruleset offers a Talent that lets you roll Willpower to "dodge" psychic attacks as a non-psyker. Combined with the above, it'd simply be that all Sororitas gain this talent as part of their purity-focused lifestyle.

P.S. And why Sisters Repentia is so common that they're aviable to be taken without any restrictions as Elites, if they're not possible?

I've explained this before.

Because the Sisters are so hardcore, they take the slightest perceived sin -- even imagined ones -- as a potential reason to go Repentia.

Without wanting to pick up that book again, I shall believe you here -- but I distinctly remember it was not an Imperial Guard regiment.

But isn't it valid to learn adepta to use common weapons? Laspistols, lasguns, stabbers maybe? Why to give them mastery with commissariate signature weapons?

Personally, I don't believe progena - any progena - would be taught mastery with any weapon. The Schola provides them with an advanced understanding that will allow them to quickly gain mastery later on, after they've been passed on to other Imperial Adepta.

As the Codex Militarum Tempestus also points out, however, the Drill Abbots use the way the progena perform with these weapons as part of their evaluation. Like ... a teen who still flinches and closes their eyes after discharging a boltgun for the 100th time would get crossed off the list of potential future Commissars or Battle Sisters? That sort of stuff.

Not how I came to see the setting. She is too different from the core themes of the army, and too crass a deviation from everything GW has said before. If the Sororitas were less extreme ... but that's not how they were written in the material I've read and chosen to go by.

Like I said earlier, personally I'd just accept that Sandy Mitchell had a different idea about the setting. Blackadder is not an accurate portrayal of WW1, and Cain is not an accurate portrayal of the setting as explained in the codex.

That does not invalidate either as a source of fun and potential inspiration for your preferred setting. As a source, the Cain novels are just as "right" or "wrong" as GW codex material -- which means it's up to you. And if in Mitchell's world there can be a Commissar like Cain, why shouldn't there be Sisters like Julien? As Inquisitor Vail pointed out in her annotations, apparently their rules aren't as strict after all.

Man. I'd really like to go back through this entire topic and like everything Lynata has posted. It's been a long time since I've seen a debate carried out with ample citations, grammar, and a good mix of stubbornness and courtesy.

In my opinion, a lot of the discrepancies in the setting arise from different mediums needing to convey different things - the core rules for the universe are for a miniatures game, and need to justify an endless and bloody war without much actual humanization. This is why there aren't many strategy games with extraordinarily deep characters; the entire point is that you're churning things out of a factory to die en masse so that you can destroy another guy's factory. The point is in the strategy, and in the units, not the characters.

But for a book series, or an RPG, I think you might want to make things a little less dark. And some people take this really far, and make something that barely resembles 40k, and some people are a little more in keeping with the codices. My players wanted something a little different from industrial meat grinders and the Nazi-Catholic Church. So for my campaigns, I've gone with sort of a dark WWII vibe, trying to strike a balance between the 'canon' grimness while trying to keep things from being too relentlessly depressing. And I think it's pretty natural that authors like Mitchell and Abnett went for a pretty tame version in their books.

The closest real-world analogy that I've found for 40K's grimness is the Battle of Stalingrad, with infantry shoved into the fight, retreat never an option, the secret police shooting anyone who tried to flee, fanatical loyalty (in actions, at least) being demanded of troops on both sides, and no real concern for civilian life. It was an incredibly lethal, hopeless battle that the Soviets only managed to win through sheer stubbornness and ample reinforcements. Some of the commanders were incompetent (with at least one drunk officer ordering a whole company of new arrivals, still without weapons, to charge the enemy), supplies were short, and there were a lot of battlefield executions, sometimes for incredibly minor infractions.

What's "wrong" with the Cain books is entirely dependent on what kind of story you want to tell. There are many books set in the Battle of Stalingrad. There are books that offer a good overview, detailing the battle much as a strategy game would, with maneuvers and counter-maneuvers, mention of particular battle-altering events, what the commanders were doing, orders from Stalin and Hitler. Then there are books that follow characters through the battle, fictional or not. The characters that the books follow are never the soulless, drunk commanders ordering unarmed soldiers to their deaths repeatedly and executing anyone that forgets to salute. They're not the secret police, commandeering good gear and waiting behind the lines to shoot anyone who deserts. They're generally either exceptional soldiers, like Vasily Zaytsev, or soldiers who are just trying to get back home, or civilians caught in the violence. When we read about the people in these wars and battles, we don't want to read about someone who left their soul behind long ago, or a frightened, weaponless unit dashed to pieces against the enemy emplacements, or man so steeped in Soviet propaganda that he can't see the cost of the conflict around him. We want to read about humans, about heroes.

The difference being that Stalingrad was a real battle. What happened there is largely set in stone. We just have to pick and choose what sort of story we want to read about; it contained heroism and malevolence, both.

40K is entirely fictional. The universe shifts depending on who's writing, on the whims of Games Workshop, on how you were introduced to the universe. Cain is the product of someone who wanted to write something different; if you enjoy it, then you should enjoy it. If you want to run a campaign with that sort of feel, do it. The 'canon' level of grimdarkness is sort of set by the miniatures game; hopeless, endless war against enemies and corruption both. But that's not the universe I want to tell stories about. So just like Abnett and Mitchell, I've changed it to tell the story I want to tell.

I know that my universe is 'wrong' - the same way Cain's is wrong. The needs of an RPG are different from the needs of a strategy game; the needs of a book are different from reality. We adapt the universe until we see what we want to see; we adapt it for our needs. Find a middle ground with your players and run with it.

Lots of things in that post I can absolutely agree with! However, I wouldn't say your universe (or anyone elses) is 'wrong', at all. I mean, of course we all have our preferred interpretations, and to me, stuff like the Cain novels certainly does feel 'wrong', but at the same time we have to accept that it's really just a matter of taste. The creators of the franchise have explained that this differentiated and highly subjective perception is intended, and whilst I would prefer a more consistent approach ... who am I to argue with them? If the playerbase should accept any canon, then it ought to be these writers' decree that there isn't any.

That being said, I have to oppose the strict segregation between Grimdark and Heroism. You almost make it sound as if it would be impossible to set a book or novel (or an RPG) in Stalingrad without twisting historical facts, and I don't believe this to be true. What matters in such cases is perspective: What are you going to show, and what are you going to omit? The majority of stories we are exposed to are using this simple trick to twist the reader's perception of both the setting and its dramatis personae, without truly contradicting history.

In the case of Sandy Mitchell's Ciaphas Cain, though, one of the main problems in terms of matching portrayal is the author's insistence on using the role of Commissar to convey their story. The author would have had a much easier time to make their books fit in with the rest of the IP if he had opted to make their protagonist an Imperial Guard officer. To contrast this with your example of Stalingrad/WW2: it is far easier to make a book or movie where the protagonist is a heroic Wehrmacht officer, rather than one of the Waffen-SS -- and I am not referring to the controversy in choosing such a character for the role of hero, but rather the expectation that people will have of the Waffen-SS in general.

It most certainly does come down to what sort of story you want to tell and what sort of atmosphere you wish to invoke, but in lighthearted comedy you can afford to play with people's expectations a lot more than if you wanted to create a serious work. See the Germans in Hogan's Heroes vs the Japanese in Letters from Iwo Jima .

So if Sandy Mitchell wanted to make a 40k version of Blackadder and Flashman, as he himself has stated, then everything is working as intended. The question for us is whether we want our RPG to look like Blackadder and Flashman, too, or not. But this is something each of us has to answer for themselves.

In closing: You can absolutely make a good story about almost anything. In each war, there are heroes and cavaliers on every side. It just comes down to where you draw the line in terms of behaviour, because these heroes and cavaliers will still, to some degree, reflect the culture they have been brought up in. Sometimes, this means they will behave horribly, just because it's something they perceive as normal, from their point of view. If you don't want to show this, simply don't bring them into this sort of situation. But outside of comedy there is no good reason for why you'd have to write these characters as if they were obviously incapable of committing these acts, because that would not do them or the setting justice either.

Few authors manage to walk this narrow path, but those that do have my utmost respect. In terms of 40k, Commissars, Space Marines and Battle Sisters are all particularly difficult to write (at least unless you just want to do mindless bolter-porn), as details in their background clash with what we would perceive as positive action. That's why I like James Swallow -- he is one of only two Black Library authors ever who managed to write Sororitas in a way that made them viable, even likeable protagonists, without transgressing against the core themes of the army.

I think in some way this has to do with the skill of "writing bad guys" you actually like to read about. War of the Spider Queen takes the cake in this discipline, though.

Well, my problem is (beyond my English for which I'm sorry)... well.

I obviously see where we are disagree now so I'm not sure should I write it. But.

I can't see Imperium as error-proofed. I'm looking into Sororites book and I see that there are Repentia sisters, that they are common enough. You say it means they're very strict in their faith; but I believe it means that all that mind-scrubbing they have don't shield them from that little sins. That means Adepta Sororitas are NOT sin-proofed, that they CAN sin (at least in their own opinion). Yes, we can await normal Sister will go into Repentia when she commit that lesser sins; but their existence is a solid proof their conditioning isn't absolute. There is one organisation in Imperium whose conditioning is perfect and that's Grey Knights (and in my opinion they are very, very boring, but it isn't my point here).

After all, normal Sisters of Battle are shown in "Duty Calls". They sacrificed theirselves in the end of the novel because they believed Ordo Heretical Inquisitor (radical) who made them to help him in something that was declared heresy later. That's normal, that's something you expect from Sororite from Mitchell interpretation; why not?

BTW. I saw Blackadder, and I can't get how it's a model for Cain. Yes, Cain is light-hearted a bit (in his thoughts), but he IS a model Comissar by his actions, his situation are not absurd (well, they can be contradictial to, let's say, codexes, but they are not absurd). There is no masked German prince who disguised himself into waitress and had sex with Blackadder, and later disguised himself into a sheep and had sex with Blackadder colegue (and nobody suspected anything because, hell, he is great in disguising!). I can see what had Cain get from Flashman but can't see what from Blackadder.

That means Adepta Sororitas are NOT sin-proofed, that they CAN sin (at least in their own opinion). Yes, we can await normal Sister will go into Repentia when she commit that lesser sins; but their existence is a solid proof their conditioning isn't absolute.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. Yes, obviously the Sisters aren't perfect (nobody is, including the Grey Knights), but the important thing is that it's their intense conditioning that leads them to feel these insanely petty transgressions to be a "sin" that needs confession and penance in the first place. This ultimately means their threshold of what's acceptable is much, much lower - and the gap between this and something as polarising as Swallow's Juliet is pretty significant.

You don't just start to slack off from one day to another, and be a fanatical, brainwashed little tool in the morning and suddenly decide to drink alcohol, play games of chance or sleep around. If at all, this would be a gradual development taking many years to take hold, and the novel posits that the Sororitas are either too incompetent or too liberal to notice and do something against it. Neither of these two options seems to reflect the codex descriptions.

So for me, the discrepancy is too obvious to ignore, and I've made my choice as to which source I'm sticking to.

If you believe differently, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

After all, normal Sisters of Battle are shown in "Duty Calls". They sacrificed theirselves in the end of the novel because they believed Ordo Heretical Inquisitor (radical) who made them to help him in something that was declared heresy later. That's normal, that's something you expect from Sororite from Mitchell interpretation; why not?

But you don't know what they do in private -- they behave in battle exactly as Julien did, and the author just didn't extrapolate on their actual personalities. Given how the Inquisitor in that novel claimed that Battle Sisters are supposedly free to **** who they want, who's to say that squad didn't just come straight out of a brothel? After all, they could have gone to a Schola where they had someone like Julien as example.

That's the insidious thing about subversive influence: once it has started to creep into education of the young, it's just a matter of time until these students become officers in their own right, and discipline begins to suffer. This is actually why - in GW's interpretation of the setting - a lot of Space Marine Chapters have adopted rather silly and outright harmful traditions: they picked it up from the natives of the worlds they govern and recruit from. You wanna become a Salamander Space Marine? Well, better hope you're good at blacksmithing...

I can see what had Cain get from Flashman but can't see what from Blackadder.

The author could have meant a specific season - have you watched the WW1 episodes? There, the overlap to 40k is (obviously) much clearer, starting with the setting itself, but also Blackadder's role as an officer in the infantry.

I can see what had Cain get from Flashman but can't see what from Blackadder.

The author could have meant a specific season - have you watched the WW1 episodes? There, the overlap to 40k is (obviously) much clearer, starting with the setting itself, but also Blackadder's role as an officer in the infantry.

Jurgen = Baldrick

Yes, obviously the Sisters aren't perfect (nobody is, including the Grey Knights), but the important thing is that it's their intense conditioning that leads them to feel these insanely petty transgressions to be a "sin" that needs confession and penance in the first place.

Problem is where is it ends?

You see, in my opinion Imperium is corrupted (not by Chaos influence, but in political sense). That Scholas that give us a lot of sisters (every codex speak about Sisters who started in Schola - "Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas"; btw, that 2nd ed codex tells us: "By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certan direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on this talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations ", if it's not speaking about different teaching programms what the hell it's speaking?) give us all that corrupted bureucracy.

And yes, you don't have to go into Pentinent for every sin, but "in extreme cases" - at least that's what rulebook says. So there is some kind of grey area, and it can be influenced.

You see problem as I see it now is not "I take Mitchell, you take codex". Problem is I look for codex some another way you do. I see corrupt Imperium here, where no branch is free from that corruption. I see some kind of system attacked by Nurgle filled with apathy. I see a system that created and supported to empower bad, corrupted nobles, priests and lords, and if Sisters are so strict and fanatical why do they allow that system to exist?

After all, they could have gone to a Schola where they had someone like Julien as example.

Yes: and they see a model Sister, just as Comissar Cadets see model Comissar in Cain.

You don't just start to slack off from one day to another, and be a fanatical, brainwashed little tool in the morning and suddenly decide to drink alcohol, play games of chance or sleep around.

But of course. Jullien definitly has story of her own, we just don't know it (and I'm not intrested, to be honest).

Given how the Inquisitor in that novel claimed that Battle Sisters are supposedly free to **** who they want, who's to say that squad didn't just come straight out of a brothel?

Well, that Inquisitor claims they don't do it. They haven't exact celibacy vow, but they don't use that opportunity. I belive it's kind of joke by Amberly, by the way, she used to in her comments.

The author could have meant a specific season - have you watched the WW1 episodes? There, the overlap to 40k is (obviously) much clearer, starting with the setting itself, but also Blackadder's role as an officer in the infantry.

Jurgen = Baldrick

That's what I thought, too.

Problem is where is it ends?

That is no problem unless you want to make it one. The "grey area" you are talking about is an ocean, whereas I see it more like a puddle.

We obviously have very different ideas of the Sisterhood, and I allow my interpretation to be guided by what it says in the codex. And like I said, for me, the gap between that and Julien is quite simply way too big, and her representation in that novel is anathema to the very theme of the Sororitas as an army of fanatical zealots focused on spiritual and physical purity.

Honestly, take that away from a Sister and what are you left with? Girl from next door in powered armour? It would be like stripping a Space Marine of their genetical enhancements, using some pseudo-excuse such as totally botched implantation and enhancement processes. Flaws which, by the way, also exist in GW's setting, but I would be quite surprised if I ever see a 40k fan to take that as a reason to have Marines who are not stronger or more resilient than ordinary humans. Everyone would rise up in bewilderment, saying "that's no Space Marine" -- so what is different here?

By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certan direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on this talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations", if it's not speaking about different teaching programms what the hell it's speaking?

Good find. I suppose it would make sense to separate training course focuses on mental and physical conditioning based on aptitude, for the reasons you've mentioned earlier.

Of course, that still would not mean they'd have dedicated "Storm Trooper classes" or "Commissar classes" or "Sororitas classes" etc there, unless you don't mind contradicting the Tempestus' codex mentioning that such a detailed selection would only take place on the day they are shipped off.

Which is in line with earlier material from GW, too:

"Regardless of her unknown roots, it is evident that Stern was singled out from an early age as a candidate for the Adepta Sororitas. The Arch Drill-abbot of the Schola Progenium submitted her for consideration, and one Sister Patricia of the Order of the Holy Seal accepted her, shipping her out on the next available vessel bound for Terra."

-- Villainy & Infamy web article #2 : Ephrael Stern

"Raised at the Schola Progenium facility at Antigone's Harbour, Rosetta Anastasia was singled out by the Order Famulous as a potential recruit for the Adepta Sororitas at the age of twelve years."

-- d100 Inquisitor characters : Sister Anastasia

Even the Cain novel has adopted the stance that Sororitas Novices are trained by their own people - it only introduced the weird (and codex-contradictory) situation of this not being the case for Commissars, for whatever reason.

Either way, to date, the Tempestus codex probably features the most detailed account of how Schola Progenium education looks like, and what exactly happens at its end. Even more detailed than this novel, where such details of course take a backseat in favour of telling an engaging story.

Yes: and they see a model Sister, just as Comissar Cadets see model Comissar in Cain.

I've been on enough school trips to know that it isn't that hard to see the real people behind the teacher's public face the longer you stick with them in such an environment.

Unless Julien is very, very good at being a hypocrite, I guess?

But of course. Jullien definitly has story of her own, we just don't know it

And that would be a problem. Because you should not portray such an obvious exception from the very theme of a faction without explaining the background, else you leave people wondering and second-guessing (like I do here).

However, I'd say the author made it clear that Julien is not actually an exception, with the annotation by Inquisitor Vail who is obviously not surprised to hear of this behaviour, and even explains that there are supposedly no rules against it. So James Swallow's representation of the "real" Sisterhood is basically a slacker organisation that is only good at maintaining the public face of pure and innocent warrior angels, when in actuality they have no problem dropping their trousers if they'd just find the time for it.

That is what the novel expresses with these annotations.

Well, that Inquisitor claims they don't do it. They haven't exact celibacy vow, but they don't use that opportunity. I belive it's kind of joke by Amberly, by the way, she used to in her comments.

That sounds like a weird rationale. Given the material they deal with, these annotations are obviously meant by Swallow (or his editor at Black Library?) to explain and justify certain discrepancies from what people might be used to from other sources, such as GW codices, to the reader in an in-character manner. And even if viewed entirely in-universe, why should this Inquisitor make such weird jokes in an official essay meant for other Inquisitors?

"Where necessary I have, as usual, added explanatory footnotes and material from other sources in order to provide a wider context to their author's perennially self-centered view of events; the rest is entirely Cain's own words."

-- Amberley Vail in Cain's Last Stand

It could just be a language thing, but to me, this really does not sound like a joke:

"None at all: contrary to popular belief, the Adepta Sororitas doesn't actually require its members to remain celibate, although few find the time to take advantage of the fact."

-- Amberley Vail in Cain's Last Stand

----> "Well, you know, the only reason we don't sleep with all the men or women we like is because we're pretty busy most of the time!"

Honestly, taking the time to write up a sexual relationship with a Sororitas that had absolutely nothing to add to the story makes me wonder about the author's intentions. I mean, undermining the Sisterhood's reputation in the playerbase and providing inspiration for cheap "rule #34" fanservice is pretty much her main purpose in that book, is it not? I swear, whenever I see one of those "are Space Marines and Battle Sisters allowed to have sex" threads popping up somewhere on the internet, it is a safe bet that somebody will mention this one book. It's almost like Godwin's Law.

Mitchell's Law: "Once a 40k discussion involves the terms sex and Sororitas, the probability of a user mentioning Cain's Last Stand approaches 1."